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Does this line confirm that TPTWP is three people?

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16 hours ago, Amris said:

A nice idea! However the grammar works against it:

Yes, I think your starting point is correct and the Valyrian word for prince/princess seems to also mean dragon. Based on that 'the dragon has three heads' could mean 'the prince/princess has three heads.' Indeed most of us seem to think that indeed three humans and not three literal dragons are meant.

Here comes the catch though: 'The dragon has three heads' and 'the prince that was promised' are two different sentences. The heads are in plural form, yes but everyone who mentions the prince speaks in singular form. They say 'prince', not 'princes'.

Melisandre talks to Stannis of one prince that was promised, in Dany's HotU vision Rhaegar speaks of but one prince. Likewise maester Aemon talks to Sam about the prophecy being about a prince, (not several princes.) And Barristan tells Dany about the wood's witch prophecy that claims that the prince would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

Conclusion: while there may be three 'heads' only one of those is the promised prince.

Yes, that is where the concept of the Christian Trinity comes into play. So Christianity is regarded as a monotheistic religion and worships one God (singular form). However, that God has three aspects, known as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So one God, three faces. Martin uses this concept in the series, explaining that the Seven are actually a single deity with seven aspects. They only refer to them in plural because it is a hard concept for the smallfolk to grasp. So one God, seven faces. I think that the Prince that Was Promised will be similar. One prophesied figure with three distinct aspects, in the form of three different individuals. One dragon, three heads. One saviour, three aspects. One prince with three faces.

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Posted (edited)

You merge the 'three heads of the dragon' and the 'prince that was promised' into one prophecy that reads: 'the three heads of the prince'.

That's a good idea, I give you that. :D

In fact it is so neat that I had to edit my post twice because I kept thinking about the subject! First I disagreed, then I agreed, now I don't know, haha.

The conclusion I finally seem to settle on is that while I love your basic concept there is one thing that bugs me: if we make the prince into a trinity as well (as the three heads who already are the undisputable trinity right there) then I don't really see how the story is going to end logically.

What I mean is that the three heads of the dragon = three aspects of the trinity have to have different roles to play or else a trinity is not needed in the first place. Like father, son and holy spirit are three roles. Or the seven deities of the faith of the seven. Each has their distinct name and role.

And in our story we already have the trinity in the form of the 'three heads fo the dragon' so we do not really need a second name for the same thing. Rather we need distinct names for the distinct roles of that trinity. (Like father, mother, crone etc). Thus the 'prince that was promised' seems to serve a more logical function if used to name one of those three aspects, not all three. It also fits Jon especially well :P

 

Edited by Amris

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Ah, but what role does each play? 

Quote

Three-headed Trios has the tower with the three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do.

The Ugly Little Girl, Dance 64

Daenerys is the Mother of Dragons, and Jon appears to be in need of a little resurrecting about now, but it seems to me that the second head is just going to get in the way. 

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23 hours ago, Megorova said:

They were. There was a whole book of them, written by Daenys the Dreamer, ancestor of House Targaryen, that saw in one of her visions the Doom of Valyria.

I wasn't talking about Daenys. I mean the original (if you can call it that) PTWP and AA prophesies--weren't Valyrians recording these from ancient sources as well? So they were probably not as accurate as we might think they are. Daenys, on the other hand, was writing down visions she had seen in her diary, so it's a first person account and more accurate. 

23 hours ago, Megorova said:

Three people, descendants of Aerys and Rhaella - Jon (Azor Ahai, because in his dream, he had blazing sword, Lightbringer), Dany (born second out of three of them, became first dragonrider, hatched dragon eggs, thus she is the central head of the dragon, the Princess that was promised), and Rhaego (the Last Hero, because he will be still fighting against the Others, when nearly all the rest of characters will already die, either in a battles or from old age).

I think someone else has already pointed this out; if Jon wields Lightbringer as he sees in a dream and is AA, then why would he ride a dragon? As a swordsman he should be on the ground engaged in melee combat. We kno Dany is a dragon rider because she is the only one so far who has managed to ride in the present time. Rhaego  is gone. We only assume that the other two dragons would have riders. 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, LynnS said:

No, but Rhaegar, Viserys and Dany are from the line of Aerys and Rhaella and Doran has tied all of them up in marriage contracts.

Not Dany... she has no marriage compact with Dorne, and I still don’t really understand where you’re going with this...

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The syntax of 'that the prince was promised' and 'the prince who is promised' have different meanings of outcomes to me. 

I still don’t see the meaningful difference, but maybe I’m being slow...

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It gets down to the business of Martin fudging his words.  For example:

- when the stars bleed

- the bleeding star 

or

- reborn from salt tears and smoke

- born from salt and smoke

Wait, we haven’t heard the actual prophesy... only bits an d pieces through third parties.

But you’re putting the interpretation in there... the “salt tears” line is Aemon explaining how he used to think but no longer does. The Tears are not part of the prophesy. 

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It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

Aemon also says that the dragons prove Dany is the PTWP... 

Since we don’t know the whole prophesy itself, I’m inclined to believe him.

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The prophecy of the pwip is mixed up with the prophecy about AA as well; at least according to Melisandre.

Is there reason to believe they aren’t the same prophesy?

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So yes, Dany fits the bill for some of this prophecy since she wakes dragons from stone.  However, Rhaegar is certain that Aegon is the pwip.  So I wonder if he thinks the pwip comes from the Targ/Dorne bloodline and if this also something that Prince Doran thinks  -- the reason that the has tied up the line of Aerys/Rhaella in marriage contracts.  

We barely know any of the prophesy, and she fits what we do know... especially the whole literally having brought about the return of dragons in a miraculous fire under the red comet.

Rhaegar looks straight at Dany and says there must be one more... not to mention that any vision in the House of the Undying should be viewed with suspicion, not necessarily as completely false but almost certainly intentionally misleading.

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And of course, I wonder why Oberyn spent time at the Citadel and now Sarella.  Were they looking for information about the prophecy?  

Maybe, or some other game... again I’m not sure I see the direct connection...

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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17 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Not Dany... she has no marriage compact with Dorne, and I still don’t really understand where you’re going with this...

Quentyn shows up with a marriage contract signed by Willem Derry and Oberyn Martel, witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos.  This is a contract concerning Viserys but for some reason Dany also thinks she is bound by it.  Selmy mentions that the contract doesn't mention her at all.  So why does she think she is also bound by it (even though she doesn't seem to have any intention honoring it).

I'm sorry, i'm not explaining myself very well.  Doran Martell seems to have had a contract first with Rhaegar to marry Elia and then he makes a new contract for Viserys after Rhaegar's death (assuming also Aegon's death).  However, the contract is worded; it seems to include offspring from the line of Aerys/Rhaella including Dany although she is not mentioned by name.

So basically Prince Doran ends up with marriage contracts for anyone who could possibly be from the line of Aerys/Rhaella.  I don't think this is purely political given his interest in the Citadel.  I think this has something to do with the prophecy of the pwip.   Doran and possibly Rhaegar seem to think that the pwip will come from the line of Aerys/Rhaella and Dorne. 

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38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Quentyn shows up with a marriage contract signed by Willem Derry and Oberyn Martel, witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos.  This is a contract concerning Viserys but for some reason Dany also thinks she is bound by it.  Selmy mentions that the contract doesn't mention her at all.  So why does she think she is also bound by it (even though she doesn't seem to have any intention honoring it).

I don’t think Dany felt bound by it... she isn’t included in it and I don’t know why you think this. She briefly considers Frog’s proposal, but not seriously...

38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm sorry, i'm not explaining myself very well.  Doran Martell seems to have had a contract first with Rhaegar to marry Elia and then he makes a new contract for Viserys after Rhaegar's death (assuming also Aegon's death). 

This is causal though... he makes a contract with Viserys because of Elia’s death. Now that doesn’t discount what you are suggesting, some prophesy reason for doing it, I’m just not sure it indicates that.

38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

However, the contract is worded; it seems to include offspring from the line of Aerys/Rhaella including Dany although she is not mentioned by name.

What? How so?

38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So basically Prince Doran ends up with marriage contracts for anyone who could possibly be from the line of Aerys/Rhaella.  I don't think this is purely political given his interest in the Citadel.  I think this has something to do with the prophecy of the pwip.   Doran and possibly Rhaegar seem to think that the pwip will come from the line of Aerys/Rhaella and Dorne. 

Interesting, again I’m not sure I follow the logic since Doran’s contract with Viserys is a single event and not exactly a pattern, while Elia was married to Rhaegar by her mother right?

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Quentyn shows up with a marriage contract signed by Willem Derry and Oberyn Martel, witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos.  This is a contract concerning Viserys but for some reason Dany also thinks she is bound by it.  Selmy mentions that the contract doesn't mention her at all.  So why does she think she is also bound by it (even though she doesn't seem to have any intention honoring it).

I'm sorry, i'm not explaining myself very well.  Doran Martell seems to have had a contract first with Rhaegar to marry Elia and then he makes a new contract for Viserys after Rhaegar's death (assuming also Aegon's death).  However, the contract is worded; it seems to include offspring from the line of Aerys/Rhaella including Dany although she is not mentioned by name.

So basically Prince Doran ends up with marriage contracts for anyone who could possibly be from the line of Aerys/Rhaella.  I don't think this is purely political given his interest in the Citadel.  I think this has something to do with the prophecy of the pwip.   Doran and possibly Rhaegar seem to think that the pwip will come from the line of Aerys/Rhaella and Dorne. 

Does she? I never got that impression. 

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30 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Does she? I never got that impression. 

Let me rephrase: she acknowledges that the contract includes her but doesn't feel bound by it. 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Let me rephrase: she acknowledges that the contract includes her but doesn't feel bound by it. 

I don’t think it does include her though... and she certainly isn’t mentioned.

Quote

"It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavoswhen I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper's men could take us. Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness." She handed the parchment to Ser Barristan, so he might read it for himself. "The alliance is to be sealed by a marriage, it says. In return for Dorne's help overthrowing the Usurper, my brother Viserys is to take Prince Doran's daughter Arianne for his queen."

 

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Posted (edited)

 

 

11 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

"It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavoswhen I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper's men could take us. Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness." She handed the parchment to Ser Barristan, so he might read it for himself. "The alliance is to be sealed by a marriage, it says. In return for Dorne's help overthrowing the Usurper, my brother Viserys is to take Prince Doran's daughter Arianne for his queen."

I'm referring to this:

According to Ser Barristan Selmy, the secret marriage pact contains "not a word" about Daenerys Targaryen,[5] although Daenerys states after reading the pact that Ser Willem Darry signed "for us".[1]

She believes the pact includes her although she is not named.

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

 

I'm referring to this:

According to Ser Barristan Selmy, the secret marriage pact contains "not a word" about Daenerys Targaryen,[5] although Daenerys states after reading the pact that Ser Willem Darry signed "for us".[1]

She believes the pact includes her although she is not named.

As someone who doesn’t believe she lived in Braavos with Darry and Viserys, I think this fits right in with her misconceptions about her childhood... and the house with the red door. 

But I think I understand where you were coming from better.

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I wasn't talking about Daenys. I mean the original (if you can call it that) PTWP and AA prophesies--weren't Valyrians recording these from ancient sources as well?

The prophecy about TPTWP, is a prophecy given to Targaryens, from Lady Jenny's wood's witch/the Ghost of High Heart. So from her, they had information, that descendant/descendants of Jaehaerys II Targaryen will be a hero/heroes that will save the world. Or something like that. And then later, when Rhaegar and Aemon thought, that it could be Rhaegar (the promised Prince), he was reading some scrolls, and based on that information, decided that he needs to become a warrior. So my guess, is that those scrolls were from Targaryens' personal library, and it was parts of book written by Daenys the Dreamer. I think that Targaryens didn't knew about Azor Ahai. When they came to Dragonstone, at that time, they had their own gods, so they were not followers of R'hllor. Furthermore, first Long Night happened prior appearance of Valyrian race. So they had zero interest in Fire religion, their legends, Azor Ahai, his past and the prophecy about his return. The only prophecies that they were aware of, were written in Daenys' book, and one more they got from Jenny's witch.

6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I think someone else has already pointed this out; if Jon wields Lightbringer as he sees in a dream and is AA, then why would he ride a dragon? As a swordsman he should be on the ground engaged in melee combat.

If the Undead Army will cross The Wall, then the white walkers will spread all over 7K. And it takes 6 months for the living army to get from The Wall to Stormlands (based on what JonCon said to fAegon, when they were at Jon's castle, that Stannis is useless to them, because he is too far away). White walkers, and dead horses of the Others, don't need to rest, or eat, they don't feel pain, cold, fear, or fatigue. Thus they will be spreading much faster, than living army can follow. So to get all of them, dragon-transport is necessary. And to make them (dragons) efficient, not just randomly flying and randomly burning random things, including living people and castles, dragons will need guidance from their riders. Thus if there will be three dragonriders, then they will be able to fly in three different directions from The North - south, west and east, and each of them will be separately dealing with his/her own part of Undead Army.     

The reason why Jon will ride a dragon, is because dragons can fly, and they are fast. ^_^ And during Apocalypse, the speed is very important. If Jon won't have a dragon, then by the time he will get from The Wall, to other regions of 7K, all inhabitants of Westeros will be either eaten by white walkers, or will themselves become white walkers.

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On 3/8/2018 at 2:27 PM, LynnS said:

No, but Rhaegar, Viserys and Dany are from the line of Aerys and Rhaella and Doran has tied all of them up in marriage contracts.


 

You overstate your case. There never was a contract with Dany, and the one with Viserys was pretty tenuous. The only non-Martel that even knew about the contract died and there was no effort made to contact Viserys to make him aware of it.

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6 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm referring to this:

According to Ser Barristan Selmy, the secret marriage pact contains "not a word" about Daenerys Targaryen,[5] although Daenerys states after reading the pact that Ser Willem Darry signed "for us".[1]

She believes the pact includes her although she is not named.

It's never a good idea to cite the Wiki to support your argument. It's a great resource, but it's written by folks like us, who can misinterpret or overinterpret things just like we can. 

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12 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It's never a good idea to cite the Wiki to support your argument. It's a great resource, but it's written by folks like us, who can misinterpret or overinterpret things just like we can. 

The actual quote was included in the post from LiveFast.  The wiki for once is correct.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

As someone who doesn’t believe she lived in Braavos with Darry and Viserys, I think this fits right in with her misconceptions about her childhood... and the house with the red door. 

But I think I understand where you were coming from better.

And that's another issue, because I don't think she was there either and that's the reason her name isn't specifically included in the contract.  However, she thinks she was there and that Willem signed for both of them (Viserys and Dany).  So there is something about the wording of the contract that we are not privy to that leads Dany to think that the contract includes her in some way.  Or something that Doran Martell thinks he can use as far as it concerns Dany.

At any rate, the fact that Dany isn't named in the contract could support the notion that she isn't the offspring of Aerys and Rhaella.  The notion that Doran Martel is tying up all the known offspring of Aerys/Rhaella in marriage contracts could support the idea that the pwip will come from the line of Aerys/Rhaella and Dorne;  if, that supports his interest in the Citadel and placing family members there for some reason.  Certainly Rhaegar seems to think that Aegon is the pwip from his marriage with Elia.  As far as Doran is concerned, Dany is Rhaegar's sister.  

 

Edited by LynnS

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13 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

You overstate your case. There never was a contract with Dany, and the one with Viserys was pretty tenuous. The only non-Martel that even knew about the contract died and there was no effort made to contact Viserys to make him aware of it.

I think I'm not explaining myself very well.

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On 3/9/2018 at 2:17 AM, Amris said:

You merge the 'three heads of the dragon' and the 'prince that was promised' into one prophecy that reads: 'the three heads of the prince'.

That's a good idea, I give you that. :D

In fact it is so neat that I had to edit my post twice because I kept thinking about the subject! First I disagreed, then I agreed, now I don't know, haha.

The conclusion I finally seem to settle on is that while I love your basic concept there is one thing that bugs me: if we make the prince into a trinity as well (as the three heads who already are the undisputable trinity right there) then I don't really see how the story is going to end logically.

What I mean is that the three heads of the dragon = three aspects of the trinity have to have different roles to play or else a trinity is not needed in the first place. Like father, son and holy spirit are three roles. Or the seven deities of the faith of the seven. Each has their distinct name and role.

And in our story we already have the trinity in the form of the 'three heads fo the dragon' so we do not really need a second name for the same thing. Rather we need distinct names for the distinct roles of that trinity. (Like father, mother, crone etc). Thus the 'prince that was promised' seems to serve a more logical function if used to name one of those three aspects, not all three. It also fits Jon especially well :P

 

That's a really interesting concept. I've never really understood why people thought Azor Ahai, the Prince that Was Promised and the Last Hero were different people because I've always just seen them as different names for the same concept, but maybe they are more like the 

'three roles'  you are talking about. So Jon could be TPTWP, Dany could be Azor Ahai, and a third person could be the Last Hero.

 

However, I think I prefer to think of the three roles in more human terms, rather than assigning each head of the dragon a different prophesied figure. So let's assume for a moment that Jon, Dany and Tyrion are the three heads of the dragon. As a bastard, a dwarf and a woman they have each occupied different marginalized spaces in Westerosi society that have influenced who they are today. As a group, they would each have a different role in the group dynamic. Dany and Jon represent the two extremes, ice and fire, while Tyrion would be more of a middle ground and keep the peace between the two, forging compromises and deferring to wisdom where Dany and Jon might prefer to be stubborn and righteous/honorable. It also relates to the interesting quote that a previous poster mentioned about the three heads of Trios and not knowing what the middle head does. Compared to Dany and Jon, it might be easy to ask what Tyrion would bring to such a trinity and his practical contributions to the group dynamic might go overlooked in comparison to Dany and Jon. 

 

In the end, I suppose we won't know until the series is finished, but it is fun to ponder the endless possibilities:D

 

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10 hours ago, LynnS said:

The actual quote was included in the post from LiveFast.  The wiki for once is correct.

It is, as long as it's not used to to suggest that she felt bound to stand in for Viserys. 

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