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Why didn’t Robb just focus on Tywin?


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50 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

You can't you judge how well disciplined he infantry were from the battle of the Green Fork as there is not enough detail provided there. And certainly not enough to conclude the northern infantry were as well disciplined as Tywin's, which contradicts the author's own statements.

Not everyone fits the description of a farmboy with a hoe but it gets across the idea that much of the infantry is not well armed, trained or disciplined.

Every single infantryman we see on either side is armed with standard infantry weapons (pike, spear, et al) and mail.

The TSS "levy" had sharpened sticks and wicker shields. Septon Meribald and his buddies had a stolen kitchen knife.

The TSS and Meribald comparisons are honestly a complete non-starter. Even a cursory glance at the equipment and behavior of the those versus pretty much any infantry we see is enough to note huge differences. Just read this. It has all the quotes collected into one fairly readable post.

50 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

I don't think the two armies did perform the exact same manoeuvres either. The northerners advanced and stood to receive a cavalry charge (in Tyrion's part of the battlefield) while Tywin expected Kevan's infantry to wheel during the battle and catch the troops the Starks were supposed to commit to exploit the crumbling Lannister left. As it happened they never did but I think you can see from that that the Lannisters were capable of  sophisticated manoeuvres. 

I was speaking of the infantry used at Riverrun, which is Tywin's infantry as well. Tywin's men are indeed capable, as are the northmen. Ignoring the fact that the infantry Tyrion encountered was completely misdeployed, we have men marching over hills in a defensive formation before they charge.  That means they are following auditory cues and orders like Tywin's men (drums vs trumpets). Then we see Karstark men stop charging and form up in a defensive formation to hold against heavy horse. Honestly what is meant by a double hedgehog is a bit beyond me. I'd have guessed something like two adjacent schilltroms but for some ungodly reason I can't read that line and not see the Rebel Alliance logo.

“A crescent of enemy spearmen had formed ahead, a double hedgehog bristling with steel, waiting behind tall oaken shields marked with the sunburst of Karstark.”

“suddenly the enemy was there before them, boiling over the tops of the hills, advancing with measured tread behind a wall of shields and pikes.”

----

“Our spearmen formed up a shieldwall and held against their first charge, but when the Tullys saw them engaged, they opened the gates of Riverrun and Tytos Blackwood led a sortie across the drawbridge and took them in the rear.”

 

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44 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Every single infantryman we see on either side is armed with standard infantry weapons (pike, spear, et al) and mail.

We don't see every single infantryman though. GRRM could describe the weaponry of each soldier, but that would be a waste of his time. 

44 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The TSS "levy" had sharpened sticks and wicker shields. Septon Meribald and his buddies had a stolen kitchen knife.

And I think in both Meribald's army and the Reach army during the Blackfyre wars there would be infantrymen better equipped than both of these examples. But they exist and they likely exist in the Northern infantry as well. 

This host her son had assembled was not a standing army such as the Free Cities were accustomed to maintain, nor a force of guardsmen paid in coin. Most of them were smallfolk: crofters, fieldhands, fishermen, sheepherders, the sons of innkeeps and traders and tanners, leavened with a smattering of sellswords and freeriders hungry for plunder. When their lords called, they came … but not forever. "

 

From Cat's description it seems possible that some of these men would fall into the same category that was descibed in TSS and by Meribald. 

 

 

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I really don't think the army compositions that we've seen were given enough thought and detail for anything definitive, really they're just meant to be entertaining. The equipment we see described falls in line with commonplace high to late middle ages practices, for example you can look at Henry II's Assize of Arms as early as 1181 to see who was expected to serve and have what arms to have specifically to Henry's domains but that's not necessarily going to translate into a fantasy novel because ultimately it's all coming out of GRRM's head, he could on one end describe all this equipment typical of more wealthy freemen whilst still having in his head the idea that the armies made up of dirt poor farmers because there's not necessarily going to be a realistic consistency holding it together. 

In other words the descriptions of battles and weapons/armour might be based on typical equipment you'd see in more professional medieval European armies but at the same time not really mesh with the idea that these forces were assembled in a way that for example scours the North of most of its able bodied men, these two things could contradict each other but that's not necessarily going to stop an author putting them in what is ultimately a fantasy novel that doesn't explore the arms an armour and order of battle in much depth. 

Basically what you could draw from the text is that these armies seem to have a core of decently armed freemen and mercenaries whilst also perhaps having a tail of every Tom, Dick and Harry they can find armed with whatever they can find? In real life perhaps not very realistic but maybe it's just par for the course in Westeros even if it is pretty pointless throwing a guy with a pitchfork into a battle, it is fiction after all. 

Also as a side note since the idea of a rabble of farm tool armed peasants in medieval European warfare is quite a commonly held belief it's worth noting that not all peasants are serfs, freemen would still be peasants but could be relatively speaking quite well off and would be able to arm themselves and have some level of training, these would be the "peasants" that would more typically be serving in most armies in Europe although that's still a huge generalisation of a huge area and a large period of time. 
 

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One thing that really  bothers me about that Cat quote is the part about Free Cities; She says these men aren't part of a standing army like those in Free cities but from all we know Mercenary companies do most of the fighting, if not all.

Sure we see "soldiers" like Volantene marching on GC camp but are Knights and household guards of the Westerosi any different from them? City watches would be an even better comparison in their use  if not training.

Either we are fed wrong information because of PoV unreliability(Cat not trained in arts of war) or GRRM changed his mind later on because almost every time we see infantry they are properly armed and armored 

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

One thing that really  bothers me about that Cat quote is the part about Free Cities; She says these men aren't part of a standing army like those in Free cities but from all we know Mercenary companies do most of the fighting, if not all.

Sure we see "soldiers" like Volantene marching on GC camp but are Knights and household guards of the Westerosi any different from them? City watches would be an even better comparison in their use  if not training.

Either we are fed wrong information because of PoV unreliability(Cat not trained in arts of war) or GRRM changed his mind later on because almost every time we see infantry they are properly armed and armored 

I'd imagine it is Cat now knowing that much about military. 

"You are a woman, my lady," the Greatjon rumbled in his deep voice. "Women do not understand these things."

"Give me Cersei Lannister, Lord Karstark, and you would see how gentle a woman can be," Catelyn replied. "Perhaps I do not understand tactics and strategy … but I understand futility."

It is likely the same reason she misunderstands the military value of Renly's actions in ACOK, as skilled and intelligent as she in manner other matters she, and the majority of mainland females, have not been educated in the ways of war. 

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'd imagine it is Cat now knowing that much about military. 

It is likely the same reason she misunderstands the military value of Renly's actions in ACOK, as skilled and intelligent as she in manner other matters she, and the majority of mainland females, have not been educated in the ways of war. 

Well if she isn't so knowledgable about militarily matters her quote on how an army is formed shouldn't have that much value to us. 

Sure we see the pitchfork and scythe wielding peasants too but only once or twice and in relatively few numbers compared to steel-clad infantry wielding pikes and spears with tall shields to hide behind and training to withstand a charge

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Well if she isn't so knowledgable about militarily matters her quote on how an army is formed shouldn't have that much value to us. 

Sure we see the pitchfork and scythe wielding peasants too but only once or twice and in relatively few numbers compared to steel-clad infantry wielding pikes and spears with tall shields to hide behind and training to withstand a charge

The only place we see them is when they are meant to rout (Tywin's van) or they are being sent to die (Frey infantry going north). Even then they don't seem to make up the entirety or majority of the force they are in:

“the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west: mounted archers in leather jerkins, a swarming mass of undisciplined freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers’ rusted swords, half-trained boys from the stews of Lannisport … and Tyrion and his mountain clansmen."

“At least a thousand, maybe more: bowmen, spearmen, peasants armed with scythes and sharpened sticks, freeriders and mounted archers, and another hundred knights to stiffen them.”

 

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5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

One thing that really  bothers me about that Cat quote is the part about Free Cities; She says these men aren't part of a standing army like those in Free cities but from all we know Mercenary companies do most of the fighting, if not all.

An interpretation is that Cat is referring to the free companies, since they do not disband after a campaign like Westerosi levies. They are standing armies which happen to be hired by Free Cities instead of being raised from the city-state's populace. 

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8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The only place we see them is when they are meant to rout (Tywin's van) or they are being sent to die (Frey infantry going north). Even then they don't seem to make up the entirety or majority of the force they are in:

“the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west: mounted archers in leather jerkins, a swarming mass of undisciplined freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers’ rusted swords, half-trained boys from the stews of Lannisport … and Tyrion and his mountain clansmen."

“At least a thousand, maybe more: bowmen, spearmen, peasants armed with scythes and sharpened sticks, freeriders and mounted archers, and another hundred knights to stiffen them.”

 

Yes my point exactly.

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1 minute ago, Nittanian said:

An interpretation is that Cat is referring to the free companies, since they do not disband after a campaign like Westerosi levies. They are standing armies which happen to be hired by Free Cities instead of being raised from the city-state's populace. 

Perhaps, but knights, household guards an even watchmen are not disbanding after campaigns either.

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18 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

I really don't think the army compositions that we've seen were given enough thought and detail for anything definitive, really they're just meant to be entertaining. The equipment we see described falls in line with commonplace high to late middle ages practices, for example you can look at Henry II's Assize of Arms as early as 1181 to see who was expected to serve and have what arms to have specifically to Henry's domains but that's not necessarily going to translate into a fantasy novel because ultimately it's all coming out of GRRM's head, he could on one end describe all this equipment typical of more wealthy freemen whilst still having in his head the idea that the armies made up of dirt poor farmers because there's not necessarily going to be a realistic consistency holding it together. 

In other words the descriptions of battles and weapons/armour might be based on typical equipment you'd see in more professional medieval European armies but at the same time not really mesh with the idea that these forces were assembled in a way that for example scours the North of most of its able bodied men, these two things could contradict each other but that's not necessarily going to stop an author putting them in what is ultimately a fantasy novel that doesn't explore the arms an armour and order of battle in much depth. 

Basically what you could draw from the text is that these armies seem to have a core of decently armed freemen and mercenaries whilst also perhaps having a tail of every Tom, Dick and Harry they can find armed with whatever they can find? In real life perhaps not very realistic but maybe it's just par for the course in Westeros even if it is pretty pointless throwing a guy with a pitchfork into a battle, it is fiction after all. 

Also as a side note since the idea of a rabble of farm tool armed peasants in medieval European warfare is quite a commonly held belief it's worth noting that not all peasants are serfs, freemen would still be peasants but could be relatively speaking quite well off and would be able to arm themselves and have some level of training, these would be the "peasants" that would more typically be serving in most armies in Europe although that's still a huge generalisation of a huge area and a large period of time. 
 

:agree:It is a mistake to try to hunt too hard for consistency in GrrM's description of military affairs. 

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Except literally every battle we see? [monocle_emoji.gif]

 

The author is more or less on record saying you're wrong, so ... You may think you understand his book better than he does but I don't.  

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15 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

The author is more or less on record saying you're wrong, so ... You may think you understand his book better than he does but I don't.  

When he re-releases the book with more accurate descriptions of poorly trained and poorly armed troops, I'll consider the current canon wrong. Until then, I will take the book as canon, and the SSM as semi-canon, which GRRM (and Ran) himself tells  us to do.

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10 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

When he re-releases the book with more accurate descriptions of poorly trained and poorly armed troops, I'll consider the current canon wrong. Until then, I will take the book as canon, and the SSM as semi-canon, which GRRM (and Ran) himself tells  us to do.

The author has done just that in the Septon Meribald speech. 

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7 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

When he re-releases the book with more accurate descriptions of poorly trained and poorly armed troops, I'll consider the current canon wrong. Until then, I will take the book as canon, and the SSM as semi-canon, which GRRM (and Ran) himself tells  us to do.

My point was that there's nothing stopping GRRM as an author from describing typically equipped medieval armies and simultaneously describing recruitment techniques that wouldn't support such armies in medieval Europe, basically all the descriptions of the armies seem decently equipped as you'd expect yet also the idea of poorly armed serfs and the North being scoured of able bodied men comes up which seems contradictory, those labourers would be better left in the fields but that's what GRRM chose to describe so it would seem that in Westeros everyone gets mobilised and perhaps the lesser armed soldiers just aren't sent to the forefront of combat? They're competing ideas but they're both there so it makes arguing in depth a pointless battle in this regard since the author can pretty much say whatever he wants. 

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19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The author has done just that in the Septon Meribald speech. 

Who summoned them? Whose levy were they apart of?

If we can't answer those questions, then he's really not the same now is he?

12 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

My point was that there's nothing stopping GRRM as an author from describing typically equipped medieval armies and simultaneously describing recruitment techniques that wouldn't support such armies in medieval Europe, basically all the descriptions of the armies seem decently equipped as you'd expect yet also the idea of poorly armed serfs and the North being scoured of able bodied men comes up which seems contradictory, those labourers would be better left in the fields but that's what GRRM chose to describe so it would seem that in Westeros everyone gets mobilised and perhaps the lesser armed soldiers just aren't sent to the forefront of combat? They're competing ideas but they're both there so it makes arguing in depth a pointless battle in this regard since the author can pretty much say whatever he wants. 

There are ways you can "twist" the text. BBE has done it a few times, specifically regarding the Karstarks and why they lacked men to swing the scythes.

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3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Who summoned them? Whose levy were they apart of?

That is precisely the point. His points were universal, they did not apply to one realm or one commander, but pretty much every army. 

3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If we can't answer those questions, then he's really not the same now is he?

Meribald's speech more than backs up the So Spake Martin. 

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42 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is precisely the point. His points were universal, they did not apply to one realm or one commander, but pretty much every army. 

My point was no one summoned them. They were boys who dreamt of glory and ran away ill prepared for a journey no one asked them to make. They were camp followers, not fighters.

42 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Meribald's speech more than backs up the So Spake Martin. 

From where I'm sitting, it says a bunch of boys ran away from home and died because they shouldn't have. Notice how only one died in the fighting. That's why Cat says “When their lords called, they came … but not forever" when talking about the actual soldiers.

 

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14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

My point was no one summoned them. They were boys who dreamt of glory and ran away ill prepared for a journey no one asked them to make. They were camp followers, not fighters.

Nope, you seem to be ignoring the text. 

 

Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. 

They were summoned. 

I'd also add another quote by the author

 but the north is much bigger, so it takes longer for an army to gather. And life is harsher there as well, so lords and smallfolk both need to think carefully before beating those plowshares into swords.

GRRM is pretty clear on this. 

 

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