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Angel Eyes

How is Littlefinger able to broker a marriage between Harry Hardyng and Alayne Stone?

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A bastard girl marrying the heir to the Vale is a rather mismatched match. 

Or is Littlefinger trying to prove a point by

Spoiler

pulling Sansa Stark out of a hat by having her pretend she's a bastard?

Thoughts?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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8 minutes ago, Lady bonehead said:

This setup also seems iffy to me.  Does someone involved (other than Littlefinger) know who Sansa is?  Otherwise I'm not sure it makes sense.

The main person that is aware is Lothor Brune. Brune accompanied Littlefinger when he picked up Sansa after the Purple Wedding and gave the order to kill Dontos Hollard, and kept Marillion away from Sansa.

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The bastard daughter of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and Lord Protector of the Vale can be legitimized and all of LF's lands can go to her, and thus to whoever marries her. Without legitimiazation, LF can still offer an obscene amount of money for her dowry. So even if young Robert Arryn becomes Lord of the Vale and has his own heris, and "Alayne" is never legitimized, Harry would still be set for life. So many nobles are cash poor that the money might be all the motivation young Hardyng needs.

 

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

A bastard girl marrying the heir to the Vale is a rather mismatched match. 

Or is Littlefinger trying to prove a point by

  Hide contents

pulling Sansa Stark out of a hat by having her pretend she's a bastard?

Thoughts?

Harry is only important until Robert Arryn marries and has heirs of his own, after that he is just a son of a landed knight and his marriage becomes worthless. Lady Waynwood is cashing in while he is still her Ward and while his marriage is still valuable. 

". . . bastard? For a start, you are the Lord Protector's bastard, never forget. The Waynwoods are very old and very proud, but not as rich as one might think, as I discovered when I began buying up their debt. Not that Lady Anya would ever sell a son for gold. A ward, however . . . young Harry's only a cousin, and the dower that I offered her ladyship was even larger than the one that Lyonel Corbray just collected. It had to be, for her to risk Bronze Yohn's wroth."

The rest of the Vale are not going to be aware of how sick Robin is, or that Littlefinger plans on ridding himself of him. 

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

The main person that is aware is Lothor Brune. Brune accompanied Littlefinger when he picked up Sansa after the Purple Wedding and gave the order to kill Dontos Hollard, and kept Marillion away from Sansa.

"Alayne Stone" is a pretty thin disguise.  It is pretty clear that Myranda Royce (and probably her father) know who she really is.  I wouldn't be surprised if Lady Waynwood has suspicions about Alayne's true identity.  In any case, the dowry makes it a decent match.

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11 hours ago, Nevets said:

"Alayne Stone" is a pretty thin disguise.  It is pretty clear that Myranda Royce (and probably her father) know who she really is.  I wouldn't be surprised if Lady Waynwood has suspicions about Alayne's true identity.  In any case, the dowry makes it a decent match.

I agree. Sansa's story is one of the ones I'm really looking forward to getting back to. It felt like we were left hanging with so many unanswered questions and plots waiting to come to fruition.

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17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Thoughts?

 

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The bastard daughter of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and Lord Protector of the Vale can be legitimized and all of LF's lands can go to her, and thus to whoever marries her. Without legitimization, LF can still offer an obscene amount of money for her dowry. So even if young Robert Arryn becomes Lord of the Vale and has his own heris, and "Alayne" is never legitimized, Harry would still be set for life. So many nobles are cash poor that the money might be all the motivation young Hardyng needs.

This. IRL, most lords ended up spending and gambling away their gold and ended up quite cash poor after several generations. Wars like the crusades, eastern, southern and northern were funded by loans and were lead by second and third sons with little or no hope of inheriting the family holdings. In the Story, many ancient and proud houses are poor, which is why Ser Waymar was sent to the wall, and why someone like Harry, who is heir to an entire kingdom, would accept a marriage proposal to a bastard girl. 

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The theory is that it's such a horrible marriage on the face of things that everyone, with of the exception of seemingly Harry himself, knows Alayne is actually Sansa. The heir to the Vale, the maybe future Lord Arryn, wouldn't marry some bastard girl, no matter how much money Lady Waynwood owes.

Edited by The Broke Howard Hughes

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Well, I think yes the money would be an interesting temptation and yes, she could eventually be legitimised (if she were who they say she is) so at face value it doesn't seem a totally crazy idea and LF explains it to Sansa and us the readers relatively well.  To me what gives the game away is Harry's reaction to Alayne in their first encounter though.  I thought that was well over the top to be honest.  I know he is yet to commit himself to the betrothal but still.  He is clearly playing a "hard to get" game with her.  The way I viewed that scene the first time I read it is similar to the expression "the lady (the knight in this case) protests too much."  Again, at face value it appears that he is just snobbish and a bit of a dick but I reckon there is more to it than that.  It is possible that LF had told Lady Anya, or at least dropped hints as to Alayne's true identity and that he is trying to cover the fact that he knows the truth, and doing so relatively publicly.  After all, at the end of the day LF plans to reveal her true identity when it is safe to do so (i.e. when the Tyrells and Lannisters are no longer in power).  I know he says he will reveal her at her wedding but, logistically, if the wedding were to take place soon that would be way too risky.  Also this marriage is only valuable to LF if Robin dies but again if Cersei is in charge she will have Sansa's head (or try to).  Also Olenna is using her and Tyrion as scapegoats so it wouldn't suit them to let her get on with her life either.  For the time of the reveal to be right, time must pass.  Of course the perfect way to ensure that the obstacles are remove is to wait for things to run their course in KL and with Robin and hey, if Harry gets wings (and we know he is the competitive type and will enter the tourney) that gives LF 3 years and I am sure that that is what is most likely to happen.  Also it allows time for Tyrion to get himself killed or so LF hopes, although it is also possible for her to obtain an annulment (even without his consent) but I don't think Tyrion would object any way.  Still, those necessary circumstances for her identity reveal don't prove in any way that Anya and Harry know the truth and, on first impression, telling them does not seem advantageous to LF.  However, since it is possible that some of the Lords of the Vale may guess... it is better that the truth comes from him sooner rather than later or they would feel manipulated.  Also, of course LF has been given one year in which to prove himself and offering the rightful heir (as far as he knows) to WF could be his trump card.  So, all things consider my wager is that they know who she is, but of course I could well be wrong.

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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1 hour ago, The Broke Howard Hughes said:

The theory is that it's such a horrible marriage on the face of things that everyone, with of the exception of seemingly Harry himself, knows Alayne is actually Sansa. The heir to the Vale, the maybe future Lord Arryn, wouldn't marry some bastard girl, no matter how much money Lady Waynwood owes.

The problem with Harry is that he is only heir to the Vale until Robert gets married and has children and at that point he becomes just a landed knight with no power and no money so marrying the bastard daughter of the very rich Lord Protector of the Vale and Lord Paramount of the Riverlands with all the lands and incomes that come with that would be a pretty fantastic match for him . 

 

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1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

The problem with Harry is that he is only heir to the Vale until Robert gets married and has children and at that point he becomes just a landed knight with no power and no money so marrying the bastard daughter of the very rich Lord Protector of the Vale and Lord Paramount of the Riverlands with all the lands and incomes that come with that would be a pretty fantastic match for him . 

 

This is very true but does anyone in the Vale actually expects Robin to survive long enough to have issue?  It may well turn out that he does in fact but I think most people don't expect that, although yes even as a plan B marrying Alayne could actually be advantageous to him.  Still I don't reckon this is where this is going.  Sansa seems to central a character to end up in a political marriage that isn't that advantageous to her neither in terms of territories nor is it for love hence I don't think this marriage will come to pass.  A relatively long betrothal though would allow time for the plot to unfold in other directions though.

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1 hour ago, Morgana Lannister said:

This is very true but does anyone in the Vale actually expects Robin to survive long enough to have issue?  It may well turn out that he does in fact but I think most people don't expect that, although yes even as a plan B marrying Alayne could actually be advantageous to him.  Still I don't reckon this is where this is going.  Sansa seems to central a character to end up in a political marriage that isn't that advantageous to her neither in terms of territories nor is it for love hence I don't think this marriage will come to pass.  A relatively long betrothal though would allow time for the plot to unfold in other directions though.

I agree, I think it's pretty well expected that Robert Arryn isn't going to live very long.

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7 hours ago, The Broke Howard Hughes said:

The theory is that it's such a horrible marriage on the face of things that everyone, with of the exception of seemingly Harry himself, knows Alayne is actually Sansa. The heir to the Vale, the maybe future Lord Arryn, wouldn't marry some bastard girl, no matter how much money Lady Waynwood owes.

Yeah but right now he's a landed knight (whose lands would be held as regent by Anya Waynwood I'm guessing) with not much else to his name. He's far enough away as a relative that he's not even guaranteed to be the heir since SR hates him. 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents

As book readers, we "know" that Harrold is the chosen heir but we know there are other Arryns in the vale and possibly even other claimants who might go a step above Jon Arryn to his father.

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On 3/7/2018 at 7:53 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yeah but right now he's a landed knight (whose lands would be held as regent by Anya Waynwood I'm guessing) with not much else to his name. He's far enough away as a relative that he's not even guaranteed to be the heir since SR hates him. 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents

As book readers, we "know" that Harrold is the chosen heir but we know there are other Arryns in the vale and possibly even other claimants who might go a step above Jon Arryn to his father.

But there is Littlefinger....

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On 3/5/2018 at 9:41 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The bastard daughter of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and Lord Protector of the Vale can be legitimized and all of LF's lands can go to her, and thus to whoever marries her. Without legitimiazation, LF can still offer an obscene amount of money for her dowry. So even if young Robert Arryn becomes Lord of the Vale and has his own heris, and "Alayne" is never legitimized, Harry would still be set for life. So many nobles are cash poor that the money might be all the motivation young Hardyng needs.

 

Only the ruling monarch can legitimize a bastard.  So this is not happening unless LF can find a way to boot Cersei and the Lannisters from power.  Aside from that, I agree with the persuasive power of cash over a proud but cash poor house.

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It could happen.  If a girl is rich enough, she can marry anybody.  In the Gilded Age many rich American girls were able to marry into English nobility because the men had the titles and the girls had the money. 

Now, would the scheme to marry Sansa to Harry succeed, i hope not.  For some reason i want Robert to survive.  i want Sansa to defeat Littlefinger and for Robert to not be under his influence any longer.  Hopefully with time and loyal Vale lords to help him, Robert can actually be a good ruler. 

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On 3/5/2018 at 6:17 PM, Angel Eyes said:

A bastard girl marrying the heir to the Vale is a rather mismatched match. 

Or is Littlefinger trying to prove a point by

  Reveal hidden contents

pulling Sansa Stark out of a hat by having her pretend she's a bastard?

Thoughts?

Anya Waynwood made sure to include that Harry can refuse the marriage if he wants to. Read the Alayne Sample Chapter in TWOW. 

SPOILER ALERT 

 

 

 

 

 

its seems like the Waynwoods have already swayed Harry against marrying Alayne. 

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Littlefinger is a pimp and does not really care about anyone besides himself. He is using Sansa just like he is using everybody else.

Spoiler

From Alayne’s Winds of Winter sample, Littlefinger is encouraging Sansa to encharm Harry knowing too well that the boy has fathered bastards and very prideful. The way he looks down on Alayne and her bastard status tells me, even if he is infatuated with her, he will not take no for an answer and might force himself upon Sansa.

I think Littlefinger’s goal is to have Harry rape Sansa during this upcoming tournament so he will become an insulted party and have extra leverage over the Waynwoods to “hand Harry over” to him (make him a Winged Knight possibly, an unofficial hostage in the Gates of the Moon) or make the Waynwoods to marry Harry to Alayne considering he has also bought off their debts and can apply his power through that prism.

With Harry the Heir in his custody and away from the Waynwoods, countless possibilities open up. This way Littlefinger will solidify his position as Lord Protector of the Vale and control future succession of House Arryn without any interruption from the Waynwoods or Yohn Bronze Royce. Remember, Littlefinger’s only true opponent in the Vale is Lord Yohn Royce, and Harry squired for him and probably received some information about Baelish and his bastard daughter.

I think Littlefinger will dispose Harry as quickly as possible once he has served his role. His ultimate goal in the Vale is to get in control of its untouched army (the reason why Lysa did not enter War of Five Kings is because Baelish probably told her so due to “fear for Sweetrobin’s life”, but I bet he knew he would need this army later on to further his own goals and position in Westeros). If Harry becomes the Lord of the Eyrie, his plans will crumble, so I believe the boy is in his way.

 

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LF going to have sweet robin killed most likely at the hand if lyn cobray. Sansa will then marry harry and then will reveal herself as Sansa Stark of Winterfell. All the while LF will be plotting to ways to off Harry and keep her for himself. She may come to the realization that LF needs to be offed but she's a dumb wench and will continue to be manipulated by him. Only until she loses her maiden head will she actually realize what needs to be done but by then it may be to late. LF has enormous wealth and steadily has increased his power and influence throughout the series. 

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