Strange Thing About the Twins

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Sure, those are on the western side. Who would be the people travelling from the eastern side to these destinations? Really, you are only talking about overland travellers from the North.

Yes, and of course in the opposite direction. Should be a pretty good income source.

[Free Northman Reborn]

6 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Yes, and of course in the opposite direction. Should be a pretty good income source.

Ok. If one assumes that medieval travellers on 1000 mile overland journeys are a frequent occurrence. I'm not shooting down your suggestion, as it is a valid one. I personally just don't see it. I imagine that 90% of people never leave their home village in their lives, and 99% never leave their home kingdom.

Anyway, maybe that is the answer. My view is that the vast bulk of their toll income is made from Riverlanders, travelling from one "county" to the next.

[Lord Vance II]

The only reasonable way I can think of for the Frey's to be rich off their bridge toll is that it's old money and the Lords Frey have been very frugal men.

The Twins are fairly small and nothing special as far as castles go and doesn't seem to be particularly well-appointed inside. They aren't know for lavish feasts or for being openhanded. I could be wrong, but I don't recall the Freys actually using their supposed vast wealth besides mobilizing troops. Compare that to the Manderlys and White Harbor (whom I agree must be much richer than the Freys), who have clearly shelled out to build a beautiful, well-appointed city and castle. 

Einstein called compound interest the 8th wonder of the world. Maybe the Freys have an account with the Iron Bank or something and make good interest after all this time. 

But if the Freys have "new money", I have no idea how other than because GRRM wanted them to and didn't take the socio-economic sitch of the area into consideration. 

[direpupy]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

In winters past, food could be brought up the kingsroad from the south

That is very clear. You made a point and the text disproves the point you had made. Like a good sport you are instead going to ignore what is said. Very grown up.  

It specifies that it was brought up South via the Kingsroad. 

How are you confused by this statement? What part of that statement makes you think ships and seatravel is the meaning of this? 

This is why I can never take your discussions on the North's population and army sizes seriously as even when the text points something out you will just ignore it or pretend that a sentance has another meaning. 

"BROUGHT UP THE KINGSROAD FROM THE SOUTH"

 

Considering Bowen Marsh was not the Lord Steward or even alive back then why do you think he would need to clarify the route that was taken three centuries ago?

Sorry mate, once again you are grasping at straws because you don't like something the text says about the North. 

Sorry Bernie but i am with Free Northman on this one "Brought up from the south" as a statement by someone at the wall can clearly mean that the food comes from Northern lands like Last Hearth or Winterfell since they to are south of the wall. 

And food coming from those lands to Castle Black where Bowen is when he makes the statement would come up the Kingsroad since there is no river leading all the way to Castle Black.

This by no means makes the Kingsroad the main way by which goods from the lands south of the Neck enter the North, now surely there are goods coming that way, but going via White Harbor and then up the White Knife just makes more sense. It is probably the whole reason White Harbor is the only city in the North.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

34 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

The only reasonable way I can think of for the Frey's to be rich off their bridge toll is that it's old money and the Lords Frey have been very frugal men.

The Twins are fairly small and nothing special as far as castles go and doesn't seem to be particularly well-appointed inside.

Sorry?

And soon the castle grew from a single tower that overlooked the bridge to two formidable towers that bracketed the river between them. These two keeps, now called the Twins, are amongst the strongest in the realm.

[Universal Sword Donor]

48 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Sorry Bernie but i am with Free Northman on this one "Brought up from the south" as a statement by someone at the wall can clearly mean that the food comes from Northern lands like Last Hearth or Winterfell since they to are south of the wall. 

And food coming from those lands to Castle Black where Bowen is when he makes the statement would come up the Kingsroad since there is no river leading all the way to Castle Black.

This by no means makes the Kingsroad the main way by which goods from the lands south of the Neck enter the North, now surely there are goods coming that way, but going via White Harbor and then up the White Knife just makes more sense. It is probably the whole reason White Harbor is the only city in the North.

I just really wanna see him make “FROM THE SOUTH” as large as possible in red font again. Don’t take that away from me guys

[Lord Vance II]

22 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

These two keeps, now called the Twins, are amongst the strongest in the realm.

Maybe "nothing special" was a little much, but strong doesn't mean monstrous or expensive. I stand by them being fairly small and spartan by castle standards. My point is that they haven't poured more money into their seat than any other house. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

Maybe "nothing special" was a little much, but strong doesn't mean monstrous or expensive. I stand by them being fairly small and spartan by castle standards. My point is that they haven't poured more money into their seat than any other house. 

I suspect the "strength" of the fortress relies to a significant extent on the fact that it is on both sides of the river, and can therefore be resupplied from either side. It has been described in some detail that besieging the Twins is very difficult because you would need armies on both sides of the river to starve them out. And even then they can arguably be resupplied from the river I would guess. Meaning you might even need a fleet anchored in the river to block that entry route too.

So it is more the dual nature of the keep that makes it so strong, rather than its pure size and fortifications.

[Universal Sword Donor]

6 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

Maybe "nothing special" was a little much, but strong doesn't mean monstrous or expensive. I stand by them being fairly small and spartan by castle standards. My point is that they haven't poured more money into their seat than any other house. 

Other than WF (because of the curtain walls), the Eryie, CR, the Twins are probably the most expensive castle(s) in Westeros, and CR literally paid for itself. The Twins isn't just one castle; it's two. One would be the size of any other major lord's castle. Then you have the wide bridge that is going to span hundreds of yards across a deep river with a strong current. Then add the Water Tower, which is big enough to hold honored guest quarters. 

Whether or not they poured more actual physical currency into their seat is up for debate. Whether or not they put more resources into it is not. Their projects dwarf anything built in the last 600 years, short of the complete establishment of KL.

[The Commentator]

2 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

The only reasonable way I can think of for the Frey's to be rich off their bridge toll is that it's old money and the Lords Frey have been very frugal men.

The Twins are fairly small and nothing special as far as castles go and doesn't seem to be particularly well-appointed inside. They aren't know for lavish feasts or for being openhanded. I could be wrong, but I don't recall the Freys actually using their supposed vast wealth besides mobilizing troops. Compare that to the Manderlys and White Harbor (whom I agree must be much richer than the Freys), who have clearly shelled out to build a beautiful, well-appointed city and castle. 

Einstein called compound interest the 8th wonder of the world. Maybe the Freys have an account with the Iron Bank or something and make good interest after all this time. 

But if the Freys have "new money", I have no idea how other than because GRRM wanted them to and didn't take the socio-economic sitch of the area into consideration. 

The Freys built a bridge that people have to pay to use.  The bridge is in a strategically important area of commerce.  Going around the bridge is not easy and the lack of modern methods to preserve food means time is important because many trade goods are perishable.  So yeah, ofcourse the bridge is a gold mine.  House Frey is one of the richest families in Westeros because of the bridge, their fertile lands, and good business skills from Lord Walder.  

[The Commentator]

33 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Other than WF (because of the curtain walls), the Eryie, CR, the Twins are probably the most expensive castle(s) in Westeros, and CR literally paid for itself. The Twins isn't just one castle; it's two. One would be the size of any other major lord's castle. Then you have the wide bridge that is going to span hundreds of yards across a deep river with a strong current. Then add the Water Tower, which is big enough to hold honored guest quarters. 

Whether or not they poured more actual physical currency into their seat is up for debate. Whether or not they put more resources into it is not. Their projects dwarf anything built in the last 600 years, short of the complete establishment of KL.

Listen, USD, most expensive to build (which means most difficult) does not equal most valuable.  I am referring specifically to a comparison between The Twins and Winterfell.  Yes, because of its difficult terrain, Winterfell may have been more costly to build.  But The Twins sit on more valuable real estate.  If I had to take a gamble, I would bet on The Twins having vastly more economic value than Winterfell, and the comparison will not even be close.  The Twins is worth much more than Winterfell.

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Listen, USD, most expensive to build (which means most difficult) does not equal most valuable.  I am referring specifically to a comparison between The Twins and Winterfell.  Yes, because of its difficult terrain, Winterfell may have been more costly to build.  But The Twins sit on more valuable real estate.  If I had to take a gamble, I would bet on The Twins having vastly more economic value than Winterfell, and the comparison will not even be close.  The Twins is worth much more than Winterfell.

I would check whom you are responding to, as this is highly irrelevant to my point and I hadn't even seen you in the thread when I posted that.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I just really wanna see him make “FROM THE SOUTH” as large as possible in red font again. Don’t take that away from me guys

Happy to Oblige

“FROM THE SOUTH”

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Sorry Bernie but i am with Free Northman on this one "Brought up from the south" as a statement by someone at the wall can clearly mean that the food comes from Northern lands like Last Hearth or Winterfell since they to are south of the wall. 

The full quote is in my first response to Free Northman in this thread

"We should butcher all but a few breeding pairs. It's past time. In winters past, food could be brought up the kingsroad from the south, but with the war ...

Do you really think that implies the food was coming from the Last Heath or Winterfell? That Bowen would refer to those places as the South?

1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

Maybe "nothing special" was a little much, but strong doesn't mean monstrous or expensive. I stand by them being fairly small and spartan by castle standards. My point is that they haven't poured more money into their seat than any other house. 

The Twins has a garrison of 400 (and an extra 400 for much of the war) while Riverrun had 200, Theon thought 200 was enough for Winterfell, the Gates of the Moon 300, Stannis had left 200 to garrison Storm's End. 

As for other castles, we hear of how Harrenhal has never been repaired, how Winterfell has a broken tower for more than a century while Cat looks at how vulnerable and rusty the gate and portcullis of  Riverrun as they have long needed replacing. We also have the house that Robb choose to marry instead of them and their castle that was "more ruin than castle". The Glovers still live in a vulnerable wooden fort.  The Twins are a lot healthier than these castles by comparison

And to repeat the quote you have already been given

"But as their wealth and influence grew, so did the Crossing. And soon the castle grew from a single tower that overlooked the bridge to two formidable towers that bracketed the river between them." 

 

Would imply that this new House has poured more money recently into their House (and their connecting bridge) than most if not all the other Castles I have mentioned. 

 

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Do keep in mind that they didn't have diesel engines back then.  Most goods are transported through carts and wagons.  In other words, they have to take the path of least resistance.  Strong river currents make transportation by barge risky.  It's much easier to cross over the bridge.  Exorbitant toll is a matter of opinion.  Evidently, the people crossing think its exorbitant but they still pay it anyway and just mark up their prices.  It's just the cost of business.  The Freys are not "one of the top bannermen to Riverrun."  They are the top bannermen to Riverrun and they are probably richer than the Tullys.

 

OK, but if traders are plying the Kingsroad, where we are told there are plenty of towns, villages, keeps, holdfasts and castles to do a brisk business, why would they then want to leave this main road to follow any number of secondary roads to get to the twins, pay a toll, just to get to what? Seaguard is the only place worthy of note, but is that really enough to make the Frey's so vastly wealthy? And if you wanted to tap this little corner of the riverlands, wouldn't it make more sense to bring goods into Seaguard and then you can trade to your hearts content up and down both sides of the Blue Fork, the northern sides of the Red Fork and the Tumblestone, all the way to the Banefort, the Crag and even Ashmark? There just doesn't seem to be a very compelling reason to leave the Kingsroad at all, let alone pay a toll.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I have raised this issue at length before. The Freys supposesly got rich from charging regular merchants and traders tolls for crossing the river. But as you pointed out above, their bridge does not really connect a lot of busy trading destinations. 

Basically it connects Northern traffic with the Riverlands. That's it. But consider that any such traffic would have to pass through Moat Cailin too, then Moat Cailin should be an equally rich customs or toll generator. And yet we see that it is nothing of the sort.

In fact, Moat Cailin should be busier than the Twins, because on top of North-Riverlands travellers, it would also carry North-Vale and North-Crownlands travellers.

Frankly, the Twins only real value is to connect the bulk of the Riverlands to the remote Northeastern corner of the Riverlands, up along the Kingsroad below the Neck. An area that we don't even know is ruled by any major lords that I can recall.

So the Freys would not be even remotely close to Lord Manderly's wealth level, for example, going by volume of trade through their respective domains.

Lol, sorry. When I was writing this, I thought I should search the board to see if it had been mentioned before. But at this point, it's virtually impossible to come up with a truly original idea.

[Universal Sword Donor]

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Happy to Oblige

“FROM THE SOUTH”

The full quote is in my first response to Free Northman in this thread

"We should butcher all but a few breeding pairs. It's past time. In winters past, food could be brought up the kingsroad from the south, but with the war ...

Do you really think that implies the food was coming from the Last Heath or Winterfell? That Bowen would refer to those places as the South?

Yes because it's not capitalized and they are roughly 10x closer. In addition to being easier to source food from a few hundred miles than a few thousand miles, it's also easier to source food from powerful people who you have existing relationships with. Greatjon had a cousin taken by the wildlings and Ned's brother is the head ranger (in addition to wanting to repopulate the gift). Both WF and Last Hearth are either on or adjacent to the Kingsroad south of the wall. WF is even conveniently along a tributary of the White Knife so that food can easily come up north from the commerce hub of the North, WH. 

Another thing about that quote that is being ignored is the context of the situation in the north. It's easy to assume that by "the war", Marsh is referring to MC being blocked and lack of food being able to be purchased because of the wide scale harrying and burning. It completely overlooks the nearby Umbers being down to old men and young boys and Alys Karstark lamenting the same issue IN CASTLE BLACK, resulting in lots of the harvest for Karhold rotting in the field. The war affected the North and lack of harvesting of the nearest, easiest to acquire food is something noteworthy.

[Bernie Mac]

12 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes because it's not capitalized and they are roughly 10x closer.

eh? Come on, you are grasping at straws now. 

"It gave him an uneasy feeling. Braavosi coin would allow the Night's Watch to buy food from the south when their own stores ran short, food enough to see them through the winter, however long it might prove to be."

Which south do you think Jon is talking about in this quote from ADWD? The North with Winterfell recently destroyed, Hornwood ravaged, the Botons enemies of Robb or the actual South such as the Reach or Vale with their excess of food. 

And can you find any other references of Brothers of the Nights Watch referring to the North as the south? https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=south&povs[]=Samwell&povs[]=Jon

 

12 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

In addition to being easier to source food from a few hundred miles than a few thousand miles, it's also easier to source food from powerful people who you have existing relationships with.

It is also easier to source food from people who have a surplus of food. 

And who claims the Watch does not have existing relationships with the Lords in the South?

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? Come on, you are grasping at straws now. 

"It gave him an uneasy feeling. Braavosi coin would allow the Night's Watch to buy food from the south when their own stores ran short, food enough to see them through the winter, however long it might prove to be."

Which south do you think Jon is talking about in this quote from ADWD? The North with Winterfell recently destroyed, Hornwood ravaged, the Botons enemies of Robb or the actual South such as the Reach or Vale with their excess of food. 

And can you find any other references of Brothers of the Nights Watch referring to the North as the south? https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=south&povs[]=Samwell&povs[]=Jon

Grasping at straws or grasping the easier, simpler conclusion? Those are also two separate people and the statements are not mutually exclusive or inclusive.

9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is also easier to source food from people who have a surplus of food. 

And who claims the Watch does not have existing relationships with the Lords in the South?

I suppose Lord Redwyne and Lord Frey have a pretty sweet connection with rapists and murderers in the nights watch. But realistically, look at the leadership of the Night's watch. We see Jeor and Benjen as primary leaders of the NW. The NW helps defend the mountain clans and Umbers from the wildlings. Eddard had a plan he wanted to present to the NW to repopulate the Gift. There is actual, tangible relations between the North and the NW, not so much with the southern regions. The best connection we have from other regions is probably going to be Sam or Denys Mallister, and we don't see Jason being contacted for food or men when the wildings attack.

Aemon wrote to all five kings to get men, primarily to the Northern houses. Now Stannis is the one who responds, but this entire debate was predicated on (massive amounts of) food coming up the kingsroad. Stannis takes his relatively small army north by .... ship because it's both the quickest and most efficient way to move that much manpower and its related supplies. 

So yes when Bowen Marsh deliberately mentions "south up the kingsroad" and " the war" it's pretty apparent that he means the local stores from WF, which were burnt along with the castle, and the lands of Karhold and Last Hearth which have a dearth of men to swing the scythes, as it were. Jon mentioning from the south is probably the Vale, since he knows the Vale hasn't entered the war, is famously fertile, and he just got done talking with men who arrived by sea.

[Dorian Martell's son]

19 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So how do the Twins generate such a vast income for the Freys that they become one of the top bannermen to Riverrun?

They are the only reliable crossing for many leagues in each direction. That is how. Nothing more, nothing less 

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Maybe. But Seaguard is the only larger harbor in the region and the last reachable harbor for going north. Good luck reaching Flint's Finger.

 

And it's the same the other way round. Seaguard is the first western harbor coming from the North. 

True, but Seaguard is dicey. The ironmen haven't been doing much reaving (until now), but that doesn't mean a bunch of them can't get all liquored up on any given night and take down a trading vessel out at sea. I'll bet that's why the wealth on the western side of the continent pretty much stops at Lannisport -- it's too risky moving a serious amount of goods any father north, and the populated areas are so sparse that it would probably be cost-prohibitive anyway. Otherwise, there would be a seaport in Saltspear or Blazewater Bay, no?

And if the north really wanted to move goods to and from Seaguard, it would be a simple matter to build a bridge over the Fever River and cut through the forest to the west of the bogs. This is a lot shorter than going all the way east to the Kingsroad, following it south all the way to the Twins (instead of just heading east a few more clicks east to White Harbor), pay the toll and then cutting back west to Seaguard.