Interstellar Weirwood Conspiracy

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

On 3/11/2018 at 3:31 PM, hiemal said:

I like your thinking so far. I'm looking forward to reading more.

You should have linked to your theory, I just accidentally dug it up from the archives, and we are pretty much hitting the same points.  And I also found a few others that are circling the same ideas, we should get a Grand Theory going.

 

 

[hiemal]

10 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

You should have linked to your theory, I just accidentally dug it up from the archives, and we are pretty much hitting the same points.  And I also found a few others that are circling the same ideas, we should get a Grand Theory going.

 

 

Sounds great!

[The Mother of The Others]

 Firing trees into space as weapons with a volcanic gas pressure buildup is good stuff.  It deserves its own movie.   The idea inspired a moment of clarity in me.  That's when I saw an image of the planet firing trees up into the stratusphere not to attack the spaceship but to impregnate it. 

The trees are phallic, and the weir had wood that day- - for Life wants off of this rock, to expand its horizons and perpetuate the COSMIC life cycle.  The starship is ovarian shaped we know because if it was male it would have cast a more erectile, shaft-like shadow on the lands during the long night, but what they observed was an amorphous shadow, or a "curtain of darkness."   Sexing the aliens was inevitable.  Their space pheremones were irresistable to Planetos.   After the inter-humping of egg ship and sperm trees,  the spaceship shrunk down to the size of an avocado pit and stole all surrounding mass and shadow from our universe as nutrients for its dark matter baby who grew in negative space.  Thus the long night ended.

 The baby born of this union was Dark Star.   This at last explains why he's the most dangerous man in Dorne.  And we now have a justification for why so many pollen trees smell like sperm in the neighborhood this time of year.   Because they're prepping for launch.   Gearing up to save us all by not going gently into that good Night.   Life aims its flowers always at the sun,  so when counterfeit moons in estrus perform the mating dance of blocking out the sun they won't have to wait long before the world responds by firing off prodigious pollenators to prod the pervy planetoids out of synchronous orbit.  Yin and Yang.   

The Children are the parents.  The Night King's purpose is revealed as well----to agitate the trees, stimulating them until they can't take it any more and explode into deep, inviting Space.   Samwell Tarly's role is to clean up afterwards.   

Thanks to everyone whose contributions helped me reach enlightenment.   The work of many people besides myself went in to the solving of ASOIAF.   Ancient astronaut theorists are trapped at this point into admitting this version of events not only happened but on top of that it's also possible.   I think the real answer is somewhere inbetween.  Does the planet yearn to get it on with the moon?  Hell yes.  Did it succeed?   Again, yeah.  Because that moon popped open with a litter of dragons.   So planetos is on the record as being a randy widower.    Truly, [for real] space launching of spores is the next step in Life ensuring its survival.  Trees want to poke the sky.  Giving them propulsion was the missing piece of the puzzle.    Happy St. Patricks and lets send a copy of this to George.

[Weirwood Ghost]

Thanks for sharing BoB.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Okay, so if many of the events that take place in Westeros are a mythological retelling of real events that happened thousands of years ago in Essos.

Tywin plays the role of the God-on-Earth, during his reign the Weirwoods might not have been doing anything evil, the Weirwoods trusted him, and thought he was a great guy.  But then Tywin ordered the murder of Elia, he killed part of the network totally unprovoked (actually had the Mountain laser the trees from space).  The network became totally furious because of this and is out for total revenge--destroyed the Great Empire and has a vendetta against its descendants.  They got Tywin's own son to kill him, Tyrion does have some Bloodstone Emperor imagery (his eyes). 

But the Weirwood's boosted the Bloodstone Emperor's power level out of desperation and they have been regretting it ever since, he has been a real danger, he almost took control of the network, and they barely beat him the last time.  This time, in their weakened condition, I don't think they can beat him (Euron) on their own.

 

Mother of Others, I know you are being facetious again, but I do think the Weirwoods would like to get control of that spaceship if they could. 

[Unacosamedarisa]

21 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Mother of Others, I know you are being facetious again

Are you not? Is this not one of them joke theory threads? If I've got it right, you claim the Martells are sentient trees and the Mountain is a spaceship? And the Weirwoods are 5th dimensional space fungus'? What's the 5th dimension? 

I see no evidence that the story is taking place in a post-apocalytpic earth, that our POVs and what we're told is so wrong that dragons are actually space ships, and that GRRM has written a series that requires 100s of hours of analysis and extensive knowledge of multiple mythos' and the eschatology of every known religion to, not only be fully understood, but to be grasped in the slightest... the books are complex, and there is mystery to them, but we're not being told something is a hat when in actuality it's a star being sucked into a blackhole. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

2 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Are you not? Is this not one of them joke theory threads?  If I've got it right, you claim the Martells are sentient trees and the Mountain is a spaceship? And the Weirwoods are 5th dimensional space fungus'? What's the 5th dimension? 

I see no evidence that the story is taking place in a post-apocalytpic earth, that our POVs and what we're told is so wrong that dragons are actually space ships, and that GRRM has written a series that requires 100s of hours of analysis and extensive knowledge of multiple mythos' and the eschatology of every known religion to, not only be fully understood, but to be grasped in the slightest... the books are complex, and there is mystery to them, but we're not being told something is a hat when in actuality it's a star being sucked into a blackhole. 

It is post-apocalyptic in the sense that the wrath of god caused civilizations to collapse, the Great Empire, the Valyrians, the Long Night in Westeros, whatever happened in Yeen.  It is well-established canon.

Imagine that you are a life-long sci-fi author, who is pretty eccentric.  For your last project--your magnus opus--you want to create a work of literature that will blow peoples' minds and be written about and analyzed until the end of literature on Earth.  You want to blow Tolkien's work completely out of the water.  You have no limit on length or subject matter, only your imagination.  What would you write? 

But as I said before it is literally two stories in one, you don't need to know the mythology stuff to read the surface level story.

With regard to dragons being ships:

Quote

This was far from the greatest folly of Aegon IV's stillborn invasion of Dorne, however, for His Grace had also turned to the dubious pyromancers of the ancient Guild of Alchemists, commanding them to "build me dragons." These wood-and-iron monstrosities, fitted with pumps that shot jets of wildfire, might perhaps have been of some use in a siege. But Aegon proposed to drag these devices up and through the Boneway, where there are places so steep that the Dornishmen have carved steps.

This sounds an awful lot like a cargo cult type situation.  During WWII we built landing strips on islands around Papua New Guinea, the natives had no idea what airplanes were, or what was going on in the wider world.  We gave them free stuff, and when the war was over no more planes came bringing free stuff.  The natives then built fake airplanes and fake tower control, and reenacted planes landing in order to try to bring back the planes and their goods.  

Aegon IV tried to build a wooden dragon on wheels that spit wildfire, an imitation of a real spaceship that shot lasers and the wildfire is probably a liquid fuel source that the alchemists just found sitting in drums somewhere.

 

 

[Unacosamedarisa]

16 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Aegon IV tried to build a wooden dragon on wheels that spit wildfire, an imitation of a real spaceship that shot lasers and the wildfire is probably a liquid fuel source that the alchemists just found sitting in drums somewhere.

Or, you know, in imitation of Dragons. Dragons we've been told existed in Westeros. Dragons we've been shown exist in the world of the books. Dragons we've been shown existing on the page, through multiple character's POVs. You can twist it to make it like a cargo-cult situation, but you have to make all of those extraneous, unnecessary assumptions about inter-dimensional mushrooms and spaceships. So far I've seen no reason to do so... no reason to look beyond the "surface story", as you put it (I call it the story), that GRRM has written, to this alternate story which I struggle to imagine GRRM is actually writing. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

2 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 So far I've seen no reason to do so... no reason to look beyond the "surface story", as you put it (I call it the story), that GRRM has written, to this alternate story which I struggle to imagine GRRM is actually writing. 

If you haven't yet, you need to listen to or read LML's essays, he has pretty conclusively proven that there is a story within the story.  I just have a different idea than him about what that story is.

 

Quote

Or, you know, in imitation of Dragons. Dragons we've been told existed in Westeros.

Why are dragons and the Stranger both described as neither male or female?  In what way are they related?  All of the planets are either male or female, except the Stranger, who is not a planet, but is a spaceship--that is why it has no gender because it is a machine.  Same logic applies to dragons.

 

What is wildfire, and how is it a "close cousin to dragonflame"

Quote

The wildfire oozed slowly toward the lip of the jar when Tyrion tilted it to peer inside. The color would be a murky green, he knew, but the poor light made that impossible to confirm. "Thick," he observed.

"That is from the cold, my lord," said Hallyne, a pallid man with soft damp hands and an obsequious manner. He was dressed in striped black-and-scarlet robes trimmed with sable, but the fur looked more than a little patchy and moth-eaten. "As it warms, the substance will flow more easily, like lamp oil."

Why is wildfire is deliberately described as having very characteristics to lamp oil or something like diesel fuel that thickens when cold, and also very similar to nitroglycerin, in that shock causes it to explode.  Wildfire described in this way sounds entirely un-magical to us modern people, but the people in the story think it is highly magical, because they do not know what it is.  This entirely un-magical wildfire is a close cousin of dragonflame.

And Maegor "drank a cup of wildfire in the belief that it would allow him to transform himself into a dragon." 

Yes, you could excuse his behavior by saying he was just insane, and had no idea what he was doing.  But it ties a link between wildfire and  dragons.  Why would he think they were connected in any way?  Was it because "dragons" actually did "drink wildfire" in that it was the liquid fuel that got poured into the "dragon" gas tanks?

And why are they described as the "dubious pyromancers of the ancient Guild of Alchemists"

Quote

They called each other wisdom as well, which Tyrion found almost as annoying as their custom of hinting at the vast secret stores of knowledge that they wanted him to think they possessed. Once theirs had been a powerful guild, but in recent centuries the maesters of the Citadel had supplanted the alchemists almost everywhere. Now only a few of the older order remained, and they no longer even pretended to transmute metals

and

With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

Is it because they are charlatans?  Con-men who found wildfire in drums in storage left over from the Great Empire, and have built their livelihoods around faking their alchemy to produce this magical substance?

[Unacosamedarisa]

8 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

If you haven't yet, you need to listen to or read LML's essays, he has pretty conclusively proven

No, they have not. It is not "conclusively proven" that there is a secondary, science fiction story going on behind what GRRM has actually published. 

Also, the idea that Magic in ASoIaF is just Technology mistaken for Magic goes against GRRM's stated approach to Magic in his fantasy work... 

Quote

 

Do you have rules worked out for magic?

Whole book is to his discretion as to how it works. He doesn't have a magic system specifically. Some authors do but too like D&D for him. He went back to Tolkien when he got into the book seriously. Thinks Tolkien is still the master. What you discover when you read Tolkien with eye to magic is there is very little magic. Gandalf is wizard - wise but he doesn't whisper a spell and slaughter an entire army. He thinks fantasy needs magic as a seasoning. Too much seasoning and you can overwelm the dish. Too much magic can ruin a fantasy. Magic has to be magic - something that violates law of nature. "Unknown" - published between the two World Wars writen by Campbell - a real rationalist with a particular brand of fantasy. Campbell treated magic as science. GRR enjoyed reading them but that approach to magic and the aproach in role playing games is...just science, not magic. Magic has to be more mysterious than that. He wants less Campbell and more Lovecraft. It has to be dark stuff we can't fully comprehend. Use it sparingly so it has impact.

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/4555 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

No, they have not. It is not "conclusively proven" that there is a secondary, science fiction story going on behind what GRRM has actually published. 

LML is not sci-fi at all, he is mythical astronomy.  It sounds like you haven't read any of his stuff but are pretending you have.

[Unacosamedarisa]

1 minute ago, By Odin's Beard said:

LML is not sci-fi at all, he is mythical astronomy. 

I read a lot of it many years ago. My apologies if I forgot the particular flavour of their theory. I wasn't convinced then that there was this whole underlying narrative being told, and I'm not convinced now. Though I did appreciate their attempt to connect mythological happenings to astronomical ones... though I see it more of a symbolic connection... The Star "kissed" the Moon (or whatever) and Dragons were born, connected to Drogo and Daenerys calling each other "my sun and stars" and "moon of my life", and from their relationship (and its tragic end) Dragons were reborn. But, it's a symbolic connection... I don't think that Drogo was actually a luminous sphere of hot plasma being held together by his own gravity. 

There is no "conclusive proof" that something radically different to what we're being told is actually happening. I find nothing to believe that, instead of an actual, baby Dragon that had just been hatched, that Dany had tiny spaceships (that grow, by themselves?) sat on her shoulder, and wrapped around her body when she stood at the end of AGoT after the pyre.  

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

52 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

I read a lot of it many years ago. My apologies if I forgot the particular flavour of their theory. I wasn't convinced then that there was this whole underlying narrative being told, and I'm not convinced now. Though I did appreciate their attempt to connect mythological happenings to astronomical ones... though I see it more of a symbolic connection... The Star "kissed" the Moon (or whatever) and Dragons were born, connected to Drogo and Daenerys calling each other "my sun and stars" and "moon of my life", and from their relationship (and its tragic end) Dragons were reborn. But, it's a symbolic connection... I don't think that Drogo was actually a luminous sphere of hot plasma being held together by his own gravity. 

There is no "conclusive proof" that something radically different to what we're being told is actually happening. I find nothing to believe that, instead of an actual, baby Dragon that had just been hatched, that Dany had tiny spaceships (that grow, by themselves?) sat on her shoulder, and wrapped around her body when she stood at the end of AGoT after the pyre.  

I think it is disingenuous to dismiss as unconvincing a group of essays that is hundreds of pages long at this point, without even having read them.  I have listened to each of his podcasts at least a few times, and repetition of symbolism, archetypes, and re-enactment of mythological events is pretty overwhelming, and in such a way that it is pretty clear that ASOIAF is not a literal description of actual events, but a mythology.

If you take a strict literal interpretation of the story, how can you explain the Qartheen moon legend, was it just a myth?  If so, how and where can you draw the line between what is myth and what is true history?

With regards to George wanting to make magic more mysterious, by couching the story in the worldview of iron-age humans who have no idea what they are witnessing you achieve that sense of wonder and bewilderment, but I think that he also deliberately dropped a bunch of breadcrumbs indicating that there is something else going on.

[Unacosamedarisa]

31 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I think it is disingenuous to dismiss as unconvincing a group of essays that is hundreds of pages long at this point, without even having read them.

Like I say, I have read them... a long time ago. I dismissed them, largely, then. And doubt that they've somehow become more plausible over time.

31 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

repetition of symbolism, archetypes, and re-enactment of mythological events is pretty overwhelming, and in such a way that it is pretty clear that ASOIAF is not a literal description of actual events, but a mythology.

I disagree... It is a literal description of events. Dany hatched Dragon Eggs through a ritual... She didn't build spaceships. We're told she hatched Dragons, we have Dragons described to us... there's no evidence that they are actually space ships. Gregor Clegane is a man, he's described as such, and every one treats him as such... he's not a spaceship. 

31 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

If you take a strict literal interpretation of the story, how can you explain the Qartheen moon legend, was it just a myth?  If so, how and where can you draw the line between what is myth and what is true history?

Yes... it's a myth. Not saying that nothing happened and it's purely made up, or that it had nothing to do with Dragons. Perhaps a comet really did impact with a 2nd moon, causing some sort of cataclysm. The events aren't fully understood, and become romanticised over time, and we get the story we have. But I have seen no textual evidence that it was, in reality, somebody shooting an orbiting space ship which then became lots of little space ships. 

The confusion of history and myth is a prominent part of the books... People think the Long Night and the Others are myths, but it was a historical event. Or Sam pointing out that stories have Knights in them 100s of years before the Andals brought Knighthood to Westeros. 

31 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

but I think that he also deliberately dropped a bunch of breadcrumbs indicating that there is something else going on.

Care to share some of them?

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

52 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Gregor Clegane is a man, he's described as such, and every one treats him as such... he's not a spaceship.

If the events in Westeros are a mythologized retelling of true events, people can represent other things.  In the case of Gregor he is not described often in the text so the evidence is scant, but he is a "mountain that rides" but "doesn't shake the ground" which is pretty suggestive language, he has a stone fist on his helmet, he is unhorsed by spears or lances two or 3 times, Oberyn the Red Viper "war hammer" Martell spears him repeated with a tree-ish spear, he is brought down by these poisoned spears and loses his head--he is also described as killing or brutalizing people for "making too much noise" which is a direct reference to the god Enlil from the Epic of Gilgamesh who wiped out humans for making too much noise.  His sigil is 3 black dogs on a field of yellow, he is described at least once as blocking out the sun, his brother is described several times as blocking out the sun.

The case for Sander being the Stranger is much stronger with a fair amount of textual support, go back and read that section.  Has anyone ever given an explanation for what the Stranger is supposed to be in the Faith of the Seven?

And Dorne being the Weirwood net, the right down to describing the cave carvings.  Just the place and character names alone are quite suggestive.

Also, just think about the logistics of making a truly enormous city the size of Asshai completely out of fused black stone, and they were supposed to have used dragons to melt every single piece of stone?  (And the Five Forts, and the Valyrian Roads, and Volantis, and ?) I think that seems a little much to ask even of magical dragons. 

But we are in agreement that some portion of the story is myth, somewhere between 1% and 100% (and in some cases deliberate misinformation, e.g. Maesters' history), I am arguing that you can make a lot more sense out of the story if we are closer to 100%.

[The Mother of The Others]

4 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

If you haven't yet, you need to listen to or read LML's essays, he has pretty conclusively proven that there is a story within the story.  I just have a different idea than him about what that story is.

Constructive talk mode now.   Not bashing or lampooning.   Real advice, of the kind that might really be important to a life, rebalancing and profitable:

You're an author who doesn't know it.   That's why you're terraforming (world building) on a world where there's already life (planetos) like Zod tried in Man of Steel.  And like in that example, this is not the best use of your abilities.  (to undermine what is.)   Launch!   (Like those trees).   Contact an agent.  Create life where there is none!

The reason I tuned in to this topic in the first place is from seeing a particular genius in how all things were being converted into your mythos, a powerful filter like that is a skill, it's "authorship."    All of us here have probably been inspired by R.R. Martin to do what you're doing to some extent.   Not quite to this extent, but I do try to 'creatively' figure out what George is planning.  When I do so, I stay within the confines of the story/genre/spirit of the Song he's singing so that he keeps top billing and I'm credited as a mere fan caught up by the greatness of another who inspired me to dabble in it as a hobby. 

You and the other deep delving theorists have moreso your own stories that you're trying to tell, I've noticed, and are applying it to Ice and Fire  (or whichever author's world fascinates you next). 

"Why the parasite approach toward George's work, though?"  (... Is what i wondered about you alternate-truth deep-hidden-theorist types...until I realized y'all are proto- authors.  Which is a compliment!  You're already prolific.  Clearly.   But you lacked an audience?  And, I assume, also lacked the confidence to take your material and whip it into shape and try to get published in your own right!  That's what needs to happen here.  Fooling this audience with the offer of a deeper understanding of Ice and Fire would pale in comparison to earning an audience on the merits of your personal worldbuilding.  The writer's bug is within you, the need to put pen to paper and tell the world's real story , what lies underneath.  But instead the impulse has been shunted down a less productive path of glomming on to an established author and infiltrating his mythos with yours...when it could be far more fulfilling and profitable to build your own story foundation and then layer THAT world with all the hidden truths and secret histories your heart desires.   And it would be gloriously real, not "theory."   

It's the same thing I'd tell that individual who went on and on about the Jade emperor and the real truths of the ancient world until it just became really apparent that it wasn't healthy but obsessive, like their energies were spinning away with great force but stuck in the mud, wasted.  Misdirected.  And this guilty redirect is coming from someone who knows and has wasted a good many years toiling within the worlds of others for no gain while my own universe was right there, atrophied, after having been richly built up in the imagination of my childhood as if I had something of my own to tell, so...   Anyway, done.  Said.  No further interruptions.

 

 

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

1 hour ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Constructive talk mode now.   Not bashing or lampooning.   Real advice, of the kind that might really be important to a life, rebalancing and profitable:

That's all good advice, and thanks for the kind words.  I really have no interest in writing, and I don't even like fiction very much.  I feel like I got trolled by George into writing all this because I just can't stand an unsolved mystery, and that is really at the heart of it.  (I wonder if that was what he was trying to do.)  I should have never started reading an unfinished series.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 6:08 PM, By Odin's Beard said:

That's all good advice, and thanks for the kind words.  I really have no interest in writing, and I don't even like fiction very much.  I feel like I got trolled by George into writing all this because I just can't stand an unsolved mystery, and that is really at the heart of it.  (I wonder if that was what he was trying to do.)  I should have never started reading an unfinished series.

For what it's worth, here is Martin in March of 1999 on the subject of Planetos being Earth:

Quote

dwiff	With references to aurochs, direwolves, and "winter is coming," are we to read any Earth prehistory into these books? Like the ice ages?
George_RR_Martin	No, it's a secondary world, like Tolkien's Middle Earth. No link to "our" earth.

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Yeah, but didn't he also criticize Tolkien for trying to make Middle Earth the real Earth?

 

For those who doubt that the Clegane brothers are spaceships that will block out the sun

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Skoll (“One Who Mocks”) and Hati (“One Who Hates”) were two brother wolves, Skoll was a wolf that persued the sun in her flight across the sky.  At Ragnarok, the doom of the gods, Skoll was destined to seize the sun between his jaws and swallow her.  Another wolf, Hati, chased after the moon.  (Some have the roles of Skoll and Hati reversed). 

At Ragnarok, the downfall of the cosmos, they catch their prey as the sky and earth darken and collapse.

Ravenous dogs often threatened to eat the heavenly bodies in the myths of northern parts of both Europe and Asia.

There is the Chinese myth of tiangou

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tiangou ("Heavenly Dog") is a legendary creature from China. The tiangou resembles a black dog or meteor, which is thought to eat the sun or moon during an eclipse

In one myth the black dog is chased away by the god Zhāng Xiān who fires arrows at it.  Modern Chinese apparently shoot fireworks during the eclipse to scare the tiangou away.  Shooting fireworks and arrows at a black dog who is blocking the sun?  That sounds familiar.