Quick question for R+L=J believers.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

51 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

ACoK was before ASoS, and there is no second volume for AFfC.

I'm sure they're aware of that but confused AFFC with ASOS, which did come in two volumes at one point. Seeing as thats the book directly prior to AFFC. I'm also sure they're aware that ACOK is part of the series as well. But so theres nomore confusion, prior to putting out a 5 book set, and putting ASOS into one book, they came as 7 books, and ASOS were split into two volumes, volume one being "Steel and Snow" and volume two "Blood & Gold".

[kissdbyfire]

23 hours ago, must needs the rushes said:

I imagine that this has been addressed elsewhere, but a site search and skims of relevant threads didn't reveal where, and I wonder what's your interpretation of this passage:

 

"Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

 

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice."

 

This strikes me as stronger confirmation of N+A=J than all indications of R+L=J combined, so I'm eager to learn why you think that Ned meant something else by it.

Why? It's a rumour, heard by women who work in the castle, from their husbands, the men who went south with Ned to fight in the rebellion. It's an obvious red herring imo.

Somehow people knew Ned fought w/ Arthur Dayne one on one, and that Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn. Everyone and their dogs were present at the Tourney at Harrenhal, where Ned danced w/ Ashara Dayne, tall and beautiful etc etc. It's an easy connection to make, especially when the reader witnesses Cat asking Ned about Ashara being Jon's mum [specifically], and Ned having he worst reaction Cat's ever seen. Add to that how Meera tells Bran the story of the Harrenhal Tourney (quote below), and bingo! N+A=J. The. Reddest. Of. All. Herrings.

ASoS, Bran 

“The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . .

but what's really interesting in this passage is what Meera says next:

 but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.”

So, yeah. There are no [real] clues pointing to N+A=J. But gimme a theory w/ a child by Brandon and Ashara, and I'm on-board! 

[Light a wight tonight]

On 3/8/2018 at 4:29 PM, must needs the rushes said:

"Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

This is another example of a lapse in judgement by Cat. The gossip is third-hand; the maids got it from the soldiers who were not at the scene, so they heard it from someone else who wasn't there. 

If you accept that R+L=J, and knowing that Robert wanted all the Targs dead, Jon would be in mortal danger from Robert, and the fewer people who knew of Jon's real ancestry the fewer chances of the secret getting out. Catelyn was simply excluded from the very small circle those who knew (probably just Ned, Benjen, and Howland Reed).

[must needs the rushes]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Look, I get that you do not agree to RLJ, and that’s fine, but what gets me is when people try to essentially edit out book text because it threatens their preference. I’m not here to attempt to change your mind, but this can’t be used as “evidence” because it is literally filled with rumor and is not a complete picture of the situation. 

So, your criticism is that I only quoted what seemed relevant? I didn't exactly have room to include the whole series of books. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, must needs the rushes said:

So, your criticism is that I only quoted what seemed relevant?

Well, when you only quote what “seems” relevant, and then someone gives the bigger picture, and then you start to get aggressive rather than discuss, this doesn’t point to good things. 

1 minute ago, must needs the rushes said:

 

I didn't exactly have room to include the whole series of books. 

That is sorta the point. This one paragraph that so many NAJ believers try to quote as proof is such a small part of the bigger story that they are missing the actual bigger story. 

Again, red herring circus. 

[must needs the rushes]

23 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Well, when you only quote what “seems” relevant, and then someone gives the bigger picture, and then you start to get aggressive rather than discuss, this doesn’t point to good things.

When did I get aggressive? You expanded the picture by a few sentences and acted as though "That cut deep" was the most important takeaway, and I pointed out that the banishment of Ashara Dayne's name as far more to the crux of the issue, because what we found is that, yes, she asked about Jon, and Ned answered Ashara by banishing her name from his realm.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, must needs the rushes said:

When did I get aggressive? You expanded the picture by a few sentences and acted as though "That cut deep" was the most important takeaway, and I pointed out that the banishment of Ashara Dayne's name as far more to the crux of the issue, because what we found is that, yes, she asked about Jon, and Ned answered Ashara. 

No, what you were first saying is that the first thoughts of Jon were totally separate from the rest. That is why I pointed out the connection to show that Jon was still part of the questioning, not Ashara not only Ashara. 

Sorry, but this conversation makes no sense because you seem to still be holding to rumors as fact. I do not.

Again, if this is your theory, fine. I do not think what the author has laid down in the bigger picture beyond one paragraph supports this. But that is just me. 

[Ygrain]

18 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

From Cat's POV, she was asking about Ashara. 

From Ned's POV, Cat was prying after Jon's origins. Notice Ned said "Never ask me about Jon," and not "Never ask me about Ashara". Cat knowing Jon's origins (assuming R+L=J) puts Jon, and Ned and the rest of his family, in danger. It has the possibility of starting another civil war, similar to Robert's Rebellion. 

Nice first post!

I might add that Ned definitely wouldn't want Ashara's name to be dragged into some dishonoring speculations, partly due to her tragic death, as well as the below:

8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

But gimme a theory w/ a child by Brandon and Ashara, and I'm on-board! 

Seconded.

However, I do consider the passage in question highly relevant for another reason: "he is my blood". That's not the way parents usually refer to their child, the natural thing is to say "he's my son/child". To me, this sounds like a slip of a tongue in the situation when Ned was overcome with emotion and his aversion to lying got the better of him, so he blurted the thing closer to the truth than the false cover story.

[Kandrax]

9 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

I'm sure they're aware of that but confused AFFC with ASOS, which did come in two volumes at one point. Seeing as thats the book directly prior to AFFC. I'm also sure they're aware that ACOK is part of the series as well. But so theres nomore confusion, prior to putting out a 5 book set, and putting ASOS into one book, they came as 7 books, and ASOS were split into two volumes, volume one being "Steel and Snow" and volume two "Blood & Gold".

In my country, AFFC is  split in two books.

[Wolf of The Wall]

10 hours ago, Kandrax said:

ACoK was before ASoS, and there is no second volume for AFfC.

Yeah I realized my mistake after you pointed out. But the gist of it, even after this late into the story we still don't know who is the mother for sure.

[must needs the rushes]

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No, what you were first saying is that the first thoughts of Jon were totally separate from the rest. That is why I pointed out the connection to show that Jon was still part of the questioning, not Ashara not only Ashara. 

Sorry, but this conversation makes no sense because you seem to still be holding to rumors as fact. I do not.

Yes, you convinced me that Jon was part of the questioning, but this only strengthens NAJ, in that asking about Ashara and asking Jon's parentage is the same question. It's Ned's reaction that gives credence to the rumors.

[Unacosamedarisa]

20 minutes ago, must needs the rushes said:

Yes, you convinced me that Jon was part of the questioning, but this only strengthens NAJ, in that asking about Ashara and asking Jon's parentage is the same question. It's Ned's reaction that gives credence to the rumors.

Cat is asking about Ashara and Jon, but Ned is hearing only a question about Jon, hence him saying "never ask about Jon". Ned isn't angry about Ashara being spoken about, he's afraid about Cat prying into Jon. 

[Wolf of The Wall]

24 minutes ago, must needs the rushes said:

Yes, you convinced me that Jon was part of the questioning, but this only strengthens NAJ, in that asking about Ashara and asking Jon's parentage is the same question. It's Ned's reaction that gives credence to the rumors.

Would you anwser the question of why would Ned keep Jon's mother a secret if mother is Ashara?

[must needs the rushes]

1 hour ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

Would you anwser the question of why would Ned keep Jon's mother a secret if mother is Ashara?

 

[Wolf of The Wall]

19 minutes ago, must needs the rushes said:

For the sake of the Stark/Tully alliance. 

How would that affect the Alliance. Ned didn't hide the kid. He didn't deny that he had a bastard. He brought the kid with himself and said this child is mine. Ned still married with Catelyn. Catelyn herself admits even an honourable men can forsake his vows during wartime when he is unsure whether is he going to make it out tomorrow.

 

[must needs the rushes]

2 minutes ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

How would that affect the Alliance. Ned didn't hide the kid. He didn't deny that he had a bastard. He brought the kid with himself and said this child is mine. Ned still married with Catelyn. Catelyn herself admits even an honourable men can forsake his vows during wartime when he is unsure whether is he going to make it out tomorrow.

Yeah, I figured out that I hadn't thought that through after posting and tried to edit, but that edit didn't make much sense either, so I'll just say I'm not sure. 

I'm not convinced in any direction of Jon's parentage, so I imagine a lot of this is wishful thinking on my part that GRRM is too good a writer to allow the hidden prince cliche embodied in RLJ.

[Wolf of The Wall]

20 minutes ago, must needs the rushes said:

To protect the secret of Lyanna's actual child, Dany.

Why did you changed your original answer? Dany being Lyanna's daughter is proven to be not working out with the timeline.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

54 minutes ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

Would you anwser the question of why would Ned keep Jon's mother a secret if mother is Ashara?

 

42 minutes ago, must needs the rushes said:

To protect the secret of Lyanna's actual child, Dany.

So, putting the logistics and feasibility of keeping that a secret aside for a moment - why the seven hells would they (whoever they might be) conceal a Targaryen daughter as some another Targaryen daughter?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

18 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes I apologize I misread your post. My bad 

I agree with your take on Ned’s thought process here for sure

Haha, yeah I was just thinking . Eh? but that post was directed at the OP?  

[Rufus Snow]

Interesting topic

I particularly like @Megorova's idea that Ashara might have hooked up with Howland Reed - I need to go back look at some details, but isn't Meera pretty much the same age as Jon, so a possible fruit of that union? Anyway, this idea pulls together some things I've found odd. Firstly, for all that is supposed to have happened - Ned killing Arthur in 'single combat', Ashara 'commiting suicide', yet Edric (Ned) Dayne being named for the Ned, and there obviously being a strong affection between the Daynes and Ned... come on you don't get 'fond' of someone just for returning a sword, if that also entailed the death of its bearer. So that always struck me as a false note. Now with Meg's idea, it makes more sense.

Of course Howland and Ashara crossed paths at Harrenhal, and I personally believe Lyanna was the Mystery Knight (I know others have different views, but I think it's the best bet). Now if Ashara had been pre-promised to someone, then fell for Howland, that might well give a cause for Arthur and Howland to have a beef. And as it was Ned and Howland together that overcame Arthur, and entered the ToJ, it's quite possible they were trying to find both Lyanna and Ashara. And I'm still not clear exactly on HOW the northmen managed to find the ToJ - who led them there and why?

I could accept the idea that Ashara's 'suicide' was a way to allow her to go off with her 'true love' without the dishonour of cancelling a betrothal, and that the family might well have thought Arthur was being bit of an a'hole for standing in her way.

Others take you, Megorova, you've just gone and made my 're-read agenda' that bit more complex

And I totally agree with @The Fattest Leech that GRRM is a prime gossip queen.... time and time and time again he shows us that gossip goes astray from the facts almost as soon as they happened. And pretty much all we know of Ashara back then is gossip, and it's third or fourth hand gossip by the time it reached Winterfell and Cat's delicate ears. For me, N+A=J has no legs at all....;