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Black Crow

Heresy 206: of Starks and Walls

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43 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I agree to a point. His visions [or at least the ones we know of] are those which Mel showed to him in her fires. As you say he's not a POV character, and this means that we don't know his true motivations. He never refers to having prophetic dreams, but why does he "follow" Mel? His dreams may have told him to or reinforced his sense of destiny. Somebody may be messing with his head without providing trailers for the future.

I think Mel's voice has a certain suggestive power and Stannis may be seeing what Mel wants him to see. 

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Posted (edited)

Prophetic dreams don’t necessarily indicate someone is a greenseer. A greenseer has both greendreams and the ability to skinchange. Then the final step is to be wedded to a weirwood.

The 3EC can come to a person and manipulate them via dreams.

Greenseer is a name associated with the Children of the Forest. I am anticipating that the mirror to them will be akin to a Fire Seer...someone that can see past, present, and future in flames and glass candles.

Dany may be having dreams, but maybe someone is manipulating her via dreams. 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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8 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Only in relation to it its size, not in absolute numbers. And this is fairly easy to proof, as a hundred year old dragon certainly is not even in the same size category as the wall. 

Do you mean dragons grow by magic and as slowly as the Wall?  Two problems:

(1) dragons have to eat, and we have no reason to think they will grow if never fed

(2) Dany's dragons are certainly growing much faster than the Wall possibly could have

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7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I would note that it is possible for two things to be simultaneously true: that the Wall is a structure of magic that will gradually reinforce and expand itself

The reinforcing I agree with.  In fact, that's essential or the Wall would only be... the Mound.  Ice just lacks the strength.

The expanding... since the Wall is made of discrete blocks, I'm not sure how it could possibly expand itself without the Watch noticing.  

Whether we imagine new blocks popping into existence completely formed, or blocks forming gradually from the bottom up layer by layer, such an event would be so astounding to the Watch as to blow minds from one end of it to the other.  I can't picture it ever being forgotten.

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2 hours ago, JNR said:

Whether we imagine new blocks popping into existence completely formed, or blocks forming gradually from the bottom up layer by layer, such an event would be so astounding to the Watch as to blow minds from one end of it to the other.  I can't picture it ever being forgotten.

Well, especially as relates to Brandon the Builder's "foundation stones," who knows what the Watch has forgotten? 

As per GRRM:

Quote

Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

But one thing I will say, for what it's worth -- more than ice went into the raising of the Wall. Remember, these are =fantasy= novels.

When he says more than ice went into raising the Wall, is he speaking exclusively about wards, or was there other magic involved as well? 

When GRRM says the narrative is as far removed from BtB as we are from Gilgamesh, he's under-exaggerating--we're a mere 4,100 years (give or take) removed from the Epic of Gilgamesh; the Watch may have been around for at least that long before they were Andalized. How much knowledge was lost to oral history inaccuracies, poor record keeping, and revisionist history?

It is an (IMO, not entirely believable) conceit of GRRM's world that modern men are mostly clueless about the Others, CotF magic, the Green Men that are sitting right there in the center of Westeros (if the Reeds are to be believed), and any number of other things that it seems absurd for men to have forgotten, and I don't see why the Wall would be any different.

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1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Well, especially as relates to Brandon the Builder's "foundation stones," who knows what the Watch has forgotten? 

As per GRRM:

When he says more than ice went into raising the Wall, is he speaking exclusively about wards, or was there other magic involved as well? 

When GRRM says the narrative is as far removed from BtB as we are from Gilgamesh, he's under-exaggerating--we're a mere 4,100 years (give or take) removed from the Epic of Gilgamesh; the Watch may have been around for at least that long before they were Andalized. How much knowledge was lost to oral history inaccuracies, poor record keeping, and revisionist history?

It is an (IMO, not entirely believable) conceit of GRRM's world that modern men are mostly clueless about the Others, CotF magic, the Green Men that are sitting right there in the center of Westeros (if the Reeds are to be believed), and any number of other things that it seems absurd for men to have forgotten, and I don't see why the Wall would be any different.

:agree:

Add to which, this whole story is one of mysteries in which little is as it seems and GRRM has constantly stressed that history, legends and prophecies are not to be trusted. Why then should we believe the literal truth of the most improbable of all? Revealing the truth about who raised the Wall and why - and why it must come down is going to be far more fundamental than who Jon Snow's mummy and daddy might have been.

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1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

 

When he says more than ice went into raising the Wall, is he speaking exclusively about wards, or was there other magic involved as well? 

 

Blood

Ygritte was under no doubt that it was evil

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Could Rhaegar have been tpwwp?  We have the Pact of Ice and Fire, promising the Starks a Targaryan princess,  and the clue about "Prince" being gender neutral.   If Lyanna and Rhegar actually were married,  it could have fulfilled the promise, making Rheagar literally the prince who was promised.  And with both Stark and Targaryan being the most important families, a child of both could be very important.

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Going back to The Wall, how many people today know the pyramids of Giza are about twice as old as the Parthenon?  Both of these are much more recent than the date given for Castle Black, we live in a more educated society, and most people would just say they are both ancient.   Maybe they'd know the pyramids are older, but I doubt anyone would describe relative dates.

All we really know is both Castle Black and The Night Fort are ancient, and oral tradition says one is much older.

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Posted (edited)

Speaking of pyramids...the Transamerica Pyramid is the tallest one in the world at 853 feet, which is taller than the Wall is said to be. Humans built the pyramids, although for many years scientists and engineers marveled at the feat and wondered how in the world they did it. Likewise I think the Wall was also built by humans, although magic is encased inside it, and it rests underneath one of the great hinges of the world. It's encased in ice, but that doesn't mean that underneath the ice the foundations weren't laid by men with assistance from giants.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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23 hours ago, JNR said:

Actually, he said it took hundreds of years to be completed, and thousands of years to be raised to its present height.  The initial Wall, he said, was far shorter.

This quote of course completely rules out an old Heretical notion that the Wall was created in a single day by the CotF... but it does closely correspond to Jeor Mormont's statement that the historical Watch used to increase the height of the Wall every year, that LCs actually tried to be more productive than their predecessors in this area... a norm that has been forgotten in latter days.

Possibly.

The one idisputable fact of the matter is that GRRM has presented us with two quite contradictory stories; one that it was improbably raised by generations of men and the other that it was raised by magic. We can quote scripture at each other from both sides of the argument but in the end it comes down to which you choose to believe, and quite frankly as man-made structures go, the Wall is not believeable and yet it exists so magic comes down to the more plausible explanation.

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10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Well, especially as relates to Brandon the Builder's "foundation stones," who knows what the Watch has forgotten? 

There would be no reason to have forgotten if, as you said, the Wall were expanding itself in an ongoing way.  It would be obvious.

For instance, anything and anyone on top of the Wall would have disappeared as new blocks popped into existence on top, crushing anything below them.  

"Good Lord," the Watch would say.  "Jenkins and his team were just turned into tomato soup and all our trebuchets are destroyed."

Or if the idea is that new blocks are magically forming in gradual layers on top of the Wall, that too would be plain, because then there would be an inch or two or three at the top -- an incomplete and growing set of new blocks three hundred miles long -- whereas formerly the top of the Wall stopped with complete blocks.

Only if the Wall is a single solid chunk of ice can we conceive that it has been growing so subtly no one noticed.  But we know instead that it is made of visually obvious blocks.

10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

It is an (IMO, not entirely believable) conceit of GRRM's world that modern men are mostly clueless about the Others, CotF magic, the Green Men that are sitting right there in the center of Westeros (if the Reeds are to be believed), and any number of other things that it seems absurd for men to have forgotten, and I don't see why the Wall would be any different.

Because those other things have been removed from human society for thousands of years.

The Wall, in perfect contrast, has always been constantly observed by the Watch.  See above.

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3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

We can quote scripture at each other from both sides of the argument but in the end it comes down to which you choose to believe, and quite frankly as man-made structures go, the Wall is not believeable and yet it exists so magic comes down to the more plausible explanation.

The Wall clearly involves magic.  However, when GRRM says that the Wall took hundreds of years to complete and thousands to be raised to its present height, that can only mean it was not formed in a day as we see it now by magic.

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You believe everything that GRRM says? When he says different things at different times :D

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14 hours ago, JNR said:

The reinforcing I agree with.  In fact, that's essential or the Wall would only be... the Mound.  Ice just lacks the strength.

The expanding... since the Wall is made of discrete blocks, I'm not sure how it could possibly expand itself without the Watch noticing.  

Whether we imagine new blocks popping into existence completely formed, or blocks forming gradually from the bottom up layer by layer, such an event would be so astounding to the Watch as to blow minds from one end of it to the other.  I can't picture it ever being forgotten.

That depends on whether the blocks actually exist as such. Yes, Jon sees them, but does he see what is actually there or does he see what he expects to see in the natural cracks and striations

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Could Rhaegar have been tpwwp?  We have the Pact of Ice and Fire, promising the Starks a Targaryan princess,  and the clue about "Prince" being gender neutral.   If Lyanna and Rhegar actually were married,  it could have fulfilled the promise, making Rheagar literally the prince who was promised.  And with both Stark and Targaryan being the most important families, a child of both could be very important.

I don't think so. If the Prince does exist he or she will reveal themselves by their deeds.

Speaking hypothetically, if a giant-slayer was called for and Jack turns up proclaiming himself or being proclaimed as the very hero advertised, folks [unless truly stupid] will stand well back and watch with interest to see what happens next.

If on the other hand Jack simply goes ahead and mallets the gook, then and only then, having proven himself by his deeds, will Jack truly be proclaimed the hero as foretold.

Its a bit like Viserys referencing Khal Drogo as Augon the Conqueror come again. He's nothing of the sort of course, at least not in literal terms, but as conquerors go he's on a par with him.

Now so far as Rhaegar goes I think its possible that he may have had the potential to become the Prince, but like all those other impaled dreamers he didn't quite make it.

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Going back to The Wall, how many people today know the pyramids of Giza are about twice as old as the Parthenon?  Both of these are much more recent than the date given for Castle Black, we live in a more educated society, and most people would just say they are both ancient.   Maybe they'd know the pyramids are older, but I doubt anyone would describe relative dates.

All we really know is both Castle Black and The Night Fort are ancient, and oral tradition says one is much older.

True and this is also why, just as in our world, its important to sort out our dating, or more precisely harmonise our dating to see how events in different places may or may not correspond

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Going back to The Wall, how many people today know the pyramids of Giza are about twice as old as the Parthenon?

Well, it is not a majority contest. If Sam, the tourist guide, knows it, it will be enough. I don't know the exact dates of Maya and Aztec civilization. I don't even know the exact dates when Attila the Hun crossed the roman borders or when Venecia was founded. And Venecia is a good example how nobody in our society gives a fuck about correct dates and locates the founding of Venecia somewhere around Caesar. Of course, with just a little bit of interest, you will know better very fast. 

And the same is true for the Pyramids. Further research reveals smaller pyramids, build as prototypes and centuries of refining the techniques.

We have something similar in Westeros with Winterfell, Dragonstone, Storm's End, maybe Moat Cailin and other unknown structures. And we have the Wall. There are speculations about a second Wall in Westeros and the 5 Forts somewhere in the east. But nothing concrete, smaller, we can compare it with. Not like with the Pyramids or the Parthenon. 

And yes, the Nightswatch should know about their own building, but as Mormont but it best: they forgot. The catholic church did not forget. And that is the point we hinted at last heresy: that the Nightswatch was mostlikely overtaken by someone else at some point in history and so they forgot. 

Edited by SirArthur

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26 minutes ago, JNR said:

There would be no reason to have forgotten if, as you said, the Wall were expanding itself in an ongoing way.  It would be obvious.

For instance, anything and anyone on top of the Wall would have disappeared as new blocks popped into existence on top, crushing anything below them.  

"Good Lord," the Watch would say.  "Jenkins and his team were just turned into tomato soup and all our trebuchets are destroyed."

Or if the idea is that new blocks are magically forming in gradual layers on top of the Wall, that too would be plain, because then there would be an inch or two or three at the top -- an incomplete and growing set of new blocks three hundred miles long -- whereas formerly the top of the Wall stopped with complete blocks.

I was not implying that new blocks are appearing out of thin air, and revisiting my post, I suppose that when I added the later part - "the Watch changes its purpose, and the Wall grows to its present height" - that I was not speaking clearly enough.

Again, two things can be true here, which is that new blocks are added through physical labor to create abrupt changes in height, but the Wall also slowly incorporates and expands on what men have added, in a process that the Watch assumes is natural glaciation, but is instead tied to the magic of the Wall.

The underlying premise is how this relates to the early Wall in particular--eventually, the Wall became a project with many castles, thousands (one would assume) of members in the order of builders, and was focused primarily on keeping the Free Folk out, but was it ever thus?

We have this description of blocks:

Quote

Grigg's section was darker to the eye, with more obvious features; long horizontal ledges where a block had been imperfectly positioned atop the block below, cracks and crevices, even chimneys along the vertical joins, where wind and water had eaten holes large enough for a man to hide in.

But this is a description of the heights, and as BC notes, perhaps this is how those features are being logically contextualized (eg, a block imperfectly positioned atop another), but I am not personally arguing about whether or not the order of builders placed new blocks with pulleys and so forth; my interest is in the central, 'original' Wall.

By this I mean not only the lowermost portions of the Wall, but innermost. Do we have any similar descriptions of seams, joins, clearly delineated lines that signify blocks from any of the character treks inside the Wall, such as the tunnel that exits north of Castle Black? Not a rhetorical question, I'm just personally having trouble finding one.
___

The point being that what some of us think might have happened was that there was an era in which the Nightfort was the only castle, and there was no order of builders, because the Wall didn't need an order of builders; the Wall did not need to reach insane heights because it was not meant to stop raiders with ladders.

Instead, we suspect a structure that only grew through glaciation--possibly a glaciation that was not at the mercy of the weather, but that was "fed" through blood sacrifice at the Nightfort, which is the root of the hatred that Free Folk such as Ygritte hold for the Wall, a hatred so deep that some Free Folk do not hold to Dalla's pragmatic point of view regarding the use of the Horn.

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6 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

And that is the point we hinted at last heresy: that the Nightswatch was mostlikely overtaken by someone else at some point in history and so they forgot. 

The King Beyond the Wall and the Lord of Winterfell banded together and took down the Nights King, and we have a ser-mix-alot-version of this with the wildlings banding together with the LC of the Nights Watch to gang up on the Lord of Winterfell (Ramsay) who has the King Beyond the Wall in a cage.

The Citadel with it's maesters seem to be waging a deliberate campaign of misinformation. We know they are against magic, but what possible benefit is it to them to dismiss ancient history or re-date the time lines of historic events?

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