Jump to content
Rhae_Valarie

Does this line confirm that TPTWP is three people?

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
On 09.03.2018 at 2:43 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Ah, but what role does each play? 

Quote

Three-headed Trios has the tower with the three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do.

The Ugly Little Girl, Dance 64

Daenerys is the Mother of Dragons, and Jon appears to be in need of a little resurrecting about now, but it seems to me that the second head is just going to get in the way. 

If first head (Dany, first out of three, that became dragonrider) is death, and third (Jon, will become dragonrider the last) is rebirth, then the middle head (Rhaego) is the purgatory (where souls are purified by sacred fire. And Rhaego is going to be red priest, based on what Dany saw in her dream, fire poring out of Rhaego's mouth is a kiss of fire/life).

On 09.03.2018 at 6:43 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Rhaegar looks straight at Dany and says there must be one more...

It could be interpreted differently, based on to whom was he actually saying that. If he was saying it to Elia, then he meant, that he is the first, his son Aegon is second, and there must be one more, that is his next child (whom he fathered with Lyanna - Jon).

If he was talking to Dany, then she is the first, her son Rhaego is second, and one more is Jon. Because he doesn't know that he is a Targaryen, thus she has to find out truth about him. He's the third lie that she must slay - "From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies". Winged stone beast, that breathes shadow/secret/concealed fire, what could it be? :idea:-> secret Targaryen/dragon, born at the Tower of Joy, that after Lyanna's death, was destroyed, possibly burned, by Ned. Either this vision was about Jon's birth, or about his rebirth, in burned tower of Lord Commander. Though based on other two trinities of visions, this event took place between Rhaegar's death (Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death) and arrival of little Jon to Winterfell (A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire).

Also there's connection between Dany's dragons and their future dragonriders, and who they are. On Drogo's funeral pyre, she first placed black egg, under Drogo's left arm, near his heart. And this dragon first out of three got himself a rider. And the egg's placement, is a clue that this dragon will be the closest/dearest to Dany, the one with whom she will form a bond. Second on the pyre was placed green egg (Rhaegel), near Drogo's head, and Dany coiled Drogo's braid around that egg. Second dragonrider will be Dothraki Khal, and Drogo's son, because long hair symbolise that Drogo was never defeated, and also in some cultures it symbolises fertility, and thus children. So second dragonrider will be Rhaego. Third on the pyre was placed white egg (Viseryon's), between Drogo's legs. Which is a hint that third dragonrider will be one of mounts that Dany must ride (three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love), and her third husband - Jon Snow.

Can't be, that GRRM wrote so many clues (there are others besides those about funeral pyre), that point out to identities of three heads of the dragon (Dany, Rhaego, Jon), but won't make it actually happen in the end.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

That's a really interesting concept. I've never really understood why people thought Azor Ahai, the Prince that Was Promised and the Last Hero were different people because I've always just seen them as different names for the same concept, but maybe they are more like the 'three roles'  you are talking about. So Jon could be TPTWP, Dany could be Azor Ahai, and a third person could be the Last Hero.

However, I think I prefer to think of the three roles in more human terms, rather than assigning each head of the dragon a different prophesied figure. So let's assume for a moment that Jon, Dany and Tyrion are the three heads of the dragon. As a bastard, a dwarf and a woman they have each occupied different marginalized spaces in Westerosi society that have influenced who they are today. As a group, they would each have a different role in the group dynamic. Dany and Jon represent the two extremes, ice and fire, while Tyrion would be more of a middle ground and keep the peace between the two, forging compromises and deferring to wisdom where Dany and Jon might prefer to be stubborn and righteous/honorable. It also relates to the interesting quote that a previous poster mentioned about the three heads of Trios and not knowing what the middle head does. Compared to Dany and Jon, it might be easy to ask what Tyrion would bring to such a trinity and his practical contributions to the group dynamic might go overlooked in comparison to Dany and Jon. 

In the end, I suppose we won't know until the series is finished, but it is fun to ponder the endless possibilities:D

Perhaps Eldric Shadowchaser and Hyrkoon the Hero from the Bone Mountains are homages to the anti-hero Elric of Melnibone and his cousin and evil counterpart Yyrkoon.

Elric of Melnibone is but one aspect of the Eternal Champion, a hero who exists in all dimensions, times, and worlds in the Moorcock Multiverse. The Eternal Champion is chosen by fate to fight for the Cosmic Balance between Chaos and Law (i.e., order). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Megorova said:

didn't knew about Azor Ahai. When they came to Dragonstone, at that time, they had their own gods, so they were not followers of R'hllor. Furthermore, first Long Night happened prior appearance of Valyrian race. So they had zero interest in Fire religion, their legends, Azor Ahai, his past and the prophecy about his return. The only prophecies that they were aware of, were written in Daenys' book, and one more they got from Jenny's witch.

Really? The Valyrians with dragons--fire made flesh--has zero interest in fire magic? The Azor Ahai prophesy appears in many cultures throughout world as explained in TWoIaF. Valyrians  I think has theirs. Also, the PTWP was originally translated from Valyrian, meaning it was obviously a prophesy Valyrians knew about. Jenny tells the Targs that PTWP would descend from Aerys II and Rhaella's union. So they already knew what the prophesy was about. 

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

The reason why Jon will ride a dragon, is because dragons can fly, and they are fast.

Ok, so the dragons are flying machines. So when Jon is off dragonback fighting with his magic sword, who's going to control the dragon? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It is, as long as it's not used to to suggest that she felt bound to stand in for Viserys. 

She thinks the contract includes her or that Willem signed for her as well, even though she is not named.   She doesn't seem inclined to honor the conditions of the secret pact.  But my point is not what she thinks but rather what Doran Martel thinks in using that contract in an attempt to bind her to his house. Again, I think this has something to do with the prophecy and what the Prince of Dorne thinks about it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 10.03.2018 at 1:06 AM, Megorova said:

zero interest in Fire religion

11 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Really? The Valyrians with dragons--fire made flesh--has zero interest in fire magic?

Magic and religion are different things. Religion is theory, while magic is practical usage of supernatural forces. R'hllor wasn't Valyrian deity. They were not a devoted religious followers at all.

"The Valyrians had a number of different gods, including Balerion, Meraxes, Vhagar, and Syrax.[43][44][45][46]

According to some scholars, the dragonlords regarded all faiths as equally false, and looked down on clergy and temples as relics of more primitive times but useful to placate the lower classes with promises of a better life to come after death. Thus, they promoted religious tolerance in order to keep their subjects divided, and prevent them from unifying under the banner of a single god.[20]"

"The people of Valyria were very strong in magic, and they would use their powerful wizards and their dragons in conjunction with their armies to conquer most of Essos west of the Bone Mountains. Dragons were controlled by whips, magic horns, and sorcery."

11 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Also, the PTWP was originally translated from Valyrian

Most likely from the book of prophecies recorded by Daenys the Dreamer ("Signs and Portents", maester Marwyn has read three pages of that book), the one who predicted the Doom of Valyria. Thus it has zero connection to Lord of Light and prophecies of red priests.

11 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Ok, so the dragons are flying machines. So when Jon is off dragonback fighting with his magic sword, who's going to control the dragon? 

If you have a car, who is riding it, after you leave it in a parking lot? No one. The car is waiting for your return. Same with the dragon.

And dragons can't reach everywhere. Their fire won't get into the basements, dungeons, or crypts. So to get rid of all wights, people will have to kill them manually.

If they will use only dragons, then after the war against the dead will end, then the entire continent will be a scorched ruin. And it's still winter, so even after the war will be over, people will still need to live somewhere. So burning all castles, and cities and houses by dragonflame, isn't a viable option.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Megorova said:

"The people of Valyria were very strong in magic, and they would use their powerful wizards and their dragons in conjunction with their armies to conquer most of Essos west of the Bone Mountains. Dragons were controlled by whips, magic horns, and sorcery."

Where did you get this quote from? Bc it isn't exactly accurate. 

Just now, Megorova said:

Magic and religion are different things. Religion is theory, while magic is practical usage of supernatural forces. R'hllor wasn't Valyrian deity. They were not a devoted religious followers at all.

"The Valyrians had a number of different gods, including Balerion, Meraxes, Vhagar, and Syrax.[43][44][45][46]

According to some scholars, the dragonlords regarded all faiths as equally false, and looked down on clergy and temples as relics of more primitive times but useful to placate the lower classes with promises of a better life to come after death. Thus, they promoted religious tolerance in order to keep their subjects divided, and prevent them from unifying under the banner of a single god.[20]"

That's according to some scholars. We can discern that they may have regarded foreigner gods and faiths false, but they clearly had their own gods according to TWoIaF:

Quote

Of the history of Valyria as it is known today, many volumes have been written over the centuries, and the details of their conquests, their colonizations, the feuds of the dragonlords, the gods they worshipped...

So it's very inaccurate to say that Valyrians were irreligious. We don't know if R'hllor was not a Valyrian deity because deities have different names among different peoples. Also, in this world, religion and magic seem to be intertwined, unlike in the real world. The gods seem to have real power, apart from the new gods, the Seven, as far as we know. So they are not just believing for the sake of belief. Valyrians may have believed their gods to be true because their gods had real magical power that they could use. 

Just now, Megorova said:

Most likely from the book of prophecies recorded by Daenys the Dreamer, the one who predicted the Doom of Valyria. Thus it has zero connection to Lord of Light and prophecies of red priests.

Daenys didn't write a book of prophesies. She had a diary and I highly doubt it's accessible to the maesters of the Citadel. It's probably among the personal possessions of the Targs in their library, which could indicate that it's the book Rhaegar read. In any case, the PTWP prophesy seems to be too well known as a historical legend or a prophesy, not something that is less than 300 years old. Also, the fact that Targs take the prophesy as "prince" indicates that even they heard it first in translation. Otherwise they wouldn't make that gender mistake of their native tongue. 

Just now, Megorova said:

If you have a car, who is riding it, after you leave it in a parking lot? No one. The car is waiting for your return. Same with the dragon.

A dragon is very obviously not a car, it's a living creature and a very dangerous one at that. It's not gonna hover in the air doing nothing while the rider is on the ground doing battle. Also, a ranged, flying weapon like a dragon would only go to waste with a melee fighter. The dragon has to be controlled at all times and also protected from anti aircraft-like attacks. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Where did you get this quote from? Bc it isn't exactly accurate. 

I use asoiaf wikia for data from World book, easier to search info there.

3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

We don't know if R'hllor was not a Valyrian deity because deities have different names among different peoples.

That's not the point. The core of Fire religion, is that R'hllor is a single God. And Valyrians were worshiping numerous deities. It's like Buddhists or Catholics, worshipers of many gods or a single God. So no, Valyrians weren't worshiping R'hllor, because if they were, he would have been their only deity.

3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Daenys didn't write a book of prophesies. She had a diary and I highly doubt it's accessible to the maesters of the Citadel.

It's called "Signs and Portents".

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Signs_and_Portents

Maester Marwyn have read three pages from it. So I think that he found it at the Citadel's library.

3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

It's probably among the personal possessions of the Targs in their library, which could indicate that it's the book Rhaegar read.

Most likely it was in the Targ's library, and Rhaegar did read it there. And he decided that he should be a warrior, if he is the promised Prince.

But even if part of the book was in Red Keep, doesn't mean that all of it was there. Some of their books are not binded into volumes, rather they are written on scrolls. So one book could be written on dozens scrolls. Or even if Daenys' book was a volume, some pages of it could have been at Targ's library, where Rhaegar found them, and some ended at the Citadel, where maester Marwyn read them. Or maybe after death of Mad King, Targ's library was robbed, or Robert sold some books, because he had debts, and those books were very valuable.

Or maybe it was Rhaegar, who gave those pages with the prophecy to Marwyn. I think that when Lyanna's was giving birth to Jon, maester Marwyn was her obstetrician. And he also helped Dany, and stopped internal bleeding, when she was giving birth to Rhaego. This is him:

"Ser Jorah’s face was drawn and sorrowful. “Rhaegar was the last dragon,” he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. “The last dragon,” he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone."

He came there with usage of glass candle. Same as Quaithe, that Dany saw as whispering and smiling stars, and read priest Moqorro and Rodrick Stark the Wandering Wolf.

"the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky"

"After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars."

"Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames."

3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

In any case, the PTWP prophesy seems to be too well known as a historical legend or a prophesy, not something that is less than 300 years old.

That's probably because there was two independent sources of it - more ancient from visions of red priests, and 400+ years old from Daenys' visions.

3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Also, the fact that Targs take the prophesy as "prince" indicates that even they heard it first in translation. Otherwise they wouldn't make that gender mistake of their native tongue. 

Not necessary. For example: cat/dog/mouse/dragon - male or female? Could be either. Same with that prophecy. They have read the way it was written - dragon. And they thought that it was male, they have read it as male, they didn't even thought that it could be a female, or that it could be plural/more than one.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/12/2018 at 1:36 AM, Megorova said:

That's not the point. The core of Fire religion, is that R'hllor is a single God. And Valyrians were worshiping numerous deities. It's like Buddhists or Catholics, worshipers of many gods or a single God. So no, Valyrians weren't worshiping R'hllor, because if they were, he would have been their only deity.

Why can't a single god be one among the many Valyrians worshiped? Also, we know R'hllor is real, but the Lord of the Light religion people may not really understand what the fire god is all about. As seen with Melisandre's character. Just because the new followers of R'hllor only worship one god, that doesn't mean R'hllor can't be part of a polytheistic canon. And Valyrians were all about fire so it's near unfathomable for there not to be a connection between them and R'hllor. (and Buddhists don't worship gods). 

 

On 3/12/2018 at 1:36 AM, Megorova said:

It's called "Signs and Portents".

Marwyn "claims" is the keyword here. Also, Daenys ended up in Dragonstone. If she had a prophesy, how did it travel all the way to Asshai, where Mel is from, and become quite popular as a prophesy? How do the CoTF know about it? Once again, if a Targ saw the PTWP in a vision, why do they need a special translation? This is an old prophesy, clearly, and one that many people misunderstand or have mistranslated. It's possible that PTWP is being conflated with Azhor Ahai, the much much older prophetic legend. 

On 3/12/2018 at 1:36 AM, Megorova said:

Or maybe it was Rhaegar, who gave those pages with the prophecy to Marwyn

Loads of maybes here and zero convincing connections. 

On 3/12/2018 at 1:36 AM, Megorova said:

That's probably because there was two independent sources of it - more ancient from visions of red priests, and 400+ years old from Daenys' visions.

huh?

On 3/12/2018 at 1:36 AM, Megorova said:

Not necessary. For example: cat/dog/mouse/dragon - male or female? Could be either. Same with that prophecy. They have read the way it was written - dragon. And they thought that it was male, they have read it as male, they didn't even thought that it could be a female, or that it could be plural/more than one.

We can discern safely from Maester Aemon's quote in the book that Targs first heard of the prophesy as "prince" as no one refers to a dragon that was promised. It's always prince, which indicates that some Westerosi maester or an explorer first translated it from original Valyrian to the Common, and the "prince" stuck. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Marwyn "claims" is the keyword here.

"Signs and Portents" exists. What Marwyn claims to have found is three missing pages. The book itself is a well known book and not missing.

23 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

We can discern safely from Maester Aemon's quote in the book that Targs first heard of the prophesy as "prince" as no one refers to a dragon that was promised

Nope. What we can discern from Aemon is that the original wording was dragon, It is literally the only reasonable explanation for why Aemon goes off on a discussion of dragons. It is not the promised one who is first one sex and then the other, it is dragons. Therefore, we can safely say the original word was dragon. Thus, it is really "the dragon that was promised".

Edited by bent branch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Nope. What we can discern from Aemon is that the original wording was dragon, It is literally the only reasonable explanation for why Aemon goes off on a discussion of dragons. It is not the promised one who is first one sex and then the other, it is dragons. Therefore, we can safely say the original word was dragon. Thus, it is really "the dragon that was promised".

Here is the quote from the book:

Quote

No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.” 

The original word may refer to a Valyrian royal title, which resulted in a possible mistranslation as "prince." Valyrians dragonlords, the human ones, are called dragons (eg: Aegon the Dragon). Dragon imagery is so prominent in Valyria so it was probably prominent in the language as well. It's possible the Valyrian royal titles had dragon imagery, like the head dragon or something. It must be a royal title of some sort, because otherwise why would the translator not use the word "dragon"? How does an animal name end up being "prince"? In Valyrian, the royal titles are probably not gendered, which is why Aemon says that dragons are neither male or female. But in Westeros royal titles are very gendered. So something that should be translated to "prince or princess" ended up just being "prince." That is, assuming that a bad translation occurred at all, which is what Aemon is doing here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Why can't a single god be one among the many Valyrians worshiped?

Because Fire religion is all about ONE god. According to red priests, all other gods are false.

Also that is the same, as if offering to Muslims to worship some other god, in addition to Allah. That's blasphemy. Same thing with Christianity and Catholicism. Unlike Buddhism or Shintoism, where there's many gods, those three religions are monopolistic. Fire religion and religion of Ironborn are also monopolistic, while religion of The North, and religion of Valyrians accept existence of many gods.

6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Also, we know R'hllor is real, but the Lord of the Light religion people may not really understand what the fire god is all about. As seen with Melisandre's character. Just because the new followers of R'hllor only worship one god, that doesn't mean R'hllor can't be part of a polytheistic canon. And Valyrians were all about fire so it's near unfathomable for there not to be a connection between them and R'hllor.

R'hllor's religion is at least 3.000 years older than Valyrian race. Because Azor Ahai was forging Lightbringer in a temple, in sacred flames. So it's more than likely, with addition that the prophecy about his return is also from red priests, that that temple was R'hllor's temple. And thus Fire religion is as old as Long Night, at least 8.000 years old. While Valyrians appeared only 5.000 year ago. Thus R'hllor wasn't their god. And later, when they were expanding their control over Essos and its population, they sort of accepted all gods, allowed different nations to worship their own gods, and they were expressing religious tolerance, but they themselves were not believers.

6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

(and Buddhists don't worship gods). 

They have more temples, than any other religion, aside from Muslim mosques. And many of their traditions are religion-related, including celebration of New Year in a temple or shrine. And they have mini-shrines in nearly every house, in nearly every family. Maybe they don't exactly worship gods, but there are many deities/higher spirits in the world, according to canons of Buddhism.

6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Marwyn "claims" is the keyword here.

What's the point of lying? If what he claims, he has read there, won't happen, then what?

6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Also, Daenys ended up in Dragonstone. If she had a prophesy, how did it travel all the way to Asshai, where Mel is from, and become quite popular as a prophesy?

Same event, Second Long Night, seen by many prophets, in different countries, in different times, including Daenys in Valyria 400+ years ago, by red priests in Asshai and Volantis 5.000 years ago, by the Children in Westeros/woods witch/Ghost of High Heart less than 50 years ago (sometime prior 259).

So Daenys' prophecy didn't traveled to Asshai. There they had their own prophecy, long before Daenys had those visions, long before she was born. Though probably there is a connection between dragons/Targaryens/ Valyrians and that prophecy in Asshai. Because they appeared at the same time, 5.000 years ago. First Valyrians found dragons in volcanoes, 5.000 years ago, and red priests in Asshai saw in a sacred flames a prophetic vision about Second Long Night.

6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

How do the CoTF know about it?

From weirwood network, for which time is a circle, not a line. So they know, or theoretically can know everything, if they will connect to the network a strong "reader"/interpreter/greenseer.

6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Once again, if a Targ saw the PTWP in a vision, why do they need a special translation?

Daenys saw many visions, and recorded them in her book. It's questionable whether she shared all of them with her family. Also most likely she didn't knew, when exactly those events will happen. Targaryens left Valyria 12 years prior the catastrophe happened. Based on Fire prophecy, red priests doesn't know when exactly will happen Second Long Night, they only know that prior it, there will be a Red Comet, and dragons will hatch from stones, and winter will begin, and that's all. But exact date, or even year, they don't know. So could be that Daenys saw those events, and Targaryens were waiting for them to happen, and when they didn't happened even after Daenys died, and after her children and grandchildren died from old age, and so on, then the prophecy was forgotten, or they just stopped waiting. It became treated like old news, and eventually was completely forgotten. Though the book was still there, in a Targ's library.

So when the woods witch predicted, that the promised Prince will be descendant of Aerys and Rhaella, when their son was born, and when maester Aemon thought, that the promised Prince is Rhaegar, then, after Rhaegar became aware of it, he went thru Targ's library and searched there for an old book of prophecies, recorded by his ancestor Daenys the Dreamer. And then he was first person, that have read that book, or that book's remnants, in the last 200+ years. And because Targaryens of that time were mostly using Common Tongue of Westeros, and Valyrian language they studied as their SECOND language, then that's how was made that misinterpretation in translation.

Because for Rhaegar, Valyrian was his second language, not first. Same with maester Aemon.

6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:
On 11.03.2018 at 10:06 PM, Megorova said:

Or maybe it was Rhaegar, who gave those pages with the prophecy to Marwyn

Loads of maybes here and zero convincing connections. 

I think that when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, Quaithe was there with her, and she helped her to deliver the baby. This my idea is based on what Dany experienced in that chapter. Also it seems that Dany had internal bleeding, so she needed medical help. And thus Mirri summoned there her teacher, maester Marwyn, and he came there thru glass candle. Then, based on how he said to Dany, that Rhaegar was the last dragon, sad and regretful, it feels like he personally knew Rhaegar, that Rhaegar's death was his personal loss.

We know that Quaithe is using glass candle.

We know that maester Marwyn is using glass candle.

We know that when Mirri Maz Duur was in Asshai, she studied medicin and Common Tongue from maester Marwyn.

We know that there was smiling and whispering stars, in that tent, when Dany was giving birth to her child. 

In her last chapter in ADWD, there were also whispering stars, and they spoke in a woman's voice, and told to Dany what Quaithe said to her before, and Dany recognized the voice, and then she also saw Quaithe's mask, that it is made of starlight (which is one of the reasons why I think that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar. Shiera also prefered star accessories - necklases with star saphires and emeralds). So this scene in ADWD is evidence that Quaithe was with Dany in AGOT, when Dany was giving birth to her child.

Thus Quaithe and Mirri Maz Duur were connected. And Mirri was connected with maester Marwyn. And both of them, Marwyn and Quaithe, were in Asshai, and both of them use glass candles. So there are three threads that connect Quaithe and maester Marwyn - Mirri, Asshai, glass candles.

Prior Jorah carried Dany inside Drogo's tent, where was performed blood magic ritual, she saw there shadows, and some of them, two, didn't looked like human. Based on how exactly was it phrased, it looks like there was four other people there, besides Mirri. Dany recognized Mirri, so when she was thinking about other dancing shadows, she wasn't including Mirri. And based on what exactly she thought, that some of shadows didn't looked human, then it seems that aside from those two inhuman shadows, there was two human shadows. The shadow with great wolf's head most likely was Rodrik Stark the Wandering Wolf, and one of Second Sons (their ex-member). The man in flames was red priest. Until recently, I used to think that it was Moqorro. But Moqorro was one of those (kraken and dark flame - Eurone and red priest Moqorro), about whom Quaithe warned Dany not to trust him. If Moqorro was one of those four in Drogo's tent, then he and Quaithe are associates, and thus she wouldn't have warned Dany about his arrival. Same as she didn't warned Dany about arrival of maester Marwyn. But Quaithe warned Dany only about Moqorro, and didn't said about Marwyn. Thus Marwyn is one of Quaithe's associates, and Moqorro probably isn't. So that man in flames is some other red priest. Moqorro was sent to Dany on order of High Priest Bennero, so I think that Bennero is also not someone to whom Dany should trust. So that leaves only two - Ezzelyno and Thoros. Ezzelyno is insignificant character. So the only option left is Thoros. And Thoros, in my opinion, is connected to Blackfyres, thru Anguy. Anguy, Balon Swann and Jalabhar Xho are agents of Blackfyres. Same as during Second Rebellion of Blackfyres, they used tournaments as cover for exchanging information. So one of human shadows was Quaithe, and the other one was maester Marwyn. Because that other person was man, he was using glass candle, and Dany saw him as Jorah Mormont. Probably in her subconsciousness Dany saw Marwyn as Jorah, because they are somehow connected. Either they look alike, or Marwyn is also from Bear Island, or maybe he's Mormont. One Mormont became Lord Commander, and his brother or some other relative became maester.    

I see plenty of evidences. But if you're not convinced, then what can I say :dunno: we'll have to wait for next book, to see whether my guess about all of that was correct.

6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

We can discern safely from Maester Aemon's quote in the book that Targs first heard of the prophesy as "prince" as no one refers to a dragon that was promised. It's always prince, which indicates that some Westerosi maester or an explorer first translated it from original Valyrian to the Common, and the "prince" stuck.

Or it was read by Targaryens, that lived in Westeros for the last 400 years, became assimilated, and their first language for many generations was Common Tongue, while their second language - Valyrian, they begin to learn, only when they are old enough to attend lessons.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I call this concept  ABC , or Azor By Committee.

Looks like you'll need to reserve a seat for Jamie.  His dreams are flaming more than his libido of late.      Daeneryssss, the Beyonce style front runner.   And for the last, Jon seems the more mobile and visible Stark for the job whereas Bran likes hidey holes and needs that wi- fi connection so he'd be better kept offstage, like the wizard of oz behind his curtain.

Let's leave on a high note by giving you a never before proposed 3 Headed Dragon.  Yes, this is about to be both groundbreaking and earth shattering.     First, one last a-do.

.. and now, without further a-do.....

Your 3 headed Dragon is.......

Alleras and Hot Pie.

(Alleras accounts for both genders, while the asexual Hot Pie is mighty content with neither gender, just give him some dough and enjoy the show, if you know what I'm saying.)

Edited by The Mother of The Others

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

So something that should be translated to "prince or princess" ended up just being "prince." That is, assuming that a bad translation occurred at all, which is what Aemon is doing here. 

"No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation."

Those fools are him and Rhaegar. The error crept in from THEIR translation. The two of them together misinterpreted what was written in there.

And this part - "The language misled us all for a thousand years." - doesn't actually mean that the prophecy is 1.000 years old. What it means is that for thousand years in Valyrian language, there was no gender distinction of that word, whether it was dragon or prince. It was a genderless word for thousand years.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Here is the quote from the book:

The original word may refer to a Valyrian royal title, which resulted in a possible mistranslation as "prince." Valyrians dragonlords, the human ones, are called dragons (eg: Aegon the Dragon). Dragon imagery is so prominent in Valyria so it was probably prominent in the language as well. It's possible the Valyrian royal titles had dragon imagery, like the head dragon or something. It must be a royal title of some sort, because otherwise why would the translator not use the word "dragon"? How does an animal name end up being "prince"? In Valyrian, the royal titles are probably not gendered, which is why Aemon says that dragons are neither male or female. But in Westeros royal titles are very gendered. So something that should be translated to "prince or princess" ended up just being "prince." That is, assuming that a bad translation occurred at all, which is what Aemon is doing here. 

Yes. Look at the quote again.

Quote

“No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

Aemon doesn't go into a dissertation on translating from whatever language into whatever language. He talks directly about the nature of dragons. This indicates that when it was translated, like you, they assumed that the prophecy was about some sort of nobility. Thus they took the original word, dragon, and mistranslated it as prince. Aemon says that when you return to the original word, dragon, then no assumption is being made as to the sex of the individual in the prophecy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Megorova said:

Because Fire religion is all about ONE god. According to red priests, all other gods are false.

Also that is the same, as if offering to Muslims to worship some other god, in addition to Allah. That's blasphemy. Same thing with Christianity and Catholicism. Unlike Buddhism or Shintoism, where there's many gods, those three religions are monopolistic. Fire religion and religion of Ironborn are also monopolistic, while religion of The North, and religion of Valyrians accept existence of many gods.

You are confusing the fire religion with the gods. R'hllor exists, but he/she/it doesn't dictate what those red priests do. There are no rules here that other cultures or people cannot worship R'hllor in a polytheistic cannon. It's not R'hllor that demands monotheism. We already know that other gods exist, like the Stranger of the FM. the Great Other, and whatever. R'hllor seems to be one among many, so there's no reason to believe that he's not part of the pantheon in some other culture. When Mirri Maaz Duur, a follower of the Great Shepherd, does her blood magic spell in GoT, it's a burning heart that claims Rhaego, indicating R'hllor. There you go. (Once more, Buddhists don't worship gods. Some branches in Buddhism acknowledge  divine entities but they have no power over people. In Shintoism, there's kami, divine entities not necessarily gods. I think you are confusing Buddhism with Hinduism, the oldest polytheistic religion in the world). 

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

that that temple was R'hllor's temple. And thus Fire religion is as old as Long Night, at least 8.000 years old. While Valyrians appeared only 5.000 year ago. Thus R'hllor wasn't their god. And later, when they were expanding their control over Essos and its population, they sort of accepted all gods,

Obviously, R'hllor is real. That means he was not made up by a bunch of people. So anyone or any group can acknowledge him and worship him. Just because Valyrians came later that doesn't mean they don't worship him. Also, Valyrian empire rose about that long ago. Valyrian people have existed as long as people have, obviously. 

On another note, we don't know yet what the gods of this world really are. They are called gods, they apparently have immense power, but what are they? How are they connected to magic, life, death, WW, ice and fire? So I wouldn't characterize these religions strictly in terms of religions of the real world. 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

What's the point of lying? If what he claims, he has read there, won't happen, then what?

Academic prestige. He is a maester in Oldtown, which is like being a professor at Oxford or Cambridge. 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

Same event, Second Long Night, seen by many prophets, in different countries, in different times, including Daenys in Valyria 400+ years ago, by red priests in Asshai and Volantis 5.000 years ago, by the Children in Westeros/woods witch/Ghost of High Heart less than 50 years ago (sometime prior 259).

I think this is the point I was originally trying to make. That PTWP is part of an ancient prophesy that got translated or mis-translated over and over again. 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

From weirwood network,

But there are no weirwoods on Dragonstone, where Daenys was. 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

Valyrian language they studied as their SECOND language, then that's how was made that misinterpretation in translation.

Because for Rhaegar, Valyrian was his second language, not first. Same with maester Aemon.

They still consider High Valyrian to be their native tongue, and they speak it well. The Targs would be bilingual, like Dany in GoT who speaks Common and Valyrian. All this shows that the translator was not a Targ, but probably some Westerosi maester. I don't think the original prophesy is still available because otherwise someone would have noticed the difference. Aemon is speculating that the Prince is a Princess because he thinks the prophesy is about Dany. If this was a recently recorded prophesy, these confusions wouldn't exist. The prophesy is old, muddled, and possibly mistranslated as well. 

 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, Quaithe was there with her, and she helped her to deliver the baby. This my idea is based on what Dany experienced in that chapter. Also it seems that Dany had internal bleeding, so she needed medical help. And thus Mirri summoned there her teacher, maester Marwyn, and he came there thru glass candle.

The glass candles don't start burning until Book 5. It's also not Harry Potter and sorcerers can't just apparate and be somewhere. If MMZ "summoned" Marwyn, why didn't he save her life? Dany miscarries at the end of GoT. MMZ curses her baby and it comes out deformed. 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

Or it was read by Targaryens, that lived in Westeros for the last 400 years

What are you talking about? Targs escaped to Dragonstone about 300 years ago. Why are you assuming Valyrian would be their second language? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, bent branch said:

Aemon doesn't go into a dissertation on translating from whatever language into whatever language. He talks directly about the nature of dragons. This indicates that when it was translated, like you, they assumed that the prophecy was about some sort of nobility. Thus they took the original word, dragon, and mistranslated it as prince. Aemon says that when you return to the original word, dragon, then no assumption is being made as to the sex of the individual in the prophecy.

I'm trying to say that the prince/dragon was not a word but a concept. If the original source used the word dragon, as in the animal, then the translator would have just retained the world. Like the "stallion that mounts the world," it would be the "dragon that was promised." But that's not what happens here. Aemon thinks "prince" was mistranslated from a genderless dragon title. That doesn't necessarily mean the original term used was "dragon," as in the Valyrian word for the animal dragon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I'm trying to say that the prince/dragon was not a word but a concept. If the original source used the word dragon, as in the animal, then the translator would have just retained the world. Like the "stallion that mounts the world," it would be the "dragon that was promised." But that's not what happens here. Aemon thinks "prince" was mistranslated from a genderless dragon title. That doesn't necessarily mean the original term used was "dragon," as in the Valyrian word for the animal dragon. 

I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that you have it backwards. Aemon says that it was the translators that improperly introduced the concept of "prince" for dragon. The original word was dragon. If you go back a read it again, you can see that Aemon is talking about dragons switching out their genitalia. First they are male and then they are female and vice versa. I can assure you it was not the dragonlords that were doing this. So yes, the original word was dragon as in the animal. It is true the dragons are probably symbolic for something. What that something could be has changed since the prophecy was originally made. A thousand years ago a dragon could be a dragon or one of the dragonlords. Now the group of people who could be considered "dragons" is almost as small as the group of actual dragons.

And as the OP asks, could this dragon be the dragon with three heads. I say, yes it could.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:
19 hours ago, Megorova said:

From weirwood network,

But there are no weirwoods on Dragonstone, where Daenys was. 

Are you serious? <_<

Daenys was dragonblood. She had a gift of foresign thru her blood. Same as Shiera Seastar, Daemon II Blackfyre, Daeron brother of Aegon V, Daenerys Targaryen, Jon Snow, and others.

So it doesn't matter that there was no weirwoods on Dragonstone, where Daenys was. Because her gift had NOTHING TO DO WITH WEIRWOOD.

Children know things from weirwood network. Because for those trees, time is a circle, so they know everything - past, present and future. But Children don't have access to all of that information. Because to get access to it, they need someone to be connected to a tree, like Bloodraven. There are other Children, that are also connected to the weirwood network, but they are already too far gone into a tree, same as Bloodraven, too weak. They sort of like in a coma, and those trees are feeding on their life force. So they need to give to the network a fresh blood, new and strong greenseer, that has special blood, like Bran.

And red priests see their prophecies in a flames, visions that are sent to them by R'hllor.

Daenys, the Children and red priests, have different unconnected sources of information. Like TV, the Web, and newspapers.

Daenys saw visions, like on TV. Children connect to the World Wide Web. And priests see something in flames, but often they are unable to correctly interpret what they saw. And each priest have his/her own interpretation, same as reporters from different newspapers, that can give to the readers information about the same event, under totally different dressing.

 

Doesn't matter if there's no weirwood trees now somewhere. If they were growing at certain place at certain time, then that tree knew everything that was, is, and will be. And that tree was giving information to the central core. So even if now those trees are gone, information that they knew, is still in the Network. Furthermore, the Network can see not only thru trees, but also thru ravens/crows. Where there's no trees, then there the birds will cover holes in the Network. And thus the Network is an omniscient being, that knows everything. Though it doesn't mean that Children can get access to all of that information. Because even if someone is connected to weirwood, human brain works different than consciousness of those trees, they even feel flow of time totally different. So even connected person, still can't know everything, and understant everything that the Network knows.

3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

They still consider High Valyrian to be their native tongue, and they speak it well. The Targs would be bilingual, like Dany in GoT who speaks Common and Valyrian.

But people all around them were speaking Common Tongue, not Valyrian. Their wetnurses, nannies, servants, ladys-in-waiting, guards, people from the kitchen, etc. And I don't think that Rhaella, and before her Dyanna Dayne, and before her Mariah Martell, were speaking to their little children in High Valyrian. 

So first, naturally, from their environment, since they were newborn babies, they heard and learned to speak Common Tongue, only later Valyrian language. So Valyrian is their second.

Children in families of migrants, if they don't live isolated, if they attend daycare, and kindergarded, and school, and communicate with their neighbors and other people around them, then they learn first, language of country in which they live now, and only later language of their parents, that came from another country.

Targaryens migrated to Westeros more than 400 years ago, and since then they lived amongst people that were speaking Common Tongue, so I'm 100% sure that in Targaryen court, all people, including Targaryens themself, were speaking Common Tongue and not Valyrian. And there's a diffrence between perfectly knowing certain language, and this language being first/native.

3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

The glass candles don't start burning until Book 5.

Wrong.

All of them begin working in book 5, but even before that, some of them did worked.

 

ACOK, chapter 63: "It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years."

AFFC, Prologue:

"Armen looked down his nose at Lazy Leo. He had the perfect nose for it, long and thin and pointed. “Archmaester Marwyn believes in many curious things,” he said, “but he has no more proof of dragons than Mollander. Just more sailors’ stories.”

“You’re wrong,” said Leo. “There is a glass candle burning in the Mage’s chambers.

A hush fell over the torchlit terrace. Armen sighed and shook his head. Mollander began to laugh. The Sphinx studied Leo with his big black eyes. Roone looked lost.

Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

“What are these glass candles?” asked Roone.

Armen the Acolyte cleared his throat. “The night before an acolyte says his vows, he must stand a vigil in the vault. No lantern is permitted him, no torch, no lamp, no taper . . . only a candle of obsidian. He must spend the night in darkness, unless he can light that candle. Some will try. The foolish and the stubborn, those who have made a study of these so-called higher mysteries. Often they cut their fingers, for the ridges on the candles are said to be as sharp as razors. Then, with bloody hands, they must wait upon the dawn, brooding on their failure. Wiser men simply go to sleep, or spend their night in prayer, but every year there are always a few who must try.”

“Yes.” Pate had heard the same stories. “But what’s the use of a candle that casts no light?”

“It is a lesson,” Armen said, “the last lesson we must learn before we don our maester’s chains. The glass candle is meant to represent truth and learning, rare and beautiful and fragile things. It is made in the shape of a candle to remind us that a maester must cast light wherever he serves, and it is sharp to remind us that knowledge can be dangerous. Wise men may grow arrogant in their wisdom, but a maester must always remain humble. The glass candle reminds us of that as well. Even after he has said his vow and donned his chain and gone forth to serve, a maester will think back on the darkness of his vigil and remember how nothing that he did could make the candle burn . . . for even with knowledge, some things are not possible.”

Lazy Leo burst out laughing. “Not possible for you, you mean. I saw the candle burning with my own eyes.

“You saw some candle burning, I don’t doubt,” said Armen. “A candle of black wax, perhaps.”

I know what I saw. The light was queer and bright, much brighter than any beeswax or tallow candle. It cast strange shadows and the flame never flickered, not even when a draft blew through the open door behind me.” "

3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

It's also not Harry Potter and sorcerers can't just apparate and be somewhere.

And they don't. Though by using glass candle, their projections can go anywhere.

ASOS, Dany III:

"She woke suddenly in the darkness of her cabin, still flush with triumph. Balerion seemed to wake with her, and she heard the faint creak of wood, water lapping against the hull, a footfall on the deck above her head. And something else.

Someone was in the cabin with her.

“Irri? Jhiqui? Where are you?” Her handmaids did not respond. It was too black to see, but she could hear them breathing. “Jorah, is that you?”

“They sleep,” a woman said. “They all sleep.” The voice was very close. “Even dragons must sleep.”

She is standing over me. “Who’s there?” Dany peered into the darkness. She thought she could see a shadow, the faintest outline of a shape. “What do you want of me?”

“Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

Quaithe?” Dany sprung from the bed and threw open the door. Pale yellow lantern light flooded the cabin, and Irri and Jhiqui sat up sleepily. “Khaleesi?” murmured Jhiqui, rubbing her eyes. Viserion woke and opened his jaws, and a puff of flame brightened even the darkest corners. There was no sign of a woman in a red lacquer mask."

AGOT, Dany IX:

"Ser Jorah’s face was drawn and sorrowful. “Rhaegar was the last dragon,” he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. “The last dragon,” he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone."

ADWD, Dany II:

"She closed her eyes and floated.

A soft rustle made her open them again. She sat up with a soft splash. “Missandei?” she called. “Irri? Jhiqui?”

“They sleep,” came the answer.

A woman stood under the persimmon tree, clad in a hooded robe that brushed the grass. Beneath the hood, her face seemed hard and shiny. She is wearing a mask, Dany knew, a wooden mask finished in dark red lacquer. “Quaithe? Am I dreaming?” She pinched her ear and winced at the pain. “I dreamt of you on Balerion, when first we came to Astapor.”

You did not dream. Then or now.

“What are you doing here? How did you get past my guards?”

I came another way. Your guards never saw me.”

“If I call out, they will kill you.”

They will swear to you that I am not here.

Are you here?”

No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”

“Reznak? Why should I fear him?” Dany rose from the pool. Water trickled down her legs, and gooseflesh covered her arms in the cool night air. “If you have some warning for me, speak plainly. What do you want of me, Quaithe?”

Moonlight shone in the woman’s eyes. “To show you the way.”

“I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow.” She squeezed the water from her silvery hair. “I am half-sick of riddling. In Qarth I was a beggar, but here I am a queen. I command you—”

Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Remember who you are.”

“The blood of the dragon.” But my dragons are roaring in the darkness. “I remember the Undying. Child of three, they called me. Three mounts they promised me, three fires, and three treasons. One for blood and one for gold and one for …”

“Your Grace?” Missandei stood in the door of the queen’s bedchamber, a lantern in her hand. “Who are you talking to?”

Dany glanced back toward the persimmon tree. There was no woman there. No hooded robe, no lacquer mask, no Quaithe.

A shadow. A memory. No one."

 

Maybe I'm wrong, and they have used some other method, and not glass candles, to go there without actually being there. But I think that they use glass candles to "teleport their apparitions/"shadows" ".

AFFC, Sam V:

"The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world."

<- could be that this works like a portal or black hole, thru which a person can go to different place, but not physically, only spiritually. It's not entirely clear whether they can physically affect something, while they are on that side. But seems to me, that they can, because of this: "He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals."

If he warmed hands over the blazier, then it means that he can feel heat, and if he can feel that, then he can feel other things too. And if he can feel what is surrounding his apparition, then it goes both ways, he can also affect what is around him. And thus he can touch, and affect things arround his apparition. Though he probably can't bring anything back to his physical body. By that "he", I mean user of glass candle.

3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

If MMZ "summoned" Marwyn, why didn't he save her life?

Why should he?

And her life was needed to hatch dragons. One life - Drogo, second life - stallion in center of Drogo's funeral pyre (not Drogo's stallion), and third - Mirri's life.

3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:
19 hours ago, Megorova said:

Or it was read by Targaryens, that lived in Westeros for the last 400 years

What are you talking about? Targs escaped to Dragonstone about 300 years ago. Why are you assuming Valyrian would be their second language? 

Daenys predicted the Doom of Valyria, years before it happened. Targaryen family migrated with their 5 dragons, from Valyria to Dragonstone, 12 years prior the Doom, in 126 BC. That's 426 years ago.

First Lord of Dragonstone was father of Daenys the Dreamer, dragonlord Aenar Targaryen. After him was his son, and husband-brother of Daenys, Gaemon. Then their son Aegon, and after him Aerys, and then Daemion, and Aerion (father of Aegon I and Orys Baratheon). Aegon the Conqueror, was seventh Lord of Dragonstone. 

Targaryens migrated from Dragonstone to King's Landing in 2 BC, 302 years ago. Then they build Aegonfort in King's Landing, and lived there for 37 years, until 35 AC, until Aegon moved his family back to Dragonstone, and ordered to build new castle, that became Red Keep. The castle was completed during reign of Aegon's son, King Maegor.

So all Targaryens after Maegor, lived in King's Landing, and their court, aside from Valyrian Velaryons and Celtigars, were mostly people of Westeros, that spoke Common Tongue.

Aegon V was married with Betha Blackwood. His father Maekar was married with Dyanna Dayne. His grandfather Daeron II was married with Mariah Martell. Three generations of Targaryens in a row, had non-Valyrian mothers. Their children were raised on fairy tales and lullabies in Common Tongue. So for Rhaegar and Viserys, Aerys II and Rhaella, Jaehaerys II and Shaera, maester Aemon and Aegon V and their father Maekar I, their first language was Common Tongue, and Valyrian was their second. Because not only their ancestors, for many generations were living in Westeros, but also their entire court were also locals, that spoke Common Tongue.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Are you serious?

I assumed that you remember the original question. You said that the children know the PTWP prophesy, that you say Daenys foresaw, because they saw it through weirwoods. But there are no weirwoods on Dragonstone, so how did they know about it early on?

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

So even if now those trees are gone, information that they knew, is still in the Network. Furthermore, the Network can see not only thru trees, but also thru ravens/crows. Where there's no trees, then there the birds will cover holes in the Network.

Uh. no. It's the skinchangers that see through animals, not the trees. If the tree is cut down then it stops working, naturally. Dragonstone is a Valyrian outpost located outside the Westerosi continent so there are no records of weirwoods beingthere.

 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

All of them begin working in book 5, but even before that, some of them did worked.

 AFFC happens during the same time period as ADWD because the POVs are split in two. In any case, ACOK happens some time after GoT. As Quaith tells Dany, she is the reason magic is returning to Westeros. The birth of the dragons and the red comet. So there is no way the glass candles were burning before the dragons were born, which was when Dany was cursed. 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Why should he?

And her life was needed to hatch dragons. One life - Drogo, second life - stallion in center of Drogo's funeral pyre (not Drogo's stallion), and third - Mirri's life

Why would Marwyn know or even care about that? The ritual was not foreseen by anyone. Targs knew the dragons would one day return, but they didn't know how. If he shows up because a former student summons him, wouldn't he care to save her from a burning pyre? 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

their first language was Common Tongue, and Valyrian was their second.

They were probably bilingual, as Dany is in the books. She speaks Common and Valyrian, even if she grows up in places these languages are not commonly spoken. She learns it from her brother. In any case, they don't read the PTWP in its original Valyrian. Aemon and the maesters have access only to a translated version, apparently. Even Mel is going on about a Prince. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

In any case, they don't read the PTWP in its original Valyrian. Aemon and the maesters have access only to a translated version, apparently. Even Mel is going on about a Prince. 

There is no evidence that the prophecy was originally in Valyrian. Mel read about the prophecy in ancient texts in Asshai. And, of course, Mel interpreted it as the prince that was promised. Aemon said the prophecy had been being interpreted that way for a thousand years, with countless people doing the interpreting. However, Aemon points out that this interpretation was wrong, because it did not take into account the nature of the animal dragons. The only reason this would have any bearing is if dragon was the wording of the original prophecy in what ever language it was made in. This clue is one of subtlest I have found. Most of the prophecies we have been shown in the book have been of a visual nature. This prophecy was probably also a written description of something that was originally a dream or vision. Therefore, dragon was the original word while prince was the common interpretation of that visual symbol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×