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Does this line confirm that TPTWP is three people?

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9 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I assumed that you remember the original question. You said that the children know the PTWP prophesy, that you say Daenys foresaw, because they saw it through weirwoods. But there are no weirwoods on Dragonstone, so how did they know about it early on?

Did I said so? :blink: Probably I just phrased it incorrectly. What I meant, is that the Children know about upcoming Second Long Night, and probably they also have some sort of pre-planned hero, that is supposed to save the world, and they not necessary call him TPTWP. I wrote before that in Essos the prophecy about Second Long Night was received from R'hllor by red priests, in Valyria Daenys the Dreamer saw it in her vision, and in Westeros (I wrote them all together, even though they got the prophecy from different sources, probably this is the source of our misunderstanding) - the Children and Jenny's woods witch/Ghost of High Heart (I think that Jenny's witch is Rohanne Webber-Lannister).

Targaryens already had a prophecy about TPTWP. And Jenny's witch only added that the Prince will be a descendant of Jaehaerys II. But she probably had a different source of information than the Children. If she is Rohanne Webber, then probably she is using blood magic, same as that witch, that predicted to Cersei about death of her children, and about valonqar.

So there are four different sources of the same prophecy, even though each prophecy is different, and about different people, like Azor Ahai and TPTWP and the Children's Hero, but all of them are about the same upcoming event - Second Long Night.

Those sources are R'hllor, Weirwood Network, dragon blood, and blood magic.

Red priests, the Children, Daenys the Dreamer, Jenny's witch/Ghost of High Heart/maybe Rohanne Webber.

10 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Uh. no. It's the skinchangers that see through animals, not the trees.

But if that skinchanger is connected to Network, then after his death, and even while he is still alive, his soul is getting absorbed by the Network. And also part of skinchanger's soul remains in animals to which he warged. So all those crows around Bloodraven's cave, have in them souls of dead Children, that's why they are sticking to that cave. And bodies of that dead Children are inside that cave, still connected to Weirwood Network, theyr souls were absorbed by trees. So those birds and the Network are connected thru souls of dead Children. So whoever is connected to Weirwood Network, can also see thru those birds.

10 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

AFFC happens during the same time period as ADWD because the POVs are split in two. In any case, ACOK happens some time after GoT. As Quaith tells Dany, she is the reason magic is returning to Westeros. The birth of the dragons and the red comet. So there is no way the glass candles were burning before the dragons were born, which was when Dany was cursed.

She isn't cursed. And also, dragon magic returned even before those eggs hatched, when Dany had that first dream about Drogon. That was months before Drogo's death, even before Dany became pregnant.

10 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Why would Marwyn know or even care about that? The ritual was not foreseen by anyone. Targs knew the dragons would one day return, but they didn't know how. If he shows up because a former student summons him, wouldn't he care to save her from a burning pyre? 

I think that she willingly sacrificed herself. Also Mirri summoned Marwyn for Drogo's blood ritual, he was one of those human shadows that Dany saw. And then, when Jorah carried Dany inside Drogo's tent, maester Marwyn stopped Dany's internal bleeding, and after that he left/vanished. After his departure, Dany for many many hours was giving birth to her child. First childbirth is always long, can last 8-12+ hours, and with each pregnancy the labor becomes faster, like 3-4 hours for second child, less than 1 hour for fifth child, thought it's all individual.

After Dany gave birth to Rhaego, she was unconsciousness for several days. So between Marwyn's departure, and Mirri's death at funeral pyre, passed 5+ days. Probably he didn't even knew what happened afterwards. Didn't knew and didn't cared. Mirri's death was result of her own mistakes. So why should he save her? Furthermore, how can he? He is not a sorcerer, not a warrior. He can use glass candle, and teleport his apparition, though probably what he can physically do, while he is not exactly there, is limited. Thus what he alone can do against 100+ Dothraki, that were around Mirri? Seems that glass candles, or whatever other method Marwyn and Quaithe were using, can't physically teleport the user, only his soul is able to travel thru space. Thus he couldn't have saved her, even if he wanted.

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On 3/15/2018 at 10:26 AM, bent branch said:

There is no evidence that the prophecy was originally in Valyrian.

You are right, this was something that occurred to me too after posting on this thread. I was referring to Valyrian in the original context of the question. It is possible Valyrians themselves translated the prophesy from something else. Perhaps it is from Asshai in some language they speak. Over the years this prophesy could have undergone many translations and interpretations. If it's old, it could also be a legend too, as in the case with Azor Ahai, who is a mythical figure. I think all prophesies begin as visions or dreams, unless it's a sign sent by the gods, like R'hllor with his fire. (Some foretellings in the book are not all dreams or visions. There are signs in the fire Mel sees.)

But in my opinion this most likely refers to Jon, the "Promise me Ned" kid. But he could be the last hero, instead of AA. Aemon is only speculating that a mistranslation may have occurred because he has come to believe that Dany is the PTWP. Dany seems to be a child of a prophesy too but probably not this one.  

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21 hours ago, Megorova said:

What I meant, is that the Children know about upcoming Second Long Night, and probably they also have some sort of pre-planned hero, that is supposed to save the world, and they not necessary call him TPTWP.

A good majority of cultures have prophesies or tellings about the Long Night coming again. It's related to Azhor Ahai, who is known by different names in many cultures, as it is well stated in the books. It's like a well known myth by now. Even the Dothraki refer to it. It's Mel who mixes AA with PTWP. These two could be the same person or two different entities. 

21 hours ago, Megorova said:

But if that skinchanger is connected to Network, then after his death, and even while he is still alive, his soul is getting absorbed by the Network.

What's in the books that makes you say this? 

21 hours ago, Megorova said:

She isn't cursed. And also, dragon magic returned even before those eggs hatched, when Dany had that first dream about Drogon. That was months before Drogo's death, even before Dany became pregnant.

I suppose Dany naturally miscarried then? (not).

Dany has prophetic dreams because she's a descendant of Daenys the Dreamer. Most Targs had this ability, and some of them went crazy bc of it. It's not magic that makes some people see the future in riddles. 

21 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that she willingly sacrificed herself. Also Mirri summoned Marwyn for Drogo's blood ritual, he was one of those human shadows that Dany saw. And then, when Jorah carried Dany inside Drogo's tent, maester Marwyn stopped Dany's internal bleeding, and after that he left/vanished...

What are you talking about? The shadows Dany sees are not of people. We barely know anything about this maester. He shows up in a Dothraki camp in the middle of the Red Waste? Oh come on. 

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50 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

You are right, this was something that occurred to me too after posting on this thread. I was referring to Valyrian in the original context of the question. It is possible Valyrians themselves translated the prophesy from something else. Perhaps it is from Asshai in some language they speak. Over the years this prophesy could have undergone many translations and interpretations. If it's old, it could also be a legend too, as in the case with Azor Ahai, who is a mythical figure. I think all prophesies begin as visions or dreams, unless it's a sign sent by the gods, like R'hllor with his fire. (Some foretellings in the book are not all dreams or visions. There are signs in the fire Mel sees.)

But in my opinion this most likely refers to Jon, the "Promise me Ned" kid. But he could be the last hero, instead of AA. Aemon is only speculating that a mistranslation may have occurred because he has come to believe that Dany is the PTWP. Dany seems to be a child of a prophesy too but probably not this one.  

The Prince that was promised and Azor Ahai are the same prophecies. Peace.

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24 minutes ago, bent branch said:

The Prince that was promised and Azor Ahai are the same prophecies. Peace.

Only Melisandre uses PTWP and AA interchangeably. All others-- Aemon, Marwyn, Rhaegar-- refer to only a prince. There are legends and myths of AA pretty much everywhere but none mention any prince. And we know how wrong Mel can be. There is a possibility that Mel is mixing up two prophesies. 

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24 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Only Melisandre uses PTWP and AA interchangeably. All others-- Aemon, Marwyn, Rhaegar-- refer to only a prince. There are legends and myths of AA pretty much everywhere but none mention any prince. And we know how wrong Mel can be. There is a possibility that Mel is mixing up two prophesies. 

No there really isn't. Aemon also uses the two interchangeably. First there is this from ASOS-Chapter 78 (italics mine):
 

Quote

 

...But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"

"He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."

 

We don't get to hear Aemon's thoughts about what Melisandre said until AFFC-Chapter 35:

Quote

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy ... my brother's dream ... Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis ... Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brother did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little gir, she was how they came by it ... their father's mother ... she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered, so I allowed myself to hope ... perhaps I wanted to ... we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that ... light without heat ... an empty glamor ... the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope.

As you can see, Aemon has no problem with Melisandre calling Stannis Azor Ahai in response to his question about the prince that was promised. Also, if we take an extended look at the quote we were discussing earlier, we can see Aemon is using the phrase the prince that was promised while citing the evidence for Azor Ahai (AFFC-Chapter 35):

Quote

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought ... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my beliefs when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

Here Aemon is saying the prince that was promised, but obviously citing prophecy about Azor Ahai. He really seems to think they are the same.

Also, there is an interview where GRRM is casually using both terms as if they are just two different words for the same thing. I don't know how to find this interview again so I hate to cite it, but it convinced a lot of people that the PTWP and Azor Ahai were the same thing. I know there are people who were still unconvinced even after seeing the interview so I know there is only so far a discussion on this topic can go. I now realize that the arguments I made previously only work if one believes PTWP and Azor Ahai to be the same thing.

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1 hour ago, bent branch said:

No there really isn't. Aemon also uses the two interchangeably. First there is this from ASOS-Chapter 78 (italics mine):
 

We don't get to hear Aemon's thoughts about what Melisandre said until AFFC-Chapter 35:

As you can see, Aemon has no problem with Melisandre calling Stannis Azor Ahai in response to his question about the prince that was promised. Also, if we take an extended look at the quote we were discussing earlier, we can see Aemon is using the phrase the prince that was promised while citing the evidence for Azor Ahai (AFFC-Chapter 35):

Here Aemon is saying the prince that was promised, but obviously citing prophecy about Azor Ahai. He really seems to think they are the same.

Also, there is an interview where GRRM is casually using both terms as if they are just two different words for the same thing. I don't know how to find this interview again so I hate to cite it, but it convinced a lot of people that the PTWP and Azor Ahai were the same thing. I know there are people who were still unconvinced even after seeing the interview so I know there is only so far a discussion on this topic can go. I now realize that the arguments I made previously only work if one believes PTWP and Azor Ahai to be the same thing.

Perhaps we could pin this post and lock it, please? :)

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3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:
On 15.03.2018 at 5:15 PM, Megorova said:

But if that skinchanger is connected to Network, then after his death, and even while he is still alive, his soul is getting absorbed by the Network.

What's in the books that makes you say this? 

Whoever is connected to Network, doesn't matter whether that person is a skinchanger or not, his/her soul is absorbed by the Network. Bloodraven is not skinchanger, nevertheless his soul is getting absorbed by trees. Part of soul remain inside warged animals, and part is getting absorbed by trees. Thus those animals and trees are connected thru those shared souls.

All quotes are from ADWD.

Quote

“Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember.” His voice was so soft that Bran had to strain to hear.

Most of him has gone into the tree,” explained the singer Meera called Leaf. “He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know.”

“What will I know?” Bran asked the Reeds afterward, when they came with torches burning brightly in their hand, to carry him back to a small chamber off the big cavern where the singers had made beds for them to sleep. “What do the trees remember?

“The secrets of the old gods,” said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes. “Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone.”

“So will you,” said Meera. That made Bran sad. What if I don’t want to remain when you are gone? he almost asked, but he swallowed the words unspoken. He was almost a man grown, and he did not want Meera to think he was some weepy babe. “Maybe you could be greenseers too,” he said instead.

“No, Bran.” Now Meera sounded sad. “It is given to a few to drink of that green fountain whilst still in mortal flesh, to hear the whisperings of the leaves and see as the trees see, as the gods see,” said Jojen.

Quote

Then he realized he was not alone. “Someone else was in the raven,” he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. “Some girl. I felt her.”

“A woman, of those who sing the song of earth,” his teacher said. “Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy’s flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you.”

Do all the birds have singers in them?

All,” Lord Brynden said. “It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin.”

Quote

It was a weirwood ancient and colossal, ten times the size of the one in the Stone Garden at Casterly Rock. This tree was bare and dead, though.

“The Brackens poisoned it,” said his host. “For a thousand years it has not shown a leaf. In another thousand it will have turned to stone, the maesters say. Weirwoods never rot.”

“And the ravens?” asked Jaime. “Where are they?”

“They come at dusk and roost all night. Hundreds of them. They cover the tree like black leaves, every limb and every branch. They have been coming for thousands of years. How or why, no man can say, yet the tree draws them every night.

Quote

“I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children,” Bran said. “The singers, I mean.”

“In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers.

Bran did not understand, so he asked the Reeds. “Do you like to read books, Bran?” Jojen asked him.

“Some books. I like the fighting stories. My sister Sansa likes the kissing stories, but those are stupid.”

“A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies,” said Jojen. “The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood.”

 

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"The dragon has three heads" is a nod to the Targaryen symbol which in turn is a nod to the cyclical timeline the story is built on. The world is in a limbo where the same things - slightly changed - keep happening over and over again. The three dragons are the three Targaryens who keep saving their House from extinction. After the Doom we had Aegon and his three sisters who united the warring kingdoms of Westeros and rebuilt their House. Now 300 years later we have yet again 3 dragons (Dany, Jon and their son) who unite the warring kingdoms and rebuild their dynasty.

 

The story ends with Jon and Dany "drinking from the cup of ice", in other words becoming the new Night King and Queen. Their son inherits the throne. All of Dany's men and dragons will die fighting the current Night King (Valar Morghulis) and by becoming the Night Queen she "goes forward by going back" aka marries the Night King. Khal Drogo was a plot tool foreshadowing her marriage to the NK and Nissa Nissa is a nod to her giving birth to her son. The prince that was promised is the son of Dany and Jon who will rebuild his House with the help of Sansa, Gendry and Jaime. The three Houses that tore House Targ down join forces to rebuild it. Jaime gets his redemption arc, Sansa gets to be a queen for a while and Gendry the king. Also, Tyrion is Daenerys' last betrayal and the final push she needs to accept her role as the Night Queen. Tyrion is the last villain of House Targaryen and of the balance of ice and fire.

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35 minutes ago, MakeThemBurn said:

The story ends with Jon and Dany "drinking from the cup of ice", in other words becoming the new Night King and Queen. Their son inherits the throne. All of Dany's men and dragons will die fighting the current Night King (Valar Morghulis) and by becoming the Night Queen she "goes forward by going back" aka marries the Night King. Khal Drogo was a plot tool foreshadowing her marriage to the NK and Nissa Nissa is a nod to her giving birth to her son. The prince that was promised is the son of Dany and Jon who will rebuild his House with the help of Sansa, Gendry and Jaime.

You're forgetting that Dany already has a son - Rhaego. So if Dany and Jon will have a child, then it will be a girl, Lyanna Targaryen. And she will be Queen of 7K. Until she will turn 16, Tyrion will be her Hand and Regent. And then she will marry with Rhaego, her half-brother. Maybe :)

Also first Dany will drink from the cup of ice, and second from the cup of fire. So it's not a foreshadowing of her becoming a Night's Queen. Could be that she will die, but then she will be revived by fire, that second cup.

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On 3/16/2018 at 8:37 PM, bent branch said:

As you can see, Aemon has no problem with Melisandre calling Stannis Azor Ahai in...

The Azhor Ahai prophesy/legend would be well known. In the quote you showed he says the sword is wrong, it's got a glamour on it after Mel says Stannis has Lightbringer. So he's directly referring to that. The second quote is I think the only time Aemon refers to the PTWP prophesy. Mel clearly uses the two terms interchangeably. Aemon doesn't, not really. So far, Mel is the only one to refer to both PTWP and AA as the same person explicitly.

On 3/16/2018 at 8:37 PM, bent branch said:

Also, there is an interview where GRRM is casually using both terms as if they are just two different words for the same thing. I don't know how to find this interview again so I hate to cite it, but it convinced a lot of people that the PTWP and Azor Ahai were the same thing. I know there are people who were still unconvinced even after seeing the interview so I know there is only so far a discussion on this topic can go. I now realize that the arguments I made previously only work if one believes PTWP and Azor Ahai to be the same thing.

Yeah, GRRM perhaps intends AA and PTWP to be the same person. Maybe it's a mistake on his part that he only has just one character using the terms interchangeably. It may change in the future books. Or maybe we are reading too much into it. In TWOIAF, however, PTWP is not used as an alternative name for AA:

Quote

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world  ... 

 

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17 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

The Azhor Ahai prophesy/legend would be well known. In the quote you showed he says the sword is wrong, it's got a glamour on it after Mel says Stannis has Lightbringer. So he's directly referring to that. The second quote is I think the only time Aemon refers to the PTWP prophesy. Mel clearly uses the two terms interchangeably. Aemon doesn't, not really. So far, Mel is the only one to refer to both PTWP and AA as the same person explicitly.

Yeah, GRRM perhaps intends AA and PTWP to be the same person. Maybe it's a mistake on his part that he only has just one character using the terms interchangeably. It may change in the future books. Or maybe we are reading too much into it. In TWOIAF, however, PTWP is not used as an alternative name for AA:

 

It was easier to find the interview where GRRM makes it clear that AA and the PTWP are the same thing than I thought. Go to the SSM's and look under April 2012. This is why you will find a lot of resistance to the idea that AA and the PTWP are two different people. Before this interview the question was more debated.

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The old idea asked whether three different characters might play the distinguishable roles of the last hero, the prince that was promised, and Azor Ahai. But since we now understand the the promised prince is Azor Ahai come again, we know that can't be right.

Doesn't the OP ask a different question? Doesn't the OP suggest that three characters are needed to fulfill all the attributes of the promised prince/Azor Ahai--sort of like the Holy Trinity in the real world, the seven aspects of the god of the seven in ASOIAF, or the champion eternal in Moorcock's multiverse? 

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