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Heresy 206: of Starks and Walls


Black Crow

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's funny how the same information can convey two totally different theories. You see a Wall to keep the southron folks out, and I see a Wall to keep northern wildlings in! 

It may be that it could have done both: kept the southerners out, and penned the Free Folk in like cattle, as sacrifice fodder. 
 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Do you believe the Wall was built by magic? If so, how do you explain that the Watch has passageways and tunnels dug through it? If magic is responsible for growing the Wall, then it should be impossible to keep any tunnels open.

A fair point, though I would add some caveats--even if the Wall was once "grown" with magic, it may be that such growth required ongoing rituals/sorcery. 

And, reiterating this point again, it is possible for the Wall to be a mix of the mundane and the magic, for the oldest portions to be the result of sorcery, with more mundane additions made over the course of thousands of years, particularly if the era of the NK (which would still be relatively early in the Wall's life) was some kind of turning point.

eg, for LC One through Thirteen, the Wall is grown, and thereafter the Wall is built.

_______
 

It's also possible that the tunnels do have to be actively maintained, and would fill in given enough time and lack of care.

Many of the tunnels that Jon describes are actually wormways beneath the earth, and not tunnels through the ice. This is one of the specific instances where he is traveling through the Wall itself:

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They set out late that afternoon. The Wall had no gates as such, neither here at Castle Black nor anywhere along its three hundred miles. They led their horses down a narrow tunnel cut through the ice, cold dark walls pressing in around them as the passage twisted and turned. Three times their way was blocked by iron bars, and they had to stop while Bowen Marsh drew out his keys and unlocked the massive chains that secured them. Jon could sense the vast weight pressing down on him as he waited behind the Lord Steward. The air was colder than a tomb, and more still. He felt a strange relief when they reemerged into the afternoon light on the north side of the Wall.

Perhaps the builders are only maintaining a very small number of tunnels, given that there are only three manned castles. 

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14 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Perhaps the builders are only maintaining a very small number of tunnels, given that there are only three manned castles. 

The unmanned castles have their tunnels "packed with stone and rubble all frozen together until they were as impenetrable as the Wall itself."

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If the Wall is deteriorating and needs repair, then this assumption is support for the need to be a physical barrier.

if it’s magically made with ice magic, then this is contrary to keeping the Others contained, because it is said the Others can create amazing things with ice. How could anything made with ice magic protect from creatures made with ice magic? Furthermore why would white walkers put up a Wall when they seem to want to invade the realm and seek hot blood?

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

That would be the Black Gate which I believe is not only a physical opening through the ice but a metaphysical gateway that Tree-Bran uses when he contacts Ghost-Jon.  

As far as gates/doors go, that does seem the most straightforward answer.

Melisandre also seems to think she will be able to tap into the Wall--or that the mere act of being present at the Wall allows for great sorcery:

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She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

Can this increase in potency be strictly attributed to a bunch of wards, or is she tapping into some other magic that is also present at the Wall? I certainly suspect the latter, and as you say, the Black Gate seems a prime candidate to be associated with Melisandre's 'hinge.' 
 

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

The unmanned castles have their tunnels "packed with stone and rubble all frozen together until they were as impenetrable as the Wall itself."


Ah, I see. I was having trouble remembering whether or not the other tunnels had been addressed.

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31 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If the Wall is deteriorating and needs repair, then this assumption is support for the need to be a physical barrier.

if it’s magically made with ice magic, then this is contrary to keeping the Others contained, because it is said the Others can create amazing things with ice. How could anything made with ice magic protect from creatures made with ice magic? Furthermore why would white walkers put up a Wall when they seem to want to invade the realm and seek hot blood?

I think it blocks or absorbs cold magic but I think the Wall or the magic it encloses is a fire barrier.  Otherwise the ice wights would climb right over it.  I think the hint that there is a fire barrier is given when Orell's eagle flies above the Wall and is burned.  
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

If the carpet in the HoU is a visual representation of the magic woven into the Wall; it is broken in places, moldy and moth eaten; in other words, in a state of deterioration.  

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54 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

As far as gates/doors go, that does seem the most straightforward answer.

Melisandre also seems to think she will be able to tap into the Wall--or that the mere act of being present at the Wall allows for great sorcery:

Can this increase in potency be strictly attributed to a bunch of wards, or is she tapping into some other magic that is also present at the Wall? I certainly suspect the latter, and as you say, the Black Gate seems a prime candidate to be associated with Melisandre's 'hinge.' 
 


Ah, I see. I was having trouble remembering whether or not the other tunnels had been addressed.

 

The warding has begun unraveling and the door holding magic contained is open.

42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think it blocks or absorbs cold magic but I think the Wall or the magic it encloses is a fire barrier.  Otherwise the ice wights would climb right over it.  I think the hint that there is a fire barrier is given when Orell's eagle flies above the Wall and is burned.  
 

If the carpet in the HoU is a visual representation of the magic woven into the Wall; it is broken in places, moldy and moth eaten; in other words, in a state of deterioration.  

Melisandre claims responsibility for burning the eagle.

Jon’s dream has him using fire as a weapon against the Others.

I agree the spells are unraveling. Magic has been released.

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

The warding has begun unraveling and the door holding magic contained is open.

Melisandre claims responsibility for burning the eagle.

Jon’s dream has him using fire as a weapon against the Others.

I agree the spells are unraveling. Magic has been released.

Mel also takes credit for the death of three kings.

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6 hours ago, LynnS said:

This occurs beneath the Wall in it's foundation.  I wonder if this has something to do with the magic of the Wall weakening over time and if blood sacrifice keeps the magic strong.

Well, yes, but I would assume that Jon’s primary concern was this:

Quote

The outer door of studded oak had been hacked and broken and finally torn off its hinges, and one of the giants had crawled in through the splinters.

If there was a huge oak door there before, as long as it was standing it shouldn’t be letting in any light. Once he saw the light, I would assume that he knew that the door had been breached. 

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On 3/4/2018 at 10:56 AM, Feather Crystal said:

This is just a theory as well (no pun intended) and I am challenging it. It could have become the Black Gate because of the Nights King. It may have been an ordinary well up until the Nights King was overthrown. I theorize that the Nights King was forced down the well and imprisoned there, and the ice magic was sealed and warded there as well. (pun still unintended) The sapling that Bran and company saw growing up through the Nightfort is evidence that this ice magic is returning. The Ironborn lore of the Grey King descending to be with the Drowned God is the story of the Nights King. He descended down the well, and the ice magic - aka Elenei, "daughter" of the marriage between the goddess of the wind/Storm god with the sea god/Drowned God - was sealed with him.

Edited to add: the Other that the Nights King saw beyond the Wall was Elenei - the pale maiden called ice magic.

I’m not sure if Night’s King was forced down a well or not, but as far as being imprisoned there, the idea makes quite a bit of sense. If we follow the chronology that has been laid out for us, then the Wall was not built until after the end of the Long Night. However, we’re not given a date for when the Nightfort itself was constructed. That makes me wonder if, in fact, it might actually pre-date the Wall itself? It’s interesting to me that we have a Long Night, a building named the Nightfort, a force called the Night’s Watch and a character named Night’s King. (BTW. Something that struck me while looking at quotes. He’s always referred to as just plain Night’s King without a “the” in front of it.) It seems like they all should originate at the same time, no? But if they came first and the Wall came later, then why? And why so big? I would think that one reason you might need to build something so tall might be to contain something under it. Could that something be the Black Gate, with Night’s King imprisoned? I’d want to bury that under a whole lot of something myself. And if that’s the case, that weirwood sapling might not bode well at all.

The only other rational  reason that I can see for building such a huge structure would be to contain something that has the potential to be as equally huge. Maybe a whole lot of reflected light and burning cold that’s been contained beyond the Curtain of Light that’s been left as a remnant of Magical Waste? 

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On 3/4/2018 at 10:16 PM, JNR said:

Whether we imagine new blocks popping into existence completely formed, or blocks forming gradually from the bottom up layer by layer, such an event would be so astounding to the Watch as to blow minds from one end of it to the other.  I can't picture it ever being forgotten.

Or, you know, the blocks themselves could just grow... :dunno:

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On 3/6/2018 at 0:44 PM, Feather Crystal said:

If you've seen the movie Dr Strange you would understand what I'm talking about with regards to the time loops. Dormammu couldn't defeat Dr Strange, because using the Eye of Aggamotto he was able to put time in a continuous loop, so every time Dormammu thought he had killed Dr Strange, he came back again and the time loop repeated over and over until Dormammu gave up.

But, just to play devil’s advocate here, if BR was causing a time loop similar to that in Dr. Strange, then wouldn’t it contain the same characters over and over again? It would be the people that should be looping and not their actions. 

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On 3/7/2018 at 2:06 PM, Black Crow said:

A possible explanation may be that the Oath was transplanted there.

We have a plausible scenario where the nature of the Watch changed completely with the fall of the Nights King. The "New" Watch being bigger, building all those castles and actually standing guard on the Wall.But who were they? I mean the first ones, who were in place before the prisoners arrived.

The victory over the Nights King and his inhuman allies can be interpreted as a victory for Fire over Ice. What the oath can also be interpreted as is one sworn by those who tend the night fires on the walls of the red temples, guarding them as they watch for the dawn. There may no longer be an actual connection after all these years, but the similaries and the references to walls may point to a forgotten origin

I’m :dunno:not sure that you even need to go that far. If the Night’s Watch as an entity was formed during the Long Night, but the Wall itself didn’t come until after the Battle for the Dawn was won, I’d imagine that there might be a lot of walls that someone was required to watch. 

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

If the carpet in the HoU is a visual representation of the magic woven into the Wall; it is broken in places, moldy and moth eaten; in other words, in a state of deterioration.  

:agree:

I think that's a pretty fair point, everywhere we look magic has been decaying and decaying for a long time - until now. Why should the magic of the Wall be any different

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1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I’m :dunno:not sure that you even need to go that far. If the Night’s Watch as an entity was formed during the Long Night, but the Wall itself didn’t come until after the Battle for the Dawn was won, I’d imagine that there might be a lot of walls that someone was required to watch. 

Perfectly true, but if it has any meaning I would suggest its a long forgotten connection to the Red lot

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7 hours ago, Matthew. said:



Melisandre also seems to think she will be able to tap into the Wall--or that the mere act of being present at the Wall allows for great sorcery:

 

Yes indeedy, the impression she gave was that it was a broad mass of power which could be drawn upon rather than specific to one side or the other.

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7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If the Wall is deteriorating and needs repair, then this assumption is support for the need to be a physical barrier.

if it’s magically made with ice magic, then this is contrary to keeping the Others contained, because it is said the Others can create amazing things with ice. How could anything made with ice magic protect from creatures made with ice magic? Furthermore why would white walkers put up a Wall when they seem to want to invade the realm and seek hot blood?

This presupposes that the Wall was raised by men with a little help from Bob the Builder, but if it is in reality much older who knows what its original purpose was? As at Moat Cailin men [in this case the Watch] appear to be camping out in the ruins rather than integral to it.

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3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I’m not sure if Night’s King was forced down a well or not, but as far as being imprisoned there, the idea makes quite a bit of sense. If we follow the chronology that has been laid out for us, then the Wall was not built until after the end of the Long Night. However, we’re not given a date for when the Nightfort itself was constructed. That makes me wonder if, in fact, it might actually pre-date the Wall itself? It’s interesting to me that we have a Long Night, a building named the Nightfort, a force called the Night’s Watch and a character named Night’s King.

I am actually impressed that there are no mile long pages on the internet about the french/latin meaning of the word "fort"/fortis and how it literally translates to strong/stark. 

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6 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Well, yes, but I would assume that Jon’s primary concern was this:

If there was a huge oak door there before, as long as it was standing it shouldn’t be letting in any light. Once he saw the light, I would assume that he knew that the door had been breached. 

Yes, quite correct.  After reviewing that passage again with the additional text; the context does suggest that giants could be a big problem. :D

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12 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Well, yes, but I would assume that Jon’s primary concern was this...

If there was a huge oak door there before, as long as it was standing it shouldn’t be letting in any light. Once he saw the light, I would assume that he knew that the door had been breached. 

yes, very much an Oh S@#%! moment :D

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12 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I’m not sure if Night’s King was forced down a well or not, but as far as being imprisoned there, the idea makes quite a bit of sense. If we follow the chronology that has been laid out for us, then the Wall was not built until after the end of the Long Night. However, we’re not given a date for when the Nightfort itself was constructed. That makes me wonder if, in fact, it might actually pre-date the Wall itself? It’s interesting to me that we have a Long Night, a building named the Nightfort, a force called the Night’s Watch and a character named Night’s King. (BTW. Something that struck me while looking at quotes. He’s always referred to as just plain Night’s King without a “the” in front of it.) It seems like they all should originate at the same time, no? But if they came first and the Wall came later, then why? And why so big? I would think that one reason you might need to build something so tall might be to contain something under it. Could that something be the Black Gate, with Night’s King imprisoned? I’d want to bury that under a whole lot of something myself. And if that’s the case, that weirwood sapling might not bode well at all.

 

Again this comes back to the whole question of what the Wall actually is and why. Despite Feather's valiant efforts to argue otherwise, the Wall was never built to stop humans; latterly the Watch has focused on the Wildlings but its been made very clear from the very beginning that it had a different purpose. 

The real question, as I said earlier, is whether the Wall was indeed raised to stop the Others - as legend has it and despite all the contradictions, or whether it was built by somebody else entirely and the Watch are just camping out in the ruins of something they don't understand and have created those legends, that mythos, to explain it.

This has been characterised as a conflict between darkness and light, between night and day, as demonstrated by the Red Lot and their watchers on the walls, so it seems logical that the Nightfort was so named either because it was a place of darkness guarding the black gate, or because it was a bastion against the night - although in that case I would have expected a reference to the Light. Either way the use of the definite article and the name itself emphasises its original singularity.

Nights King? That he may be the door [which Bran only thinks looks like weirwood] was what I suggested a long time ago.A lhough we need to remember that the key to the door is the [Rh'llorist?] oath, the implication that the salt water which drops on Bran was a tear seems important

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