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GAROVORKIN

Why Does the Political Right And Left Feel the Need to Demonize Each Other ?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, GAROVORKIN said:

The way you pigeonhole and categorize conservatives tells me that  your understanding of people in general is rather one-sided .

A point worth asking: where was the co-ordinated conservative response to this? It's not true that all conservatives are the same... but this was disturbingly accepted by America's right-wing.

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

There is a conspiracy. I am referring to the colossal amount of funding that goes into the right, into right-wing think tanks (AEI, Heritage, Hoover, Cato... etc), right-wing politicians and right-wing causes (NRA... ) with the very open purpose of seizing political power.
And yes, one might say there is something similar going on on the left, but there is a huge difference in intent and consequences.

It used to be that this kind of talk could be found in books by intellectuals like Noam Chomsky and Naomi Klein. But there have been more scholarly works about the influence of right-wing money on politics and economics in the past decade(s). I'm thinking of Nancy Mc Lean, Kim Phillips-Fein, or Steven M. Teles among others who have documented the links between immensely wealthy businessmen and right-wing politicians...

Then there is the problem of intent. The left is mostly about protecting the weakest members of our societies. The main drive of the left is to provide things like education, healthcare, and welfare to the poor, to protect minorities (ethnic, religious or sexual) and women's rights.

The right's main drive is the destruction of the welfare state and tax cuts for the wealthy.

...
I used to think that conservatives were only confused and misled. But research has shown that most right-wing politicians and "economists" (most "economists" you see on TV are not actual economists) know what they are doing, that the media has been bought by the same interest groups and is complicit, and that some of these people deliberately hurt other fellow humans to further their own interests.

I don't disagree with this, and I suppose that the difference is whether you separate people in positions of power from people in positions of relatively nothing.

So it's not a case to me of the right-wing going crazy so much as it is that whoever is in power can be so easily corrupted.

I'll take an example such as the Catholic Church, which you can fairly call a right-wing organisation in its social views, and a left-wing one in its social justice (notwithstanding matters like abortion, but in fairness - and I don't want to hijack the thread - I completely understand the view of life being sacred and wanting to preserve it at all costs to a religious institution).

Also, this isn't meant to become a discussion about the Church, I'm just using it as a drawn-out example.

The Catholic Church as a whole is extremely dedicated to social justice, and even has a concept of "liberation theology." It's eerily similar to Communism in many ways (although what Marx called Communism, not what Stalin did). It's derived from Jesus' clear teachings on the evils of greed and the absolute imperative that humanity share all it can with the least of its people. This message resonates with Latin Americans, and Sub-Saharan Africans, which is where the majority of Catholics live.

Yet, incredibly, the Catholic Church's hierarchy has more cardinals from Italy alone than it does from all of Latin America or Africa. Despite the fact that widespread poverty is a fact of life in the daily experience of more than half of all Catholics, the church's leaders are focused on almost wholly evil concepts, such as covering up sex-abuse, or wholly irrelevant ones, such as a new English translation of the original Greek and Latin mass.

Now - and I stress this - I'm removing most nuance from this example to illustrate a point, it's just an example that in and of itself isn't meant to encompass the whole view.

However, to me it's the trappings of power that have allowed the leadership to become so indifferent to the needs of its membership. It's not a new concept by any means - and in the case of Jesus, he specifically warned about the corruption of wealth.

While I don't have a good solution, the issue is that the same people tend to be in power over very long periods of time, and become very good at entrenching their power. Being in power, as you correctly imply, is not necessarily the same as holding elected office. If it was that simple, then term limits would've solved much of the world's inequality.

All-in-all, I don't see the average right-wing commoner as the same person as the average right-wing person in power. I think that they're different people, one sort guided by idealistic principles (which I don't have any hesitation in saying I almost entirely disagree with) and one by greed.

Yet I have a sad feeling that in the same position, a typical left-wing person would be corrupted by greed, too. To use Australia as an example, we've had literally one idealistic Prime Minister who was truly guided by principles and openly steamrolled the "partisan hacks" (to use his words) in his party who aimed to use their positions of power to appease their own interests. And not only was Gough Whitlam in office for just two and a half years in a country with three-year election cycles, he was the only one in our history to be dismissed from office by the unelected head of state.

His successor, Malcolm Fraser, stopped at nothing to get into power... and after he lost it, was nearly unrecognisable as the man who undid so much of his predecessor's work, becoming perhaps the last great right-wing Australian to date.

Edited by Yukle

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1 hour ago, GAROVORKIN said:

The way you pigeonhole and categorize  tells me that you don't really don't understand conservatives or people in general outside of your own preconception of them . You might want broaden your understanding just a bit .

The way you equivocate makes me think you have never actually considered the merits of any political argument and have a compulsion to make false equivalencies because it's just to much work to actually evaluate something critically.  Smiley face.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

The way you equivocate makes me think you have never actually considered the merits of any political argument and have a compulsion to make false equivalencies because it's just to much work to actually evaluate something critically.  Smiley face.

Im equivocating? Yeah right .  I know how to analyze and argument and it points pretty quickly draw a conclusion.   Kraken's whole argument against, understanding of and condescending  attitude towards conservatives in general   is stereotypic and inaccurate.  And for the record, I do believe that  there are large segments of the conservative  right that do a similar thing to the left . 

Edited by GAROVORKIN

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Im equivocating? Yeah right .  I know how to analyze and argument and it points pretty quickly draw a conclusion.   Kraken's whole argument against, understanding of and condescending  attitude towards conservatives in general   is stereotypic and inaccurate.  And for the record, I do believe that  there are large segments of the conservative  right that do a similar thing to the left . 

Ok, prove him wrong then.  I challenge you to do the following:

The next time you want to post some inane sophomoric observation in the US Politics thread, instead defend a GOP position that's being talked about, and see if you can do so without falling in to one of those pigeonholes.   I bet you can't actually do it.

Edited by larrytheimp

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Ok, prove him wrong then.  I challenge you to do the following:

The next time you want to post some inane sophomoric observation in the US Politics thread, instead defend a GOP position that's being talked about, and see if you can do so without falling in to one of those pigeonholes.   I bet you can't actually do it.

I got a better idea , Prove him right .

Edited by GAROVORKIN

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2 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Ok, prove him wrong then.  I challenge you to do the following:

The next time you want to post some inane sophomoric observation in the US Politics thread, instead defend a GOP position that's being talked about, and see if you can do so without falling in to one of those pigeonholes.   I bet you can't actually do it.

It is really quite simple. We are talking about two very different value systems. With a massive - in my view unbridgeable - gulf between them. And yes, the guys on the right side of the divide DO consider many of the positions on the Left as evil. Just like you feel about their positions.

The fact that left leaning individuals are able to talk in an echo chamber here on this site does not make your positions inherently more correct. You are merely among a majority of like minded individuals. But believe me, there are millions - or more probably billions - of people around the world who would consider such key issues of the Left as for example the right to abortions, as some of the most Evil causes imaginable.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It is really quite simple. We are talking about two very different value systems. With a massive - in my view unbridgeable - gulf between them. And yes, the guys on the right side of the divide DO consider many of the positions on the Left as evil. Just like you feel about their positions.

The fact that left leaning individuals are able to talk in an echo chamber here on this site does not make your positions inherently more correct. You are merely among a majority of like minded individuals. But believe me, there are millions - or more probably billions - of people around the world who would consider such key issues of the Left as for example the right to abortions, as some of the most Evil causes imaginable.

Oh I realize that anti-abortion people think abortion is evil.  What I'm looking for, is a conservative or GOP position on an issue that doesn't fall back on sexism, racism, giving more power to the super-rich, or punishing poor people.  I don't think it's too much to ask.  I mean if there are so many reasonable people on both sides surely there is one rational person capable of doing this.

ETA:. Hilarious that you mention abortion.  Anti-abortion folks literally don't give a fuck about other people's kids after they're out of the womb.  It's evil to kill a fetus but nothing wrong with letting millions starve or grow up in a shit world while the Trump's you guys idolize grow rich doing nothing.

Edited by larrytheimp

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To add onto my earlier point: While I believe education is the way to approach people who, for whatever reason, believe that Donald Trump and Conservativism is right for this country, it only works if the person is open to self-reflection and willing to discuss their beliefs in good faith. This is something that's proven time and again not to be the case with the OP.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It is really quite simple. We are talking about two very different value systems. With a massive - in my view unbridgeable - gulf between them. And yes, the guys on the right side of the divide DO consider many of the positions on the Left as evil. Just like you feel about their positions.

The fact that left leaning individuals are able to talk in an echo chamber here on this site does not make your positions inherently more correct. You are merely among a majority of like minded individuals. But believe me, there are millions - or more probably billions - of people around the world who would consider such key issues of the Left as for example the right to abortions, as some of the most Evil causes imaginable.

One side talks more out it's ass than the other one does. It's as simple as that.

The fact is the conservative movement and the Republican Party has simply lost it's goddamned mind, to the point that at least some prominent conservatives have been willing to acknowledge that. It's not all about different values, nor does it have to do with this being a left wing echo chamber. 

Conservatives can cry about "echo chambers" liberal media or whatever they want, but that doesn't change the fact they have simply lost it and have been doing it for years. And no sane person ought to let Republicans and conservatives just walk right out the intellectual trash pile they have created for themselves by saying "golly, it's just about different values". That is bullshit.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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9 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

One side talks more out it's ass than the other one does. It's as simple as that.

The fact is the conservative movement and the Republican Party has simply lost it's goddamned mind, to the point that at least some prominent conservatives have been willing to acknowledge that. It's not all about different values, nor does it have to do with this being a left wing echo chamber. Just gotta love the post modernist conservative.

Conservatives can cry about "echo chambers" liberal media or whatever they want, but that doesn't change the fact they have simply lost it and have been doing it for years. And no sane person ought to let Republicans and conservatives just walk right out the intellectual trash pile they have created for themselves by saying "golly, it's just about different values". That is bullshit.

Well that's quite a rant.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well that's quite a rant.

Time to get tough on the conservatism.

Its sorry ass silliness has worn out its welcome.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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American politics is child's play, compared to the abuse that gets chucked around on social media between supporters and opponents of Brexit.

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2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

...

The fact that left leaning individuals are able to talk in an echo chamber here on this site does not make your positions inherently more correct. You are merely among a majority of like minded individuals. But believe me, there are millions - or more probably billions - of people around the world who would consider such key issues of the Left as for example the right to abortions, as some of the most Evil causes imaginable.

I'd be surprised if that is true at a fundamental level. I would say you have to be quite privileged to start with to actually care more about an easily replaceable foetus than for a valued woman in your family.

 

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5 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

 

I'm actually reading a book atm called "When Prophecy Fails" about a pair of psychologists who infiltrated a doomsday cult and wrote about the experience, and a lot of it is really applicable to what the US is dealing with now. When people get into that headspace they will rationalize away anything, but in order for this to work the message needs to be reinforced by like-minded people around them. If we wanna break up the Fox Propaganda machine, we have to keep lines of communication open.

I

When Prophecy Fails is a classic work in social psychology. One should point out, though, that the researchers sent in eight "observers" (four to each of the two houses where the cult had meetings) and these observers presented themselves as "true believers." Some critics of the study say the group was so small to begin with that the sudden showing up of 8 new people claiming to completely buy into the group's beliefs may have made their commitment stronger than it otherwise would have been. Plus several of the group members had made drastic financial decisions in preparation for their belief in widespread natural disasters occurring soon, so it was a more extreme case than most people's commitment to political parties.

I certainly think the concept of cognitive dissonance is relevant in explaining these phenomena -- just wanted to point out that particular book gives a really tiny extreme case.

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3 hours ago, GAROVORKIN said:

I got a better idea , Prove him right .

That's really not how this works.  It's not on Larry or Kraken to provide endless proof just because you request it.

You said:

4 hours ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Im equivocating? Yeah right .  I know how to analyze and argument and it points pretty quickly draw a conclusion.   Kraken's whole argument against, understanding of and condescending  attitude towards conservatives in general   is stereotypic and inaccurate.  And for the record, I do believe that  there are large segments of the conservative  right that do a similar thing to the left . 

Ok, if Kraken's argument is stereotypical and inaccurate, back up your statement.  You can do this with either an argument that you yourself make, or a link to a study or article showing that Kraken's characterization of conservatives is wrong.  In this case I even agree with you, for whatever that's worth. 

This goes to a larger criticism of your posting style on this forum.  In general, you provide almost nothing of substance.  Looking at your last fifteen posts, ten of the fifteen are ONE SENTENCE.  Ask yourself honestly, would you want to post on a forum where most boardmembers did that?  Where the discussion is just a bunch of people trading one line comments, and asking leading questions that require extensive work to respond to accurately? 

I'm saying this because I want you to do better.  If you feel like you have something to contribute, by all means do so.  Make your contribution.  Argue your points, provide links that back them up, discuss the latest events from your perspective.  Don't content yourself with pithy one line posts over and over again.

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6 hours ago, GAROVORKIN said:

The way you pigeonhole and categorize  tells me that you don't really don't understand conservatives or people in general outside of your own preconception of them . You might want broaden your understanding just a bit .

You are 100% wrong.

He, however, is 100% correct.

But then -- you know nothing, and sure as heck are no Jon Snow! :rolleyes:

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The Church isn't a very good example.  For every Liberation Theology Movement -- which the Church hierarchy itself allied with the various states' establishment to shut down -- it has always depended upon being the right hand of the established power, when it wasn't literally fighting with armies etc. to BE the entire established power. That's how established religions operate.  Or for another example, see the Church in Spain firmly backing the fascists, in alliance with both Mussolini and the nazis, as the Germans used Spanish towns and people as a testing ground for their new weapons, planes and bombs.

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Here's another good generalist viewpoint on conservatives vs. liberals that will be sure to make Garovorkin reply with #notallconservatives while not reading the article: conservatives are in general more fearful than liberals, and if you make them feel less afraid they start warming to liberal views.

And that does get to one of the basis points in the US at least (and some other developed nations, but mostly Western ones) - conservatives and liberals have deep, hereditary and genetic basis points that dictate to them how they feel, and these are not easily swayed by public opinion. Conservatives are in general about equally emotionally driven towards fear, joy, anger, sadness and disgust; liberals are heavily swayed by anger and sadness and the others are much weaker. Anger and sadness correspond to the moral values of fairness and care for others; fear corresponds to authority, disgust to purity, and joy to ingroupness. 

So while it's true that you probably aren't going to get very far yelling at someone, making them feel something different is going to be far more effective in changing their viewpoint than making them think about something. 

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5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

So while it's true that you probably aren't going to get very far yelling at someone, making them feel something different is going to be far more effective in changing their viewpoint than making them think about something. 

Cool study, kind of creepy thinking that levels of fear experienced by a four year in old in  laboratory are predictive of their political leanings twenty years later.

Also, to any self-identified conservatives or republicans out there, remember that you are loved and safe.  Stop by for a free hug and a reminder that the universe loves you and that this is the safest time in human history to be alive.

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19 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Cool study, kind of creepy thinking that levels of fear experienced by a four year in old in  laboratory are predictive of their political leanings twenty years later.

Also, to any self-identified conservatives or republicans out there, remember that you are loved and safe.  Stop by for a free hug and a reminder that the universe loves you and that this is the safest time in human history to be alive.

It also neatly explains the weird thing about how GenX is more conservative than boomers - because they grew up in the 70s and 80s, where nuclear armageddon was around every single god damn day. 

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