Heresy 206: of Starks and Walls

[Black Crow]

21 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Perhaps they wear what Westeros intends as pejorative ("beyond the Wall") as a badge of honor. In any case, I'll be blunt in my crackpottery, and say that I suspect that Joramun - and perhaps the Horned Lord as well - was something akin to a druid, rather than a monarch, raider, or conqueror. 

Its entirely possible that its a term of defiance, but that again underlines their ultimate origins on the sunny side of the Wall rather than belonging to Kingdoms lost during the Long Night as I originally supposed.

As to Joruman or anyone else I really wouldn't be surprised if he was a "druid" or other religious leader/magic user. Mance gathered the Free Folk together only in response to the supposed threat from the blue-eyed lot - what motivated those who marched behind Joruman, the Horned Lord, Grne and Gendel - and of course Bael?

[SirArthur]

I just decided to leave an afterthought regarding last heresy here. There are no quotes just thoughts about Grey: Grey King, Greyjoy, Warg King, Gaven Greywolf, Greystarks and Grey Wind. There is more Grey in the story. When Robb was asked why his wolf was named Grey Wind, he argued because the Wolf was so fast. But why Grey ? 

(there is also Greyscale, Grey death and Grey plague)

Is Grey an old bastard name ? Instead of being a white Stark on a grey field , grey stands for a grey Stark on a white field ? 

And if I fold the entire story together along the grey line I get a very straight story how a Brandon Stark defeated a warging bastard Stark who then fled to the Iron Islands. And if that bastard stark somehow falls together with the Night's King we have the same story told from many different angles. Just as an afterthought. Back to the Wall. 

 

and something for the Pike/Pyke - sea wolf connection:

Jon chuckled. "Perhaps you should do the same thing, little sister. Wed Tully to Stark in your arms."

"A wolf with a fish in its mouth?" It made her laugh. "That would look silly. Besides, if a girl can't fight, why should she have a coat of arms?"

Jon shrugged. "Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister." Arya I - aGoT

also:

"A mouse with wings would be a silly sight." - we all know that quote by now. Yeah, that parallel somehow sells me more on the Whent/Lothston idea. 

 

edit: However: flying in latin is "volantes". Since our sea wolf is also latin, I would actually go for the latin idea and drop the german bat. 

[redriver]

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

When Robb was asked why his wolf was named Grey Wind, he argued because the Wolf was so fast. But why Grey ? 

I may be going out on a limb here but could it be because the direwolf was grey coloured?   As is the direwolf in the Stark sigil.Tinfoil hat stuff I know.....

[redriver]

On 3/13/2018 at 5:53 PM, Feather Crystal said:

This is actually how I took it as well - that it is possible and that Bran would not be happy with the outcome. We've seen what happens when the dead are brought back to life. They are a shell of their former selves. Drogo was breathing, but that was about it, and Catelyn is filled with the desire for revenge against anyone associated with the Red Wedding.

No doubt you've already caught this but it did strike me as odd that Euron has a dragon binding Horn sounded at the Kingsmoot,whilst Sallhador Sahn claims that House Velaryion has a horn that can summon krakens from the deep.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, redriver said:

No doubt you've already caught this but it did strike me as odd that Euron has a dragon binding Horn sounded at the Kingsmoot,whilst Sallhador Sahn claims that House Velaryion has a horn that can summon krakens from the deep.

Do you think Euron’s horn will summon krakens or bind humans?

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I just decided to leave an afterthought regarding last heresy here. There are no quotes just thoughts about Grey: Grey King, Greyjoy, Warg King, Gaven Greywolf, Greystarks and Grey Wind. There is more Grey in the story. When Robb was asked why his wolf was named Grey Wind, he argued because the Wolf was so fast. But why Grey ? 

The use of the term is certainly widespread but on the other hand its so widespread as to be difficult to find a link. GRRM may simply like the word/term, but that being said if there is a significance it may be a symbolic one given that grey is also used to denote something ambiguous; neither black nor white - very much an underlying theme of his work

[SirArthur]

9 hours ago, redriver said:

I may be going out on a limb here but could it be because the direwolf was grey coloured?   As is the direwolf in the Stark sigil.Tinfoil hat stuff I know.....

Turns out my head inverted the arms of house Stark one time too often. The grey wolf on white is Stark. 

[Melifeather]

12 hours ago, SirArthur said:

And if I fold the entire story together along the grey line I get a very straight story how a Brandon Stark defeated a warging bastard Stark who then fled to the Iron Islands.

I don't believe the Warg King's last name is ever mentioned. The wildlings have skinchangers among them which is what a warg is. A warg is a skinchanger that slip into wolves. Wolves and direwolves are two separate creatures, yet cousins. Varamyr was a warg, because he could skinchange wolves and he did end up in One Eye, but it doesn't make him a Stark.

[SirArthur]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't believe the Warg King's last name is ever mentioned. 

Wasn't the "sea wolf" and sea dragon point the connection ? 

[Brad Stark]

The Stark married the daughters of the defeated Warg King.  Starks may not have been Wargs before this.

[redriver]

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Do you think Euron’s horn will summon krakens or bind humans?

Dragons.At least Moqorro seems to think so.But I'm sure there'll be a twist.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Wasn't the "sea wolf" and sea dragon point the connection ? 

Yes to the connections to "sea wolf" and dragon point. I thought you put forward the idea that the Warg King was a Stark bastard?

 

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The Stark married the daughters of the defeated Warg King.  Starks may not have been Wargs before this.

Good theory! Quite possible.

28 minutes ago, redriver said:

Dragons.At least Moqorro seems to think so.But I'm sure there'll be a twist.

I think so too. I suspect the horn of Joramun doesn't have the power to bring down the Wall. I think its for something else like dragon binding or even binding the wights to a white walker.

[SirArthur]

19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes to the connections to "sea wolf" and dragon point. I thought you put forward the idea that the Warg King was a Stark bastard?

Well yes. I fucked up my idea with the wrong arms but just to roll with it:

we (or at least I )assumed that the Warg King and the Grey King are the same. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Well yes. I fucked up my idea with the wrong arms but just to roll with it:

we (or at least I )assumed that the Warg King and the Grey King are the same. 

I tend to suspect that as well.

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The Stark married the daughters of the defeated Warg King.  Starks may not have been Wargs before this.

Depends, there's also a story about a Stark marrying the Marsh King's daughter but I'm more inclined to read these as Salt Wives [to borrow an Ironborn term] rather than diplomatic ones drawing those bloodlines into the family.

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

Depends, there's also a story about a Stark marrying the Marsh King's daughter but I'm more inclined to read these as Salt Wives [to borrow an Ironborn term] rather than diplomatic ones drawing those bloodlines into the family.

The Starks could be related to the Ironborn If its true that the wildlings are of Ironborn descent. Then they're related through Bael the Bard.

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I suspect the horn of Joramun doesn't have the power to bring down the Wall. I think its for something else like dragon binding or even binding the wights to a white walker.

I once read a theory that there are firewyrms in Westeros--that they carved out the tunnels and hollow hills, that Hardhome was their work, and that Joramun's Horn is a summoning horn that calls the "sleeping giants beneath the earth." 

Incidentally, while I think Euron's horn is indeed a Valyrian horn, I wonder whether or not he is also in possession of the aforementioned kraken horn (or that the "kraken horn" is a Valyrian horn); I'm thinking of this passage from the Forsaken

Spoilers TWOW:
 

Spoiler

He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him…

Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. 

I think it more likely that the above passage refers to individuals/factions rather than literal creatures, but that may relate to some of the alternative reads you raised of the "kraken horn." The Night's King binding his brothers with sorcery might also fall under this speculative umbrella.

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I once read a theory that there are firewyrms in Westeros--that they carved out the tunnels and hollow hills, that Hardhome was their work, and that Joramun's Horn is a summoning horn that calls the "sleeping giants beneath the earth." 

Incidentally, while I think Euron's horn is indeed a Valyrian horn, I wonder whether or not he is also in possession of the aforementioned kraken horn (or that the "kraken horn" is a Valyrian horn); I'm thinking of this passage from the Forsaken

Spoilers TWOW:
 

  Hide contents

He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him…

Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. 

I think it more likely that the above passage refers to individuals/factions rather than literal creatures, but that may relate to some of the alternative reads you raised of the "kraken horn." The Night's King binding his brothers with sorcery might also fall under this speculative umbrella.

I like this. Do you recall if the vision of Euron was a dream or not?

I was wondering if when he blew the horn at the Kingsmoot, did it bind their souls to him?

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Starks could be related to the Ironborn If its true that the wildlings are of Ironborn descent. Then they're related through Bael the Bard.

Nah, as I said before the Free Folk are too ethnically diverse to be a single people, far less Ironborn, all I was pointing out that taking the daughters of the conquered does not necessarily equate to lawful wedlock and dynastic union.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Incidentally, while I think Euron's horn is indeed a Valyrian horn, I wonder whether or not he is also in possession of the aforementioned kraken horn (or that the "kraken horn" is a Valyrian horn); I'm thinking of this passage from the Forsaken
 

  Hide contents

 

The two are not necessarily exclusive, the "glyphs" hint at Valyria and by extension a Valyrian horn but the actual horn itself on to which the Valyrian bits were added may have come from elsewhere