Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

[HexMachina]

23 hours ago, Nevets said:

The Greyjoys are even more dysfunctional than the Lannisters, and the Baratheons were at odds from the very beginning of the story.  As for the Tullys, while they had disagreements, there was no plotting against each other or other serioius conflict between them.  They got along pretty well.  I certainly expect some disagreements and fraught conversations among the Starks, but at the end of the day, they still love and miss each other, even Arya and Sansa.   So I don't see them actively plotting against one another.

You seem to forget that Lysa was a Tully. There was most certainly plotting there  

[Nevets]

2 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

You seem to forget that Lysa was a Tully. There was most certainly plotting there  

My bad.  I did forget about Lysa.  I was focused on the group at Riverrun.  Still, I have serious doubts that the Starks will end up fighting each other (although I can see proxies doing so).   They still like one another too much, and are still sane (even Arya).

[Lollygag]

55 minutes ago, Nevets said:

My bad.  I did forget about Lysa.  I was focused on the group at Riverrun.  Still, I have serious doubts that the Starks will end up fighting each other (although I can see proxies doing so).   They still like one another too much, and are still sane (even Arya).

Thinking fondly of someone one hasn’t seen or even spoken to in years is very different than meeting that person much changed and interacting with them over some very high-stress situations. Do you see someone you haven't seen since you were both children and assume they are unchanged? That you still know them? People change a great deal through childhood and the teen years.

The Starks will want to trust Jon. But he said kill the boy, let the man be born. It was the boy that the Starks knew. The man, the Lord Commander, and whatever else might affect Jon in his stabbing, is a stranger.

The Starks will want to trust Arya. But will they find it easy to trust the FM and their influence on her?

The Starks will want to trust Rickon. But will they find it easy to trust the Manderlys and whatever influence the Skagosi may have had on Rickon who is no longer a four year old baby?

The Starks will want to trust Sansa. But will they find it easy to trust the influence that the KL Court, the Lannisters and LF have had on her?

The Starks will want to trust Bran. But will they find it easy to trust Bloodraven thought to be long dead and his influence on Bran?

 

[kissdbyfire]

On 08/03/2018 at 2:15 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It's going to be noted that there was a preteen girl who looked a lot like Jon, hung out around him

Huh? Jeyne Poole looks nothing like Jon...

[Varysblackfyre321]

34 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Huh? Jeyne Poole looks nothing like Jon...

If someone shoots up a building when  he or she has  every reason to think it's full of people and more importantly, he or she  does think it's full of people are they somehow vindicated of it having not been full? No. Based on their information they were they'd be putting lives at a lot of lives at risk if they shot up the building and still they continued to do it. Jon wasn't trying to bring Jeyne Poole(Sansa's pretty friend) to the wall, he was trying to bring Arya Stark(his preteen sister who looks like a little girl version of him), and was willing to put everything risk for her. 

[Shi Qiang]

On 3/4/2018 at 1:48 PM, Lollygag said:

He’s not Saint Jon. He never was. There’s a view about the fandom that Jon is selfless, a pureish hero, and it’s a misread of his character. I suspect it being a long time since a new book has been published + the show turning him into an insipid Messianic Disney character has something to do with this. I really like Jon as a character, but I don’t think he’s going to be the bland good-guy snooze-fest who will give us our big Starky fist pump moment as some seem to.

 

In AGOT Tyrion II, Jon’s feelings about his family are compared to Tyrion’s feelings about his family and we know how that turned out. Tyrion says that Jon has had similar thoughts of causing harm to his family which Jon denies, but Tyrion questions him again, we don’t get another denial from Jon. We see how deep his rage and despair is over his situation.

 

In ASOS Jon XII, we see that Jon’s berserker moment was triggered by remembering the moment Robb made him realize that he was inferior. Emmett became Robb, and Jon almost kills him. I’ve noted elsewhere in the forum about blood in the mouth being symbolic of a very real intent to kill in that moment.

 

Jon then acknowledges to himself how much he wants Winterfell for himself. It’s emphasized by the arrival of Ghost. The degree and violence of the want of Winterfell is compared to Ghost’s wanting to kill, eat, like a wolf hunting its prey. This is consistent with the red anger Jon feels in AGOT Tyrion II and earlier when fighting Emmett (Robb).

 

There’s set up for Jon to become a much darker character. Being stabbed, betrayed, and spending too much time in one’s wolf is apt to make this worse. Actually, there’s a lot of set up for most of the characters to become darker, not just Jon, and I will say that the set up for some of the other characters seems to be a darker path than Jon.  When I say there is set up for Jon to become darker, this should probably be kept in perspective with the events in the books and the set up for other characters, as well.

But within each of these passages, there’s the other side of Jon. He’s also appalled at the idea of hurting his family. He’s upset about his attack on Emmett. As much as he wants Winterfell, Jon has his limits.

 

So if we rightfully abandon the Saint Jon who never existed, what do you see in Jon’s future given that he’s very deeply conflicted? How will what Jon’s gone through (betrayal, stabbing, coma/death/resurrection, spending too much time in Ghost, desperation) affect his future decisions? Given that Jon’s feelings are compared to Tyrion’s and we know how that turned out, how likely is it that Jon’s anger could turn him against one or more of his family under certain circumstances?  Will Jon use rationalization to get Winterfell? If the NW is damned (really looks like it is) and thusly useless against the fight with the Others, will Jon use this as rationalization to steal Winterfell from his siblings? I’ll add that I think wanting Winterfell is more about proving the world wrong about him much like how Tyrion wants Casterly Rock. If Jon comes to see Winterfell as the only way he proves to himself that he is just as good as a true-born, not something to be dumped in the midden heap of the NW, then how might this affect Jon’s decisions and views about Winterfell? I’m quite sure we won’t be getting Saint Jon as he never existed, but I’m equally as sure that Jon won’t turn evil (or as evil as any other character seems set up to be), but as for the broad space between Saint and evil, I’m not sure.

 

 

 

 

 

AGOT Tyrion II

 

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son. "What are you reading about?" he asked.

 

"Dragons," Tyrion told him.

 

"What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

 

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

 

"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

 

"Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

 

"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't …"

 

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow. "Well, no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you. I'm certain Lady Stark treats you as if you were one of her own. And your brother Robb, he's always been kind, and why not? He gets Winterfell and you get the Wall. And your father … he must have good reasons for packing you off to the Night's Watch …"

 

"Stop it," Jon Snow said, his face dark with anger. "The Night's Watch is a noble calling!"

 

Tyrion laughed. "You're too smart to believe that. The Night's Watch is a midden heap for all the misfits of the realm. I've seen you looking at Yoren and his boys. Those are your new brothers, Jon Snow, how do you like them? Sullen peasants, debtors, poachers, rapers, thieves, and bastards like you all wind up on the Wall, watching for grumkins and snarks and all the other monsters your wet nurse warned you about. The good part is there are no grumkins or snarks, so it's scarcely dangerous work. The bad part is you freeze your balls off, but since you're not allowed to breed anyway, I don't suppose that matters."

 

"Stop it!" the boy screamed. He took a step forward, his hands coiling into fists, close to tears.

 

Suddenly, absurdly, Tyrion felt guilty. He took a step forward, intending to give the boy a reassuring pat on the shoulder or mutter some word of apology.

 

He never saw the wolf, where it was or how it came at him. One moment he was walking toward Snow and the next he was flat on his back on the hard rocky ground, the book spinning away from him as he fell, the breath going out of him at the sudden impact, his mouth full of dirt and blood and rotting leaves. As he tried to get up, his back spasmed painfully. He must have wrenched it in the fall. He ground his teeth in frustration, grabbed a root, and pulled himself back to a sitting position. "Help me," he said to the boy, reaching up a hand.

 

 

 

AGOT Jon VIII

 

"As you say, my lord." It was not the thought of scars that troubled Jon; it was the rest of it. Maester Aemon had given him milk of the poppy, yet even so, the pain had been hideous. At first it had felt as if his hand were still aflame, burning day and night. Only plunging it into basins of snow and shaved ice gave any relief at all. Jon thanked the gods that no one but Ghost saw him writhing on his bed, whimpering from the pain. And when at last he did sleep, he dreamt, and that was even worse. In the dream, the corpse he fought had blue eyes, black hands, and his father's face, but he dared not tell Mormont that.

 

…

 

Whatever demonic force moved Othor had been driven out by the flames; the twisted thing they had found in the ashes had been no more than cooked meat and charred bone. Yet in his nightmare he faced it again … and this time the burning corpse wore Lord Eddard's features. It was his father's skin that burst and blackened, his father's eyes that ran liquid down his cheeks like jellied tears. Jon did not understand why that should be or what it might mean, but it frightened him more than he could say.

 

 

 

ASOS Jon XII

 

He was almost ready to lower his blade and call a halt when Emmett feinted low and came in over his shield with a savage forehand slash that caught Jon on the temple. He staggered, his helm and head both ringing from the force of the blow. For half a heartbeat the world beyond his eyeslit was a blur.

 

And then the years were gone, and he was back at Winterfell once more, wearing a quilted leather coat in place of mail and plate. His sword was made of wood, and it was Robb who stood facing him, not Iron Emmett.

 

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

 

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

 

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken.

 

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"

 

No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. "I'm sorry," he muttered. "Emmett, are you hurt?"

 

Iron Emmett pulled his battered helm off. "Was there some part of yield you could not comprehend, Lord Snow?" It was said amiably, though. Emmett was an amiable man, and he loved the song of swords. "Warrior defend me," he groaned, "now I know how Qhorin Halfhand must have felt."

 

That was too much. Jon wrenched free of his friends and retreated to the armory, alone. His ears were still ringing from the blow Emmett had dealt him. He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir.

 

It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

 

His friends were still out in the practice yard, but Jon was in no fit state to face them. He left the armory by the back, descending a steep flight of stone steps to the wormways, the tunnels that linked the castle's keeps and towers below the earth. It was short walk to the bathhouse, where he took a cold plunge to wash the sweat off and soaked in a hot stone tub. The warmth took some of the ache from his muscles and made him think of Winterfell's muddy pools, steaming and bubbling in the godswood. Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins.

 

You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

 

…

 

Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . . though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder's queen, but still . . .

 

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

 

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

 

It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. "Ghost?" He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. "Ghost!" he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. "Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams." The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

 

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

 

 

 

Victarion vs. Euron

Tyrion vs. Cersei and Jaime

Yronwood + Drinkwater vs. Martell

Why not Stark vs. Stark.  It's only fair.  No family should be immune from fighting among themselves.  However, I doubt it's a squabble over the ruins of Winterfell.  I can see a scenario where Jon is resurrected by the white walkers and comes back as an icey wight.  Rickon the wildling and Bran the greenseer will have to oppose him. 

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If someone shoots up a building when  he or she has  every reason to think it's full of people and more importantly, he or she  does think it's full of people are they somehow vindicated of it having not been full? No. Based on their information they were they'd be putting lives at a lot of lives at risk if they shot up the building and still they continued to do it. Jon wasn't trying to bring Jeyne Poole(Sansa's pretty friend) to the wall, he was trying to bring Arya Stark(his preteen sister who looks like a little girl version of him), and was willing to put everything risk for her. 

So? I have no idea why the silly analogy, it has nothing to do w/ my reply to you. I quoted a very specific part of your post where you said people would notice "a preteen girl who looked a lot like Jon". And I simply pointed out the absurdity of the argument, since Jeyne Poole looks nothing like Jon. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So? I have no idea why the silly analogy, it has nothing to do w/ my reply to you. I quoted a very specific part of your post where you said people would notice "a preteen girl who looked a lot like Jon". And I simply pointed out the absurdity of the argument, since Jeyne Poole looks nothing like Jon. 

Again he was not trying to bring Jeyne Poole to the wall-he was trying to bring Arya Stark who based on the information he had was the new lady Bolton, and who'd be the one to which Mance would pick up to carry to the wall which indeed would put everything at risk. Based on his information he'd be bringing a girl who looks exactly  like Jon-his sister Arya Stark. The analogy fits your argument. You'd have to absolve the person who thought he or she was shooting up a building full of people when he or she wasn't. You wouldn't do that would you? Of course not. Because you'd recognize in their minds their action could put the lives of a lot of people at risk.   The information characters act off matter in determining whether or not it's right to condemn or praise them for taking it. 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Again he was not trying to bring Jeyne Poole to the wall-he was trying to bring Arya Stark who based on the information he had was the new lady Bolton, and who'd be the one to which Mance would pick up to carry to the wall which indeed would put everything at risk.  The analogy fits your argument. You want to say Jon is vindicated, t by virtue of having accidentally set Mance loose to bring Jeyne Poole over to the wall, when his intention was to let this turn coat go to bring Arya who looks like a little girl version of him, well you'd have to absolve the person who thought he or she was shooting up a building full of people when he or she wasn't. You wouldn't do that would you? Of course not.  The information characters act off matter in determining whether or not it's right to condemn or praise them for taking it.

For the third and final time, this has fuck all to do with the fact that you said people would note "a preteen girl who looked a lot like Jon". Which is ridiculous because Jeyne Poole doesn't look like Jon at all. It seems you are unable to simply own the mistake you made, and are instead dancing around the issue by bringing up other points. 

I'm done w/ this now. 

[Blackwater Revenant]

18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If someone shoots up a building when  he or she has  every reason to think it's full of people and more importantly, he or she  does think it's full of people are they somehow vindicated of it having not been full? No. Based on their information they were they'd be putting lives at a lot of lives at risk if they shot up the building and still they continued to do it. Jon wasn't trying to bring Jeyne Poole(Sansa's pretty friend) to the wall, he was trying to bring Arya Stark(his preteen sister who looks like a little girl version of him), and was willing to put everything risk for her. 

Yeah, I get what you're trying to say with this analogy, however, it's quite absurd for many reasons. Just to name a couple:

First, this is a weak example to use, as you are trying to draw an equivalency between a deplorable and willfully harmful act, and a compassionate and humanitarian act, in a sad and failed attempt to portray Jon in a bad light.

Secondly, you are making up an extremely unlikely and contrived scenario, and stating it as if it's a guaranteed fact, in order to support your fabricated argument.

First off, Jon would not have Arya paraded around in front of everyone, making her presence at the Wall common knowledge; this would be kept as secretive as possible. (Seven Hells, a simple cloak with a hood, and your whole assertion is foiled) Secondly, Arya and Jon are not identical twins. Just because they share some of the common traits of the Starks, that does not mean that everyone who sees them, just out of the blue, is going to make the connection, and assume that this girl is Arya. It's ridiculous that you are aware that an imposter can be used in Arya's place, in order to marry her off in front of all the Lords in the North, but think some random girl showing up at the Wall, with all the thousands of new faces around there, is going to be noticed, and recognized as Arya by the men of the Watch. 

Sorry, but this just another of your failed attempts to make shit up in order to slander characters, and accuse them of committing acts that are in no way supported by the text.

[Blackwater Revenant]

On 08/03/2018 at 5:40 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jon's friends made it clear they would not let him leave willing. Jon could either kill his brothers or go back with them. He chose the latter. He deserves no credit for his behavior in this debacle. I'm sure there are multiple of brothers to which have family's who now under threat of death because of the war. Much greater than the Starks even. We didn't see any of those brothers try to leave out. The fact Jon did is the only real thing that counts in the end. 

Jon's friends? You mean the same friends that shortly before, hated Jon, as he was inadvertently bullying them? You seem to want to ignore the fact that this was shortly after Jon arrived at the Wall, and he has experienced a whole lot since, and has matured and grown exponentially since his attempted desertion. Jon is not the same naive and selfish boy that he was then. He has since shown that he is now completely dedicated to the Watch, and his commitment.

[Blackwater Revenant]

On 08/03/2018 at 1:49 AM, Lollygag said:

I suppose you can make the case that his oath factored into the decision, but after getting stabbed and betrayed, that seems likely to be a lesser priority for him though I think he'll be just as committed to fighting the Others. 

I agree, but my point being that it's not necessarily exclusive that its his vows holding him back from accepting Stannis' offer, but his commitment and  the character he has shown with his dedication to the cause of the Watch. Whether or not, due to the current or upcoming circumstances, he breaks his vows or leaves the Watch, his commitment to doing what is right, and necessary, overrides his desire to have Winterfell.

And as I pointed out in my subsequent posts, I don't believe Jon's desire to have Winterfell stems from actually wanting to be a Lord ruling a castle. He doesn't really want Winterfell, those feelings are just a manifestation of his longing to be a true Stark. He wants Winterfell because being a bastard means that he can never have it. To be granted Lordship of Winterfell would be vindication to him that he belongs there, and is in fact a true son of his father. But stealing Winterfell, or acquiring it at the peril of one of his siblings, would not give him the vindication he is looking for. 

I understand that you are proposing that he may be changed after what has transpired, but if that is the case, I don't feel that his prior desires would then be relevant in establishing a motive for him to attempt to take Winterfell.

Quote

But he declined Winterfell because it came with the decision to cut down the heart tree, not as much for the oath.

Yes, but cutting down the Heart tree is symbolic of him disrespecting his family, and turning against them in order to aquire Winterfell. Again, something that would not give him Winterfell in a way that would coincide with the reason he wants it.

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

And as I pointed out in my subsequent posts, I don't believe Jon's desire to have Winterfell stems from actually wanting to be a Lord ruling a castle. He doesn't really want Winterfell, those feelings are just a manifestation of his longing to be a true Stark. He wants Winterfell because being a bastard means that he can never have it. To be granted Lordship of Winterfell would be vindication to him that he belongs there, and is in fact a true son of his father. But stealing Winterfell, or acquiring it at the peril of one of his siblings, would not give him the vindication he is looking for. 

I couldn't possibly agree more, well said. I actually agree w/ everything else you've said.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

47 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

I agree, but my point being that it's not necessarily exclusive that its his vows holding him back from accepting Stannis' offer, but his commitment and  the character he has shown with his dedication to the cause of the Watch. Whether or not, due to the current or upcoming circumstances, he breaks his vows or leaves the Watch, his commitment to doing what is right, and necessary, overrides his desire to have Winterfell.

And as I pointed out in my subsequent posts, I don't believe Jon's desire to have Winterfell stems from actually wanting to be a Lord ruling a castle. He doesn't really want Winterfell, those feelings are just a manifestation of his longing to be a true Stark. He wants Winterfell because being a bastard means that he can never have it. To be granted Lordship of Winterfell would be vindication to him that he belongs there, and is in fact a true son of his father. But stealing Winterfell, or acquiring it at the peril of one of his siblings, would not give him the vindication he is looking for. 

I understand that you are proposing that he may be changed after what has transpired, but if that is the case, I don't feel that his prior desires would then be relevant in establishing a motive for him to attempt to take Winterfell.

Yes, but cutting down the Heart tree is symbolic of him disrespecting his family, and turning against them in order to aquire Winterfell. Again, something that would not give him Winterfell in a way that would coincide with the reason he wants it.

Nicely put. As to the bold, I very much agree. I think this may be part of the "let the man be born" lesson he is learning. That in order to save his family (and Winterfell), he has to become something bigger than just the son of Winterfell. He has to become the King of Winter.

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

I agree, but my point being that it's not necessarily exclusive that its his vows holding him back from accepting Stannis' offer, but his commitment and  the character he has shown with his dedication to the cause of the Watch. Whether or not, due to the current or upcoming circumstances, he breaks his vows or leaves the Watch, his commitment to doing what is right, and necessary, overrides his desire to have Winterfell.

And as I pointed out in my subsequent posts, I don't believe Jon's desire to have Winterfell stems from actually wanting to be a Lord ruling a castle. He doesn't really want Winterfell, those feelings are just a manifestation of his longing to be a true Stark. He wants Winterfell because being a bastard means that he can never have it. To be granted Lordship of Winterfell would be vindication to him that he belongs there, and is in fact a true son of his father. But stealing Winterfell, or acquiring it at the peril of one of his siblings, would not give him the vindication he is looking for. 

I understand that you are proposing that he may be changed after what has transpired, but if that is the case, I don't feel that his prior desires would then be relevant in establishing a motive for him to attempt to take Winterfell.

Yes, but cutting down the Heart tree is symbolic of him disrespecting his family, and turning against them in order to aquire Winterfell. Again, something that would not give him Winterfell in a way that would coincide with the reason he wants it.

Bolded 1: I don't really disagree, but I don't care for the phrase "doing what's right" in much of any context as it's so vague. Most people except mustache-twirling villains justify their views as "doing what's right" so it's rather a meaningless phrase for me. And taking Winterfell from his sibs can be justified as the "right thing" under some circumstances (Bowen Marsh irrevocably screws up the NW placing priority on Winterfell as the second front, all of the other sibs come with baggage which might not be the best thing against the Others, etc)

I think sticking to the specifics as to Jon's reasoning will create a more meaningful discussion. Jon specifically cited his commitment to the old gods. I don't really disagree with the idea that his family (and family tradition) is guiding his decision to reject Winterfell to some extent, but it wasn't what was cited by Jon in the text. It was the old gods and I prefer to prioritize the words which actually made it onto the page unless you have something I've overlooked.

ASOS Jon XII

His friends were still out in the practice yard, but Jon was in no fit state to face them. He left the armory by the back, descending a steep flight of stone steps to the wormways, the tunnels that linked the castle's keeps and towers below the earth. It was short walk to the bathhouse, where he took a cold plunge to wash the sweat off and soaked in a hot stone tub. The warmth took some of the ache from his muscles and made him think of Winterfell's muddy pools, steaming and bubbling in the godswood. Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins.

You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

…

Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . . though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder's queen, but still . . .

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. "Ghost?" He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. "Ghost!" he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. "Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams." The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

He had his answer then.

 

I agree completely with your explanation of Jon's wanting Winterfell. But ASOIAF's characters are not always so insightful to say the least. And Jon is deeply angry (and hurt) and recent experiences look to exacerbate this, not lead to greater insight as anger usually works against insight. I don't think his previous desires for Winterfell will magically disappear as you refer to in bolded 2 unless he reaches some understanding on the matter.  I just can't overlook the extremity of Jon's anger which I outlined in the OP which also sited that while Jon truly loves his family, his feelings about them are also quite mixed and at times very dark. Suddenly making strong feelings irrelevant seems a rather odd writing choice to me which is why I don't think they'll be wiped away without something specifically causing that. Arbitrarily wiping away inconvenient character feelings which interfere with the plot is a common show criticism

 

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

I would have emphasised this paragraph instead of the one you used.

 

[Darth Sidious]

4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Bolded 1: I don't really disagree, but I don't care for the phrase "doing what's right" in much of any context as it's so vague. Most people except mustache-twirling villains justify their views as "doing what's right" so it's rather a meaningless phrase for me. And taking Winterfell from his sibs can be justified as the "right thing" under some circumstances (Bowen Marsh irrevocably screws up the NW placing priority on Winterfell as the second front, all of the other sibs come with baggage which might not be the best thing against the Others, etc)

I think sticking to the specifics as to Jon's reasoning will create a more meaningful discussion. Jon specifically cited his commitment to the old gods. I don't really disagree with the idea that his family (and family tradition) is guiding his decision to reject Winterfell to some extent, but it wasn't what was cited by Jon in the text. It was the old gods and I prefer to prioritize the words which actually made it onto the page unless you have something I've overlooked.

ASOS Jon XII

 

His friends were still out in the practice yard, but Jon was in no fit state to face them. He left the armory by the back, descending a steep flight of stone steps to the wormways, the tunnels that linked the castle's keeps and towers below the earth. It was short walk to the bathhouse, where he took a cold plunge to wash the sweat off and soaked in a hot stone tub. The warmth took some of the ache from his muscles and made him think of Winterfell's muddy pools, steaming and bubbling in the godswood. Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins.

 

You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

 

…

 

Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . . though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder's queen, but still . . .

 

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

 

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

 

It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. "Ghost?" He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. "Ghost!" he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. "Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams." The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

 

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

 

He had his answer then.

 

 

 

I agree completely with your explanation of Jon's wanting Winterfell. But ASOIAF's characters are not always so insightful to say the least. And Jon is deeply angry (and hurt) and recent experiences look to exacerbate this, not lead to greater insight as anger usually works against insight. I don't think his previous desires for Winterfell will magically disappear as you refer to in bolded 2 unless he reaches some understanding on the matter.  I just can't overlook the extremity of Jon's anger which I outlined in the OP which also sited that while Jon truly loves his family, his feelings about them are also quite mixed and at times very dark. Suddenly making strong feelings irrelevant seems a rather odd writing choice to me which is why I don't think they'll be wiped away without something specifically causing that. Arbitrarily wiping away inconvenient character feelings which interfere with the plot is a common show criticism

 

Allow me to cut in.  Okay.  So Jon in his heart wants Winterfell.  He holds back when Stannis gave him the chance because he can't legally leave the watch and Winterfell is not his to take.  Actually, Winterfell is not for Stannis to give.  Stan doesn't have the right to decide who gets to plant their ass in Winterfell.  Stannis was putting the cart before the horse.  Let's go further and say Stannis is not recognized by Westeros as its king.  Hell, many on that wall doesn't think Stannis is the king.  Stannis failed to sell his propaganda against the Lannisters, it didn't stick.  He has no conclusive proof.

Wolves follow a different set of rules than man's laws.  Their concept doesn't recognize titles and deeds to property.  They take what they can when they can.  So who knows what he might do if Jon starts thinking like a wolf.  His time with the savages already had a marked effect on how he thinks.  Time inside Ghost might push him even further into the edge.   He will abandon his watch and take Winterfell is he thinks it will save Arya.  Hell, he might abandon his watch if he thinks Arya is dead and look for the people who did it.   His time as the Wight Wolf will only make him more savage.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Jon's friends? You mean the same friends that shortly before, hated Jon, as he was inadvertently bullying them? You seem to want to ignore the fact that this was shortly after Jon arrived at the Wall, and he has experienced a whole lot since, and has matured and grown exponentially since his attempted desertion. Jon is not the same naive and selfish boy that he was then. He has since shown that he is now completely dedicated to the Watch, and his commitment.

Yes, Jon's friends. Do you not think they at this point of Jon's desertion had become that? Of course they were. If you take issue with my claim of him having primarily  turned back because he'd have to kill them(his dear friends) to leave please do so. Yes, he's experienced character growth. So have most POV characters who've stuck around. He has since shown in matters involving the Starks, and their wellfare he is torn.  Natural of course they are his family. He will not abandon the watch for some random girl who he lost his virginty too(Ygritte), or for the promise of Winterfel(such was Stannis's offer), but for the Starks if he has the chance to save them, to save one of them, to help them at the cost of his vows...there's a real chance he'd take it. If Robb came over to the watch begging Jon foresake his vows to help him on Robb's mission to avenge their father doesn't die(even if it at the point where he concocted it is already dead and would only suceed and causing loads more death just so he doesn't have to bend the knee to his father's killers), along with him due to not siring an heir in time and insure Robb's child is protected should Robb die afterwards, can anyone honestly say they don't think there's a chance Jon would take it? I don't think so. I think if Jon did however he'd be forever shamed for having to have his brother bribe(or blackmail depending on how Robb attended to get 100+ for the watch), to get him out of his vows. Likewise if he didn't it still haunt him. 

5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

t what you're trying to say with this analogy, however, it's quite absurd for many reasons. Just to name a couple:

First, this is a weak example to use, as you are trying to draw an equivalency between a deplorable and willfully harmful act, and a compassionate and humanitarian act, in a sad and failed attempt to portray Jon in a bad light.

Not really. The example is extreme because the argument of "Jennye Pool looks nothing like Arya" calls for such an extreme example because the logic is ludicrous. Both acts are committed with specific knowledge in mind. No one should use knowledge neither party knows about to excuse either' actions. If Jon's plan was not irresponsible, such things of Jeyne Poole having taken up the name Arya Stark to be Ramsey's wife simply don't matter. 

5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Secondly, Arya and Jon are not identical twins. Just because they share some of the common traits of the Starks, that does not mean that everyone who sees them, just out of the blue, is going to make the connection, and assume that this girl is Arya.

Of course they're not identical twins. One's a boy, one's a girl. Obvious to all onlookers which is which without name tags on each proffessing their identity. But they do look really alike to the point where yes a lot of people would at least suspect they are related for the famial resemblce. No, not everyone would look at them together, and all conclude the little girl he'd be spotted with is Arya Stark. But, enough would arrive at such a conclusion and have the suspecions to where it would put the watch at risk.

5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

First off, Jon would not have Arya paraded around in front of everyone, making her presence at the Wall common knowledge; this would be kept as secretive as possible. (Seven Hells, a simple cloak with a hood, and your whole assertion is foiled)

He does not have to parade her around Castle Black. All he needs to do is to be seen with him multiple times for eye brows to be raised and rumours to circulate and someone(s), eventually hitting the mark as to the identity of the girl. A cloak would help. But, people's interest will not be quilled. The question of who is still this little girl hanging around Jon will still be there and people(specificaly the Watch's establishment), will try to find out, and why the need to try to conceal her face. To which people will try to catch a glimpse of to see and surely remark the resemblance between the two. The person(s) who'd spotted her will take note of the preteen girl who looks like Jon who came to the wall and asking specifically to see Jon Snow, or in the worst situation her asking for her "half-brother Jon". 

5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

It's ridiculous that you are aware that an imposter can be used in Arya's place, in order to marry her off in front of all the Lords in the North, but think some random girl showing up at the Wall, with all the thousands of new faces around there, is going to be noticed, and recognized as Arya by the men of the Watch. 

If she's seen with Jon, yes everyone already has their eyes on him(specifically the brotherhood), and thus anyone he's seen interacting with on more than one occasion will be taken note of. He's a very important man after all.

The little girl, he'd be seen with on more repeatedly may be mistaken for some new cunny by some, but there will be rumours of the preteen girl who looks like their lord commander, being Arya Stark.

 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Not really. The example is extreme because the argument of "Jennye Pool looks nothing like Arya" calls for such an extreme example because the logic is ludicrous.

The argument "Jeyne Poole looks nothing like Jon Snow" is not an argument, but a fact. Yes, it is that simple. What is ludicrous is trying to twist this and conveniently forget that you argued that people would notice a girl who looks like Jon Snow.

 

[Darth Sidious]

What's important is Jon's intentions and it is an indicator of his thought process.  He was planning to take Arya to the wall and to later keep her away from her husband.  That act is not in the best interest of the NW.  Ramsay and everyone on the outside will assume the NW is sticking its nose where it doesn't belong.  Yeah, that act will put the men of the night's watch in danger.  Jon was basically putting his brothers in danger for the sake of the girl whom he thought was Arya.