Azor Ahai was Azor Ahai

[Olorin81]

Yeah I really think Melisandre was blowing smoke up Stannis's bum with that one. I think it's also funny that many people in Westeros and Essos took the red comet in the sky to be meant for them, for some it was just jest like the Night's Watch calling it the Old Bear's torch, to the red woman and Dani taking it as a more serious sign that was meant for them.

[Megorova]

There is no concept of reincarnation in any religion of Planetos. So all those prophets, that say about Azor Ahai coming again, or being born again, only mean that, same as during First Long Night, there was a hero, that saved people from darkness, now there will be someone like him again, who will defeat the Others. Though it doesn't mean, that they are the same soul, or that there will be another Nissa Nissa, for current Great Hero.  

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Olorin81 said:

Yeah I really think Melisandre was blowing smoke up Stannis's bum with that one. I think it's also funny that many people in Westeros and Essos took the red comet in the sky to be meant for them, for some it was just jest like the Night's Watch calling it the Old Bear's torch, to the red woman and Dani taking it as a more serious sign that was meant for them.

Mel is always blowing smoke... up someone's bum or just randomly anywhere. I mean, she's so full of it. And at the same time, she does have powers. Excellent character, don't trust her one bit. She's a zealot, and zealots are always, always, dangerous. No exceptions. I think Mel will come to the realisation that she was wrong, and that she doesn't know half as much as she thinks she does. And that's when it will get really interesting... what will she do then? 

29 minutes ago, Megorova said:

There is no concept of reincarnation in any religion of Planetos. So all those prophets, that say about Azor Ahai coming again, or being born again, only mean that, same as during First Long Night, there was a hero, that saved people from darkness, now there will be someone like him again, who will defeat the Others. Though it doesn't mean, that they are the same soul, or that there will be another Nissa Nissa, for current Great Hero.  

And that's why all religions are kinda rubbish, there and here. Because there will always be "someone".  So just feed the people w/ some bs "hero/saviour" legend, and they're all eating out of the palm of your hand. 

[LynnS]

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Mel is always blowing smoke... up someone's bum or just randomly anywhere. I mean, she's so full of it. And at the same time, she does have powers. Excellent character, don't trust her one bit. She's a zealot, and zealots are always, always, dangerous. No exceptions. I think Mel will come to the realisation that she was wrong, and that she doesn't know half as much as she thinks she does. And that's when it will get really interesting... what will she do then? 

And that's why all religions are kinda rubbish, there and here. Because there will always be "someone".  So just feed the people w/ some bs "hero/saviour" legend, and they're all eating out of the palm of your hand. 

I'd say that's about the size of it.  Azor Ahai is a figure out of the past with legends wrapped around his deeds (whatever they were).  He's not making a come-back but someone will end up an AA type figure probably wielding the legendary weapon that AA forged making that someone the warrior of light, the sword of justice.

I think AA was a smith/warrior/sorcerer and the legend of the forging of the sword is the recipe for dragonsteel.  First tempered in water like an ordinary steel; then in the heart of a lion (king's blood); then in the heart of a dragon (Nissa Nissa):

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

We see the same transformation when Dany becomes the dragon:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

Nissa Nissa is likely a dragon housing the soul of AA's beloved wife. 

It might even be the case that the sword is forged with metal from the heart of a fallen star (meteorite).

[Black Crow]

"he ...  shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Thus Our Mel introduces Stan the Man as the chosen one, but earlier in AGOT the late and unlamented Viserys introduced Khal Drogo as a mighty warrior, "Aegon [the conqueror] come again"

In doing so he was likening the two, not suggesting Drogo was a reincarnation, and in just the same way Mel is proclaiming that once he pulls the sword out of the stone, Stannis Baratheon will be every bit as good as that Azor Ahai bloke was back in the day - not that he's going to have to tool down to the registry office and change his name

[The Mother of The Others]

23 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Mel is always blowing smoke up someone's bum ...and will come to the realisation that she was wrong, ... what will she do then? 

I have faith in her ability to acclimate and find useful heroism by the end.   With the Mance business, she seems to be finding her way in the dark as if her eyes are adjusting Jon- ward. 

She's a mutt, magically.   The clear sighted seers are, i believe, your fire- only devotees who don't have any conflicting voices in their head.  Like that rhollr bloke who's gotten in with Victarion.  He sees true, but shallow.  He's a 'traffic-and-weather-together' prophet. 

Whereas Mel dives deeper and carries a more impressive portfolio (only to me, it would seem) as a mixed child of shadow, flame, blood magic, and who knows what else her magic mystery tour includes.  Maybe her nature is conflicted and she's like a rheostat switch that buzzes with power in her head interfering with the radio signal other fire- witches receive more clearly..... but then again maybe they're all not looking as deeply into the fire  (into the situation) as she, the hard news journalist.   The real power within range of her, Raven, pinged on her radar.   She knows him not, so classified him as a hostile, as The hostile, which we see as a mistake...but then we have an unfair advantage don't we.  And she played that vision correctly from a strategic position- - anything that powerful should rightly be feared, and instantly becomes the lead suspect for her Ice nemesis.   

She'll either learn better as time goes on..... or she'll be proven right when we are proven wrong about Raven and the Children.   Whatever shall be shall be.   But I have no trouble believing she triggered the deaths of 3 kings bearing gifts of disloyalty, that she brought the army to where the world most needed them to be,  and upon squinting I can still see a path to the throne for Stannis every now and then when the sun shines brightly on my face, so she may yet be right on that as well.   If time would be so kind as to show us.   

Her shadows might serve as a middle- man magic when dealing with the Cold ones, like a pidgeon language between creatures of Ice and of Fire so they can exist in the same mindspace with Bran and hash things out.   She could be the echo of a dragon spirit encased in a bipedal vessel and that's why she's got so much going on.  That would make her sacrifice a dragon tempered Nissa heart of sorts, no?    See, believers in the prophecy?   Stick around till the end and I've got you covered!    

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

That would make her sacrifice a dragon tempered Nissa heart of sorts, no?    See, believers in the prophecy?   Stick around till the end and I've got you covered!    

Yes! She also claims to be able to wake dragons from stone or the great dragon according to Davos.  If only she could get her hands on king's blood. 

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

But no, she only saw the deaths of three kings and knows how to take advantage of it.  Same with Orell's eagle.  She didn't burn the bird; the Wall did that.

[kissdbyfire]

27 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

I have faith in her ability to acclimate and find useful heroism by the end. 

I tend to agree, but at the same time I'm totally prepared to be wrong. 

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 With the Mance business, she seems to be finding her way in the dark as if her eyes are adjusting Jon- ward. 

Maybe. But it's taking her an awful long time - and a massive heap of clues - to adjust her eyesight. 

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She's a mutt, magically.   The clear sighted seers are, i believe, your fire- only devotees who don't have any conflicting voices in their head.  Like that rhollr bloke who's gotten in with Victarion.  He sees true, but shallow.  He's a 'traffic-and-weather-together' prophet. 

Agree. And

 

Quote

Whereas Mel dives deeper and carries a more impressive portfolio (only to me, it would seem) as a mixed child of shadow, flame, blood magic, and who knows what else her magic mystery tour includes.  Maybe her nature is conflicted and she's like a rheostat switch that buzzes with power in her head interfering with the radio signal other fire- witches receive more clearly..... but then again maybe they're all not looking as deeply into the fire  (into the situation) as she, the hard news journalist.   

Well, we know she has her own agenda and she is a true believer in Red Rahloo. But I agree w/ you when you say that she "dives deeper". Thing is, zealots tend to be like that. Zealots have a fervour that is quite unique to them. The really interesting question to me is what will she do when she realises she was wrong? And I'm not talking just about 'who is AAR'. 

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The real power within range of her, Raven, pinged on her radar.   She knows him not, so classified him as a hostile, as The hostile, which we see as a mistake...but then we have an unfair advantage don't we.  And she played that vision correctly from a strategic position- - anything that powerful should rightly be feared, and instantly becomes the lead suspect for her Ice nemesis.   

Hmmm. Sorta. Raven definitely pinged on her radar, and she ponders whether this is 'The Great Other'. And sure, we do have an advantage. But then again, she has some dots here that she should be able to connect. Jon Snow, bastard of Winterfell/Stark/direwolf - the sigil of house Stark. Visions of Jon as a man, a wolf and a man again. Then Raven w/ a boy w/ the head of a wolf. And she doesn't see it because of her fervour and zealotry (and b/c it's plot convenient?).  

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She'll either learn better as time goes on..... or she'll be proven right when we are proven wrong about Raven and the Children.   

Really, really don't see that happening. 

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Whatever shall be shall be. 

Que sera, sera...

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But I have no trouble believing she triggered the deaths of 3 kings bearing gifts of disloyalty, that she brought the army to where the world most needed them to be,  and upon squinting I can still see a path to the throne for Stannis every now and then when the sun shines brightly on my face, so she may yet be right on that as well.   If time would be so kind as to show us.  

Here I disagree. IMO she didn't cause those three deaths. She foresaw those deaths, and used the information to manipulate Stannis, to "prove" how powerful she is and he should do everything she tells him to do. 

Not sure what you mean about bringing the army to the right place? Because Stannis' forces aren't enough to make a significant difference... However, I do think Stannis had to go to the Wall, so there's that. But who prompted Stannis to go North was Davos, not Mel.

 

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Her shadows might serve as a middle- man magic when dealing with the Cold ones, like a pidgeon language between creatures of Ice and of Fire so they can exist in the same mindspace with Bran and hash things out.   She could be the echo of a dragon spirit encased in a bipedal vessel and that's why she's got so much going on.  That would make her sacrifice a dragon tempered Nissa heart of sorts, no?    See, believers in the prophecy?   Stick around till the end and I've got you covered!    

Interesting. Her chapter in ADwD was excellent, I hope we get more Mel PoVs. 

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hmmm. Sorta. Raven definitely pinged on her radar, and she ponders whether this is 'The Great Other'. And sure, we do have an advantage. But then again, she has some dots here that she should be able to connect. Jon Snow, bastard of Winterfell/Stark/direwolf - the sigil of house Stark. Visions of Jon as a man, a wolf and a man again. Then Raven w/ a boy w/ the head of a wolf. And she doesn't see it because of her fervour and zealotry (and b/c it's plot convenient?).

Or because she is blocked from seeing who is behind the wolf's head.  Same as Dany who sees the great wolf dancing with the man limned in flame or Robb Stark in the HoU.  Mel can only see the shape that Bran takes but not Bran himself.  Mel also sees another face but discards it because it doesn't fit her assumption that the face of the Great Other is terrifying to behold.  I think she saw Bran-Hodor.  

[Megorova]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think AA was a smith/warrior/sorcerer and the legend of the forging of the sword is the recipe for dragonsteel.

Most likely he was red priest, or even High Priest of R'hllor.

In Davos' chapter, when some guy was telling him story, how original Lightbringer was forged, he said that Azor Ahai was laboring in a temple, making his sword in a sacred flames.

Where in Essos, there's an ancient temple, with a sacred flames? - In Volantis? Asshai? In whatever city it was, it was definitely a R'hllor's temple.

Probably it's not Volantis. If I remember correctly, Volantis was established either by Valyrian dragonlords, or by Valyrian slaves/servants, after fall of Valyria. So it was a few thousands years after first Long Night ended. Thus the sword was probably forged in Asshai.

Another detail is that for how long did AA was forging that sword. 30 days on first try. 50 on second. And 100 on third. 180 days in total. That's 6 months.

Can you imagine, that red priests gave unlimited access, to their sacred flames, to some outsider, that was allowed to make a sword in the temple, and also was there for such a long period of time? So I think that if red priests let him forge his sword there, then he was one of them, and also someone with high status.

And the reason why the legend about AA and his wife NN, and forging of LB, is so detailed, is because when AA did all of that (three times forged a sword; how many days took each try; killed a lion; killed his wife; didn't fought alone; that when he was fighting with some monster, and plunged that sword into the beast's belly, the monster burned from within, with boiling blood, melting eyes, and so on), he himself recorded all of it, in chronicle of R'hllor's temple. That's why Melisandre, after studing in Asshai, knew information about AA. Because she has read, what AA himself wrote, about his deeds during first Long Night.

I really don't see, how it could have happened, how did someone else, aside from AA himself, found out so many details about those events. Because I don't think that AA was killing his wife, in a presense of witnesses. Most likely there was only the two of them there at that time. Would a woman bare her breasts in presense of some other people, that are not her husband? Would a man kill his wife in presense of outsiders, instead of saving his beloved wife's last moments only for himself?

Also I don't think that after killing his wife, AA told about it to someone else, and then that someone else recorded this story. It seems more likely, that AA himself did the recording. And if they are still readable, then they are probably carved on stone, in Asshai's temple of R'hllor.

So there's three possible clues, that point out to Azor Ahai being red priest - two of them are facts (1. location where Lightbringer was forged, is a temple with sacred flames, and 2. AA worked there for 180 days), and one is a speculation (that AA himself recorded on the temple's walls his experiences from Long Night).

So the reason why legend about Azor Ahai is better known, and the legend about the Last Hero is so vague (Old Nan didn't even named him, nor any one of his 12 companions, name of his dog and his sword were also unknown), is because in Westeros the legend about Long Night was passed thru generations by tales, that people told, while events in Essos were recorded by main character (Azor Ahai) himself. And thus the story was detailed, and nearly no information was lost to time, because the records were "rock-solid". 

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

1. She also claims to be able to wake dragons from stone or

2. the great dragon according to Davos. 

Where (in what book) was this 1 & 2?

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Where (in what book) was this 1 & 2?

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"Speak sense to me, woman."

"When the fires speak more plainly, so shall I. There is truth in the flames, but it is not always easy to see." The great ruby at her throat drank fire from the glow of the brazier. "Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon."

A Storm of Swords - Davos V

"There are no gods save R'hllor and the Other, whose name must not be spoken." Melisandre's mouth made a hard red line. "And small men curse what they cannot understand."

"I am a small man," Davos admitted, "so tell me why you need this boy Edric Storm to wake your great stone dragon, my lady." He was determined to say the boy's name as often as he could.

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

Or because she is blocked from seeing who is behind the wolf's head.  Same as Dany who sees the great wolf dancing with the man limned in flame or Robb Stark in the HoU.  Mel can only see the shape that Bran takes but not Bran himself.  Mel also sees another face but discards it because it doesn't fit her assumption that the face of the Great Other is terrifying to behold.  I think she saw Bran-Hodor.  

Could very well be. But this is a separate issue... My problem is that she doesn't connect these dots (and they're ridiculously easy to connect): Jon Snow/Wolf Stark/Wolf boy/Wolf. I mean, she doesn't even think about it, and goes straight for "It's The Great Other".  

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Could very well be. But this is a separate issue... My problem is that she doesn't connect these dots (and they're ridiculously easy to connect): Jon Snow/Wolf Stark/Wolf boy/Wolf. I mean, she doesn't even think about it, and goes straight for "It's The Great Other".  

Yes, she did see the great other and doesn't connect the dots.

[The Mother of The Others]

Ice power has to be Other power, because dualistic pantheon?

Maybe upcoming events with Jon's hot corpse will foist a rethink upon the priestess.  When slapped in the forehead with a coworker's resurrection, maybe her compass reorients from "Fire good, Ice bad!" to something closer to "Ice North, Fire South, Good West, Bad East."    (So that she can see how it's possible for Ice based power to do good, and admit how fire based powers can have an evil effect at times.)

[Lost Melnibonean]

45 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Ice power has to be Other power, because dualistic pantheon?

Maybe upcoming events with Jon's hot corpse will foist a rethink upon the priestess.  When slapped in the forehead with a coworker's resurrection, maybe her compass reorients from "Fire good, Ice bad!" to something closer to "Ice North, Fire South, Good West, Bad East."    (So that she can see how it's possible for Ice based power to do good, and admit how fire based powers can have an evil effect at times.)

Unless he's resurrected by fire... or a burning? Poor Shireen...

[The Mother of The Others]

That feels wrong though because people with birthmarks on their face already have a lot on their plate.    And it lends itself to unfortunate quips like, "well, she may not have been a hottie before, but she is now."    Where's the grass roots effort to have attractive characters get burned?    Is it because we already tried that with Dannie and it didn't work?    So we just gave up on it?   The message , then, that Martin is sending to young impressionable people with that Unburnt fiasco is "Just be attractive!"       I don't like that.   Shireen surely has grayscale plot upcoming, too, surely Shireen does.   Eh.

[Olorin81]

48 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

That feels wrong though because people with birthmarks on their face already have a lot on their plate.    And it lends itself to unfortunate quips like, "well, she may not have been a hottie before, but she is now."    Where's the grass roots effort to have attractive characters get burned?    Is it because we already tried that with Dannie and it didn't work?    So we just gave up on it?   The message , then, that Martin is sending to young impressionable people with that Unburnt fiasco is "Just be attractive!"       I don't like that.   Shireen surely has grayscale plot upcoming, too, surely Shireen does.   Eh.

Perhaps he's saying "Just be attractive" in his world that he created. All context eh? Otherwise be like Brienne of Tarth  or Arya and be able to kill some fools.

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon.

Thank you, I kind of missed before, this part in the book, about stone dragon. Even though I have a theory, that Jon is the stone dragon, from the prophecy of the Undying - "From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies".