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Heresy 206: of Starks and Walls


Black Crow

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I'm a bit confused....I accept that that the Wall was built.It took hundreds of years to do so.

So while we don't know how many hundreds of years, the length more than height could be the reason for this.

I mean it was short enough for 13 LC to get a look at some tail from atop it.

I akso don't think Mel is lying for didn't CHs say the same thing about spells being interwoven in the Wall.

I believe her also because of Storm's end.

 

 

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6 hours ago, JNR said:

I don't think the evidence the Wall was fed sacrifices is nearly as good as the evidence the Wall is made of blocks.  

We've directly seen the blocks, beyond any conceivable doubt, through Jon's eyes as he climbed the Wall.

As to the latter, again, that relates to the heights--when it comes to Jon's thoughts before the climb begins (eg, speaking of Brandon laying huge foundation blocks on hills) it is nebulous as to whether or not this is speculation about how the foundation was laid, as opposed to physical description. 

For comparison, no such descriptions are applied to the tunnels, or within Melisandre, Samwell, Bran, or Tyrion's POVs. Which is not necessarily damning, but it is odd that, for so conspicuous a structure, that any debate over its appearance exists in the first place, and the text under analysis is being pulled almost entirely from a single ASOS chapter.

In any case, I must reiterate, when I speak of "Brandon's Wall," I am suggesting an original structure that may lay inward--that the oldest section of the Wall lay in the core, around which blocks (which may themselves be characterized as "foundation blocks") may have been placed, at whichever point the Wall became a heavily manned, anti-Wildling structure.

"The Wall is made of blocks" and "The Wall was fed sacrifices" are not incompatible sentiments, unless one defines the former quite strictly.
 

6 hours ago, JNR said:

...and as for the Black Gate, it is never associated in any sense with any sacrifices.

The Black Gate is never associated with anything, beyond what we are specifically shown in ASOS, and what Coldhands told Sam of the Gate--its existence appears to be a surprise to the Watch, and it has no lore, yet we might rightly assume there are mysteries to be unlocked.

Beyond Ygritte's comments about the Wall being built of blood, and the Nightfort being associated with ominous tales, the presence of a weirwood face has been re-contextualized by ADWD, where we are introduced to the premise of blood sacrifice to the old gods, in both overt exposition, Bran-as-tree tasting the blood of the man in his ancient weirwood vision, and possibly in Jojen's bleak mood and absence in the latter parts of Bran III, as well as drawing more generally on the way magic has been presented.

It is a line of discussion that proceeds from the observation that the Wall is a work of a extraordinary magic, and that extraordinary magic often demands an extraordinary price on Planetos.

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7 hours ago, JNR said:

Jon is conveying that he sees the Wall's base is made of blocks, which he interprets as having been laid by Brandon the Builder because of the myths (which may or may not be true).  

But the blocks (whatever their origin) are objectively there, just as they are while Jon is climbing.

I don't think the evidence the Wall was fed sacrifices is nearly as good as the evidence the Wall is made of blocks.  

We've directly seen the blocks, beyond any conceivable doubt, through Jon's eyes as he climbed the Wall.  The concept of sacrifices having been used to build the Wall emerges purely from Ygritte's vague remark about the Wall being made of blood.  Even the tale of the Night's King says the sacrifies were to the Others, not for the Wall, and as for the Black Gate, it is never associated in any sense with any sacrifices.

True as to the Black Gate, unless the door itself or rather the portal is recognised as a sacrifice. However, once again GRRM deflected the question of how the Wall was actually built:

 If time is permiting would you mind giving a brief description on how the wall was constructed?

Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time. But one thing I will say, for what it's worth -- more than ice went into the raising of the Wall. Remember, these are "fantasy" novels

That directly contradicts your quotation anent hundreds and thousands of years, so we do in fact have two contrasting starements by GRRM as to its construction and the difference is that the magical explanation has more support in text.

As to what Jon "sees"; as you admit he sees what he expects to see and interprets what he finds in the light of what he knows of the myths

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Anyone here familiar with ice sculpture or glaciers?  Ice sculptures don't last long, even kept cold, sublimation will destroy them.  Glaciers are large enough they flow like water, although much slower.  A real Wall might not last a month even under optimal conditions. 

I think this, as well as the Wards, are the only magic that went into the Wall which was otherwise built by hand.  One could still say blood went into building it if lots of slave workers died on the project, even if they weren't sacrificed for magical reasons.  The horrors of slavery fit so much better with GRRM's style than 800 feet of ice popping out of thin air for hundreds of miles.

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16 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

If the Wall defended against wildlings,  they are the least of threats.  A Wall between any of the 7 kingdoms makes more sense to stop armies, not a few poorly organized and equipped raiders. 

 

If the wildlings are descendants of Ironborn and were responsible for practicing ice magic by sacrificing Children of the Forest, then imprisoning them north of the Wall to keep them from abducting and sacrificing more Children is all that was needed - that, and a force of 10,000 (or more) men stationed along the Wall to make sure they stay in the north.

15 hours ago, SirArthur said:

You can say what you want about the purpose of the Wall. But it certainly won't stop any Wildlings from crossing the west coast. 

A few escaped here and there, most famously Bael the Bard, but the numbers of men stationed at the Wall kept escapees to a minimum, and the law that any escapees would be captured and beheaded by the Houses south of the Wall was a deterrent too. The only reason larger groups were able to climb over and cause damage was because the Watch numbers have dwindled to less than 1000, which makes it impossible to protect the entire length. 

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Wait huh? To keep Wildings out? I thought per GRRM the Wall took 100s of yrs to build and 1000s to reach its current height. This tells me that it wasn't meant to be a physical barrier against humans.

They could could scale that easy and still continued to do so at its current height.

Also, and i don't think Mel is BSing when she said a great lore built it and spells are interwoven in it.That doesn't sound like the spell is emanating from a source to cover the Wall.

 

I agree that a ten foot Wall and 10,000 men would be enough of a physical barrier to keep out (most of) the wildlings. But, the Nights King rose to power within 100 years of it's construction - during it's infancy really. When he was overthrown I theorize that he was sealed inside one of the cells down in the well of the Nightfort, and magic itself was sealed and warded with spells inside the Wall with him. When that event occurred magic became infused into the Wall, and since its ice magic - it kept the Wall perpetually frozen. As the ice grew, the Watch continued to do maintenance throwing down gravel, and the height grew over thousands of years.

15 hours ago, Black Crow said:



Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time. But one thing I will say, for what it's worth -- more than ice went into the raising of the Wall. Remember, these are "fantasy" novels

That doesn't sound man-made at all and we also have this unconsidered trifle from Bran:

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall.

Bob the Builder is Bran's most famous ancestor, yet he is clearly sceptical or at least unconvinced he was responsible for the Wall.

Why?

Is it because he has been told that however implausibly ordinary men built it by conventional means?

 

Yes. More than ice, because the Watch laid a physical foundation first, and have added layers of gravel. Thousands of years of physical labor have gone into the Wall, and many conflicts and bloodshed over those years stopping wildlings from climbing over it.

Brandon the Builder may have instructed them on the original construction, but if magic was sealed and warded into it when the Nights King was overthrown, then Brandon couldn't take credit for the its contributions.

 

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20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't think we have any reason to believe that Jenny wasn't from the riverlands.  It appears that the nearest village to Oldstones may be Sevenstreams, where Tom O' Sevenstreams is from.  And speaking of Oldstones:

My guess is Jenny was also from Sevenstreams, where they all appear to be interrelated.  In other words a very insular community that is keeping a bloodline fairly close together.  And if Jenny is from Sevenstreams, and if she claims to be descended from First Men kings, then the my guess is we have a group of people who at least lay claim to having "kingsblood". 

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that I don't think she was from the riverlands. I just think that she may have had a connection, through her claimed First Men descent, to old magics and lore, and the description of her being somewhat wild and otherworldly fits that. There's a mystery to her involvement with the woods witch, events at Summerhall and her possible connection to prophecy that has yet to be unravelled.

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37 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

A few escaped here and there, most famously Bael the Bard, but the numbers of men stationed at the Wall kept escapees to a minimum, and the law that any escapees would be captured and beheaded by the Houses south of the Wall was a deterrent too. The only reason larger groups were able to climb over and cause damage was because the Watch numbers have dwindled to less than 1000, which makes it impossible to protect the entire length. 

I find this discussion really tiring. Even when I point out that the Wall will not cover the entire border and also not the west coast, we go back to men climbing over the Wall. It's like Wildlings can cross the water at Eastwatch but when it comes to the west everything is super in order and there is no need for a harbor. 

Don't you think there would be a western harbor if the Wall was build against the Wildlings ?

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I would like to go back to the business of the NW oath referring to walls (plural).  What does this mean?  Why more than one wall or which walls?  I don't think this refers to anything other than the ice wall.  Rather, I think the Wall itself is both a physical barrier that must be maintained and a magical barrier within which is the second wall.   So the Watch is responsible for the integrity of both and knew that at one point.

I wonder if the ice wall has to be maintained in order to keep the wards or the great lore intact and the reason why the NW continued to raise it's heights or thicken its walls with blocks of ice.  Jon seems nervous about the fact that he can see light coming through the ice wall:
 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII

Jon nodded weakly. The door swung open. Pyp led them in, followed by Clydas and the lantern. It was all Jon could do to keep up with Maester Aemon. The ice pressed close around them, and he could feel the cold seeping into his bones, the weight of the Wall above his head. It felt like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon. The tunnel took a twist, and then another. Pyp unlocked a second iron gate. They walked farther, turned again, and saw light ahead, faint and pale through the ice. That's bad, Jon knew at once. That's very bad.

 

Why is it very bad? 

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The only explanation for the Wall I can come up with is to stop or slow down large armies.  Individuals can go over or around.  I even thought about a 500 foot tall creature that can't fly or swim, but that doesn't fit with the Wall being shorter and gaining height slowly.

You could never, for example,  support 10000 men on the side with supplies and food, or have them take horses, siege equipment or even carry much arms and armor.  The Wall would work well for this purpose even without being too high,  and work better the higher it was built.

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10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

that relates to the heights--when it comes to Jon's thoughts before the climb begins (eg, speaking of Brandon laying huge foundation blocks on hills) it is nebulous as to whether or not this is speculation about how the foundation was laid

Jon's approaching the Wall physically and as he comes up to it, he's thinking about blocks because blocks are what he sees.

If he saw no blocks, we'd expect him to think something like:

Quote

Although in myths Brandon the Builder had laid foundation blocks, there didn't seem to be any blocks as far as Jon could see.

But the text doesn't say any such thing.  Whatever it is he sees gives him no reason to doubt that the Wall is made of blocks.

Jon also thinks about the blocks in a broad sense that doesn't specify height at any particular level.  Example:

Quote

Ice was treacherous stuff at the best of times, and on a day like this, when the Wall was weeping, the warmth of a climber's hand might be enough to melt it. The huge blocks could be frozen rock-hard inside, but their outer surface would be slick, with runnels of water trickling down, and patches of rotten ice where the air had gotten in. Whatever else the wildlings are, they're brave.

See what I'm saying?  

Jon's idea is that the Wall is treacherous on days when the ice is weeping because the blocks that the Wall is made of are slick.  

This is not meant to apply only to one chunk of the Wall, somewhere in the middle as you climb it.  His premise is that the whole Wall is made of such blocks and that's why the whole Wall can turn treacherous, or he wouldn't even mention blocks.  He would instead just say "the ice melts" because that's all that would be needed to express that idea.

11 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Beyond Ygritte's comments about the Wall being built of blood, and the Nightfort being associated with ominous tales, the presence of a weirwood face has been re-contextualized by ADWD

Well, what we see in Bran's vision is a man being killed on one occasion.  

We can interpret it as a ritual sacrifice to old gods that happened many times... if we like... but since it happened at Winterfell it certainly doesn't seem to pertain to the Wall, which is hundreds of miles north.

Also, of course, the Black Gate is made of weirwood, but is it a weirwood tree?  

The Black Gate appears only to be a door at the moment.  If so, that would mean a weirwood was cut down and part of it was used to make a door.  This doesn't seem very respectful to the old gods and would make it an odd place to sacrifice to the old gods.

Beyond that, if you kill something in front of an object that is made of dead weirwood... such as for instance the hunting scene on the double doors in front of Mott's shop in King's Landing... do the old gods see that, or interpret it as a sacrifice to them?   Hmmm.

I guess we can imagine they do.  We can imagine that there were such sacrifices in a well in front of a secret weirwood door, at the Nightfort, long ago.  But our imagination of that is all we have, whereas Jon's direct observation of the Wall shows it to be made of blocks, and if magic is responsible for stacking blocks over thousands of years, it must be magic unlike any we've encountered so far in canon.

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27 minutes ago, JNR said:

, and if magic is responsible for stacking blocks over thousands of years, it must be magic unlike any we've encountered so far in canon.

 

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it. :commie:

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48 minutes ago, JNR said:

 

Well, what we see in Bran's vision is a man being killed on one occasion.  

We can interpret it as a ritual sacrifice to old gods that happened many times... if we like... but since it happened at Winterfell it certainly doesn't seem to pertain to the Wall, which is hundreds of miles north.

 

Technically, perhaps but we also have the business of the White Harbor lot decorating trees with the entrails of their enemies

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

This is not meant to apply only to one chunk of the Wall, somewhere in the middle as you climb it.  His premise is that the whole Wall is made of such blocks and that's why the whole Wall can turn treacherous, or he wouldn't even mention blocks.

Yes, that's his premise, his understanding, which does not necessarily represent absolute knowledge; to BC's point, even if Jon might be looking at an outward layer of glaciation that had accumulated during the winter, and is subsequently melting, even if Jon is not physically seeing a grid of seams, his expectation is that there are blocks beneath--which does not necessarily mean that the blocks are there.

However, and apparently this cannot be repeated often enough, given that there appears to be an argument where no argument - eg, the staking of positions, the insistence on either/or reads - need exist in the first place, it is perfectly possible for the Wall to simultaneously be the product of magical and physical labor. 

Indeed, it is possible for the Wall to be a structure that is primarily composed of blocks that were placed by men (or giants, or whatever), but with some mystical contribution as well--an unnatural core within the Wall, a sorcerous glaciation that gradually wreathes added blocks, etc.

When people do not speak of engineering, pulleys, slowly quarried ice blocks, and physical labor, this is not some "ancient aliens" thing (at least, it isn't on my part) where these things are being dismissed as implausible, and their absence as an element of discussion is an oversight--it is that these things are already understood by default, and more discussion potential lay in the mystical elements.
 

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Well, what we see in Bran's vision is a man being killed on one occasion.  

We can interpret it as a ritual sacrifice to old gods that happened many times... if we like... but since it happened at Winterfell it certainly doesn't seem to pertain to the Wall, which is hundreds of miles north.

This seems willfully obtuse; I don't know how a person could, in good faith, believe that I was referencing the sacrifice at Winterfell as directly influencing the Wall--I was referencing it as a relational idea to a broader context in ADWD where the old gods are given a more sinister bent; even if one does not interpret the vision as a ritual sacrifice, Bran (inhabiting the "skin" of the tree) tastes the blood, and that moment occurs within the broader context of Davos' ADWD chapters.

The significance is that, with the dark vaults beneath the earth, the Black Gate, the weirwoods intruding into the Nightfort, the grove of nine faces, the LH seeking the aide of the CotF, and the wards in BR's cave, the net totality of the picture suggests some level of old god magic in the Wall's wards, and given that ritual sacrifice is said to have been an element of old god worship, we might further speculate that the Nightfort was not merely a military structure, but a ritual site.
 

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Beyond that, if you kill something in front of an object that is made of dead weirwood... such as for instance the hunting scene on the double doors in front of Mott's shop in King's Landing... do the old gods see that, or interpret it as a sacrifice to them?   Hmmm.

Is the Black Gate dead? Either way, this is overly narrow, and when I speak of sacrifice to the Wall, I mean one might explore every iteration of that concept--which is to say, whatever rituals were performed, perhaps they were at the Black Gate, perhaps they were at the grove of nine weirwoods, perhaps they were at whichever tree is intruding upon the Nightfort, perhaps they were performed as a part of the process of crafting BtB's "foundation blocks," and so forth.
 

1 hour ago, JNR said:

We can imagine that there were such sacrifices in a well in front of a secret weirwood door, at the Nightfort, long ago.


Right. We can look at the incomplete series, A Song of Ice and Fire, and explore what sorts of plot developments and revelations are in-store for the reader in future volumes. We can register on the A Song of Ice and Fire discussion forums, and go into the thread Heresy - the very title of which suggests that this is a thread that welcomes heterodoxical discussion of A Song of Ice and Fire - and proceed to exchange those explorations with others. A strange thing to observe aloud, but absolutely correct.

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I would like to go back to the business of the NW oath referring to walls (plural).  What does this mean?  Why more than one wall or which walls?  I don't think this refers to anything other than the ice wall.  Rather, I think the Wall itself is both a physical barrier that must be maintained and a magical barrier within which is the second wall.   So the Watch is responsible for the integrity of both and knew that at one point.

A possible explanation may be that the Oath was transplanted there.

We have a plausible scenario where the nature of the Watch changed completely with the fall of the Nights King. The "New" Watch being bigger, building all those castles and actually standing guard on the Wall.But who were they? I mean the first ones, who were in place before the prisoners arrived.

The victory over the Nights King and his inhuman allies can be interpreted as a victory for Fire over Ice. What the oath can also be interpreted as is one sworn by those who tend the night fires on the walls of the red temples, guarding them as they watch for the dawn. There may no longer be an actual connection after all these years, but the similaries and the references to walls may point to a forgotten origin

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4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

 

I find this discussion really tiring. Even when I point out that the Wall will not cover the entire border and also not the west coast, we go back to men climbing over the Wall. It's like Wildlings can cross the water at Eastwatch but when it comes to the west everything is super in order and there is no need for a harbor. 

Don't you think there would be a western harbor if the Wall was build against the Wildlings ?

Sorry to be so taxing!

The western edge is a deep gorge. The Wall ends abruptly with steep drop offs into the western sea. The physical geography of the area is what prevents crossings. The Bridge of Skulls is the only way across.

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The order of builders provided the masons and carpenters to repair keeps and towers, the miners to dig tunnels and crush stone for roads and footpaths, the woodsmen to clear away new growth wherever the forest pressed too close to the Wall. Once, it was said, they had quarried immense blocks of ice from frozen lakes deep in the haunted forest, dragging them south on sledges so the Wall might be raised ever higher. Those days were centuries gone, however; now, it was all they could do to ride the Wall from Eastwatch to the Shadow Tower, watching for cracks or signs of melt and making what repairs they could.

 

22 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Sorry to be so taxing!

The western edge is a deep gorge. The Wall ends abruptly with steep drop offs into the western sea. The physical geography of the area is what prevents crossings. The Bridge of Skulls is the only way across.

I really don't know how else I should tell you that the Wall has massive holes and the lack of a western harbor proofs that it was not build for Wildling control.

1. The Wall ends at the Shadow Tower. Not at the western sea:

The order of builders provided the masons and carpenters to repair keeps and towers, the miners to dig tunnels and crush stone for roads and footpaths, the woodsmen to clear away new growth wherever the forest pressed too close to the Wall. Once, it was said, they had quarried immense blocks of ice from frozen lakes deep in the haunted forest, dragging them south on sledges so the Wall might be raised ever higher. Those days were centuries gone, however; now, it was all they could do to ride the Wall from Eastwatch to the Shadow Tower, watching for cracks or signs of melt and making what repairs they could.

2. It can be penetrated in the east and the west

The Others take them all, thought Jon, as he watched them scramble up the steep slope of the ridge and vanish beneath the trees. It would not be the first time wildlings had scaled the Wall, not even the hundred and first. The patrols stumbled on climbers two or three times a year, and rangers sometimes came on the broken corpses of those who had fallen. Along the east coast the raiders most often built boats to slip across the Bay of Seals. In the west they would descend into the black depths of the Gorge to make their way around the Shadow Tower. But in between the only way to defeat the Wall was to go over it, 

3. You need longships to stop the wildlings from crossing the sea

Hother wanted ships. "There's wildlings stealing down from the north, more than I've ever seen before. They cross the Bay of Seals in little boats and wash up on our shores. The crows in Eastwatch are too few to stop them, and they go to ground quick as weasels. It's longships we need, aye, and strong men to sail them. The Greatjon took too many. Half our harvest is gone to seed for want of arms to swing the scythes."

 

4. This is my own speculation. If the Wall would go all the way to the west, it would need a harbor and longships to stop wildlings crossing the western sea. And because the Wall has no harbor in the west it is clear that it was never build for stoping humans crossing the sea.

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22 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

4. This is my own speculation. If the Wall would go all the way to the west, it would need a harbor and longships to stop wildlings crossing the western sea. And because the Wall has no harbor in the west it is clear that it was never build for stoping humans crossing the sea.

Yeah, that makes sense to me.

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36 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

The order of builders provided the masons and carpenters to repair keeps and towers, the miners to dig tunnels and crush stone for roads and footpaths, the woodsmen to clear away new growth wherever the forest pressed too close to the Wall. Once, it was said, they had quarried immense blocks of ice from frozen lakes deep in the haunted forest, dragging them south on sledges so the Wall might be raised ever higher. Those days were centuries gone, however; now, it was all they could do to ride the Wall from Eastwatch to the Shadow Tower, watching for cracks or signs of melt and making what repairs they could.

 

I really don't know how else I should tell you that the Wall has massive holes and the lack of a western harbor proofs that it was not build for Wildling control.

1. The Wall ends at the Shadow Tower. Not at the western sea:

The order of builders provided the masons and carpenters to repair keeps and towers, the miners to dig tunnels and crush stone for roads and footpaths, the woodsmen to clear away new growth wherever the forest pressed too close to the Wall. Once, it was said, they had quarried immense blocks of ice from frozen lakes deep in the haunted forest, dragging them south on sledges so the Wall might be raised ever higher. Those days were centuries gone, however; now, it was all they could do to ride the Wall from Eastwatch to the Shadow Tower, watching for cracks or signs of melt and making what repairs they could.

2. It can be penetrated in the east and the west

The Others take them all, thought Jon, as he watched them scramble up the steep slope of the ridge and vanish beneath the trees. It would not be the first time wildlings had scaled the Wall, not even the hundred and first. The patrols stumbled on climbers two or three times a year, and rangers sometimes came on the broken corpses of those who had fallen. Along the east coast the raiders most often built boats to slip across the Bay of Seals. In the west they would descend into the black depths of the Gorge to make their way around the Shadow Tower. But in between the only way to defeat the Wall was to go over it, 

3. You need longships to stop the wildlings from crossing the sea

Hother wanted ships. "There's wildlings stealing down from the north, more than I've ever seen before. They cross the Bay of Seals in little boats and wash up on our shores. The crows in Eastwatch are too few to stop them, and they go to ground quick as weasels. It's longships we need, aye, and strong men to sail them. The Greatjon took too many. Half our harvest is gone to seed for want of arms to swing the scythes."

 

4. This is my own speculation. If the Wall would go all the way to the west, it would need a harbor and longships to stop wildlings crossing the western sea. And because the Wall has no harbor in the west it is clear that it was never build for stoping humans crossing the sea.

The high cliffs are the barrier to crossing. Who knows how far north the cliffs go. I don't think this feature is described in detail. If I am missing something, I'm sure you'll find it and bring it to my attention.

The gorge is the only opening to the western sea. The Watch probably relied quite a bit on the physical nature and conditions of the area for defense. If there were a harbor down there, how would any cargo or people get up to the top?

Westwatch-by-the-Sea is further west than the Shadow Tower and was manned in the past. Jon re-garrisoned it in the current story. 

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