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Quick question for R+L=J believers.

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13 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I could see a situation where in desperation someone gives Tobho Mott* a chunk of the Iron Throne, so he can try out his knowledge of the spells and the forging techniques to see if he could harness that relict dragonfire imbued into the steel. At the end of the day, he could succeed or he could fail - the point is, the text leaves enough gaps in the evidence that it could go either way. Anyone claiming any certainty that it would either work or not is going beyond the evidence.

Ah. Well... I could see a scenario where the regular steel of the swords that make up the IT and that have been previously subjected to dragonfire being turned into VS later on. By Mott or someone else who knows how to work the spells that are required. 

But that scenario does not equal "the IT is made of VS". :)

 

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45 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ah. Well... I could see a scenario where the regular steel of the swords that make up the IT and that have been previously subjected to dragonfire being turned into VS later on. By Mott or someone else who knows how to work the spells that are required. 

But that scenario does not equal "the IT is made of VS". :)

I have another idea.

The IT isn't made out of Valyrian steel (if it were so simple, there'd be much more VS blades around), but the dragon-treated material could be what they call dragonsteel. Steel + dragon fire -> dragonsteel. And, unbeknownst to anyone, the Iron Throne is made out of thousands of blades capable of killing an Other.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

The conclusion is that the material of the IT could be Valyrian steel due to the application of dragonfire, though that does not make the individual swords within it Valyrian blades as they currently exist. That doesn't rule out the possibility that the material of the IT could be reforged and hammered and folded a thousand times to make new Valyrian blades note new artefacts, not new material.

Megorova's idea that the IT could have been transformed to Valyrian steel does not prove that the individual blades within it are now automatically Valyrian blades, and the gainsayers' assertion that these are not Valyrian blades does not prove that the material is not Valyrian steel. They are not Valyrian blades - but properly reforged they could well become 'Valyrian blades'.

That's exactly what I was saying. That they will dismantle Iron Throne, take it apart, and then use the metal, after they will melt it, to make NEW swords. Not that they will just rip out existing swords out of the Throne, and those swords will be Valyrian blades :rolleyes:

3 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

* I can't remember if Mott is still alive, but if he's dead, substitute a Qohorik swordsmith

I think that it will be Gendry. He is a skilled smith. And it will be sort of symbolic, if he will be the one, who will break apart the Throne, that was usurped by his father, and will make something good out of it - weapons able to protect 7K from the Undead Army.

Edited by Megorova

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I have another idea.

The IT isn't made out of Valyrian steel (if it were so simple, there'd be much more VS blades around), but the dragon-treated material could be what they call dragonsteel. Steel + dragon fire -> dragonsteel. And, unbeknownst to anyone, the Iron Throne is made out of thousands of blades capable of killing an Other.

I like it.

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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On 3/11/2018 at 3:38 AM, Ygrain said:

You mean Benjen, not Brandon, I suppose?

 

On 3/11/2018 at 3:43 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Do you mean Benjen? :D

 

More than likely...

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On 3/10/2018 at 9:18 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Maybe my role today is just to keep teasing you. Sorry please understand I'm doing it in the absolute best of humour not being a knober. 

Lol you’re good. I’m usually not so slow. 

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Posted (edited)

If all it took to make VS was a dragon breathing fire on regular steel then I fee like all the Targaryens that lived before the Dance would have created a bunch of a VS swords for their kin. At the very least every dragon rider would have a VS blade because they would have had the two things needed to make it. That doesn't seem to be the case though.

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

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On 3/11/2018 at 0:56 AM, Ygrain said:

I'm so glad I never watched that one!

The series? I can't believe they made three videos on that topic...could be more by now.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/11/2018 at 8:36 AM, Widow's Watch said:

No, no no. I am so not into this. I'm just not into this whole Howland marriage. I can't wrap my head around it.

I think what we know of Ashara sounds tragic enough without her dying from some swamp fever. It's odd, there are characters I hope are still alive, but she's not one of them. I just feel like her story is complete in the way it has been presented to us, you know.

Fair enough. Though I disagree about her story being complete. When you don't find a body in real life, that's tough luck. When you don't find a body in fiction, it's a plant.

 

On 3/11/2018 at 9:08 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Yeah. The romance between Howland and Ashara was positively sizzling. GRRM left the clues everywhere. Goodness, the two share as many paragraphs, as Olenna Tyrell and Mance Rayder, it must needs mean something! ;)

M+O=AAR. It is known :D

There's a reason Howland Does-not-dance was paying such close attention, remembered all of Ashara's dance partners, told his daughter the story, made sure she remembered it, etc.  Call me crazy (no really, go ahead, I've been called worse) but I don't believe GRRM pulled a crannogmen ex machina on us. 

On 3/11/2018 at 11:38 AM, Faera said:

I don't get this one either or where it is coming from.

When it comes to Howland Reed, I'm pretty sure his wife is just as she is presented in the appendix. She is 'Jyana, of the crannogmen,' and mother to Meera and Jojen. ...

I have heavy doubts of this myself though I'm not against the idea necessarily. Basically, I'm not buying it 'til I know her eye colour or some concrete proof she's wearing a glamour. Otherwise, Tyene's mother is just as plausible to me as her being Ashara.

See above for where it's coming from. No man pays that much attention to a woman in whom he has no interest, remembers it all, and teaches it to his kids. I will be disappointed if it turns out The George invented the whole thing just to have a convenient way to add backstory, when he's so clever about all the other ways he weaves in important details from the past. 

For the record, my half-theory has Howland currently married to Jyana Reed of the crannogs, just like the books say. I've never really believed she was Ashara. Though I'm pretty sure Tyene's mother is out since she's a Septa who lives in the Reach. ;)

On 3/11/2018 at 1:33 PM, Megorova said:

I haven't read that thread, but I'm favouring a theory that H+A = M&J, and END :) (Edric Ned Dayne). 

So could be, that the Reeds had to give away one of their babies to Daynes, not only because Edric didn't looked like cranogman, but also because he was a compensation from Howland to Daynes, for Arthur's death.

Maybe nothing directly, but there are indirect clues.

1. Dragonglass can kill the Others. But what is dragonglass? Just a volcanic glass? How exactly was it created?

"The smallfolk like to say that dragonglass is made by dragons, while Maesters say it comes from the fires of the earth." - I think both versions are correct. What created dragonglass is intense heat, such as fire of volcano, OR dragonfire.

"The Valyrians called obsidian frozen fire and made use of obsidian to make their glass candles."

2. "Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire." - Valyrian steel has remnants of fire left inside the metal.

Thus VS, same as dragonglass, can kill the Others.

I don't agree with you about Ned Dayne. No one in Westeros tries to replace a lost grown man from one house with a baby from another. Ashara is known to have had an older brother who married and produced an heir. There's nothing about it that suggests a mystery.

Dragonglass is obsidian. The text literally says so. Doesn't matter what the Valyrians called it. 

Pale fire does not indicate dragonglass. Dragonglass is black, and Valyrian Steel is dark, smoky looking metal.

None of the quotes you used, even in combination, add up to your conclusion. In fact the quote you used about the hallway lined with ghosts doesn't even go with your next statement.

If you're looking for a sword of pale fire, try Dawn. It's pale as milkglass, as sharp as Valyrian Steel, and older than Valyria itself.  Valyrian Steel may even have come about through trying to replicate Dawn--no text for this, it's something that just occurred to me now.

On 3/11/2018 at 2:00 PM, Ygrain said:

Plus, heating something for an infinite amount of time won't achieve the Damascus structure, anyway.

That's right. It takes about 18 months to make a 6 inch dagger and only part of that time is spent heating the metal. A guy in California cracked that one. I think he's a history professor. Should have saved that link.

On 3/11/2018 at 7:30 PM, Megorova said:

Though there's a reason why Iron Throne needs to be a Valyrian steel. They need to have lots of Valyrian blades, otherwise people of 7K won't survive thru Long Night.

Also the dragons will be useless, if the wights will go into the cities, inside houses and castles.

But I could be wrong.

There's only a reason why it should be IF VS kills the Others. If VS doesn't kill them, then the IT doesn't have to have a lot of anything in it. 

Uh, you burn the wights long before they get near the cities, so they can't go in the houses and castles. You also bar the doors and gates and pull up any drawbridges. It's not like the wights are going to build siege engines. And they can't just hop over the walls because we all know wight men can't jump.

We could all be wrong. That's part of the fun, all this speculating. And it's why I call my series of theories Advanced Crackpottery. :D

Edited by Lady Blizzardborn

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2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

If all it took to make VS was a dragon breathing fire on regular steel then I fee like all the Targaryens that lived before the Dance would have created a bunch of a VS swords for their kin. At the very least every dragon rider would have a VS blade because they would have had the two things needed to make it. That doesn't seem to be the case though.

Not to mention that there is no record of steel in Westeros prior to the Andal invasion. And during Long Night 1.0 (when dragonsteel was used) there was no Valyria and presumably no Valyrian Steel. Whoever invented/discovered VS did not just sit on the recipe for a few thousand years when he could have been making money hand over dragonsnout. Everyone who saw the Last Hero/Azor Ahai Original in action would have wanted a sword like his, and if it were something that could be recreated, they would have recreated it.

Sorry, bit of a leap there but my brain apparently has decided that dragonsteel refers to the Last Hero's Other-defeating weapon. We know AAO supposedly sported the "red sword of heroes" so between that and the maesters/septons/whoever writing the story down bookoo eons later, it could be that the word "steel" crept in because one guy had a sword, while the others used obsidian daggers. Or maybe not. I'm a little on the sleep-deprived side.

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6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There's a reason Howland Does-not-dance was paying such close attention, remembered all of Ashara's dance partners, told his daughter the story, made sure she remembered it, etc.  Call me crazy (no really, go ahead, I've been called worse) but I don't believe GRRM pulled a crannogmen ex machina on us. 

The little crannogman observed everything. For example, one sentence earlier, he noted, for the benefit of the future generations (and the readers), with whom the "storm lord" had a drinking contest. Everything he remembered, including Bob drinking Richard Lonmouth under the table, might be significant storywise, but would it also be significant personally to Howland himself? Generally, I don't see, why.

Therefore, I require something more to consider Howland + Ashara.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Uh, you burn the wights long before they get near the cities, so they can't go in the houses and castles. You also bar the doors and gates and pull up any drawbridges. It's not like the wights are going to build siege engines. And they can't just hop over the walls because we all know wight men can't jump.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, what they can and what they can't do.

You may argue, that this scene from World War Z movie, has nothing to do with ASOIAF books. And then you'll be wrong, because we do have this:

"That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.

“Stand fast,” Jon Snow called. “Throw them back.” He stood atop the Wall, alone. “Flame,” he cried, “feed them flame,” but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. “Snow,” the bird cried."

 

They did got OVER The Wall.

If The Wall didn't stopped them, then bared doors, and gates, and rased drawbridges, also won't stop them.

Edited by Megorova

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9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Fair enough. Though I disagree about her story being complete. When you don't find a body in real life, that's tough luck. When you don't find a body in fiction, it's a plant.

That's perfectly fine. I find it more interesting that out of the people that Ashara danced with, only one (Jon Connington) is still be alive since we don't know who the White Sword was and I'm assuming there's a reason for that since at three of them had nicknames that would have made them easily recognizable. So I think that's purposely vague. 

As far as Ashara goes, I used to think that she was alive because her body was never recovered, but not anymore. Seven years between books will do that. I think I'd be disappointed if she pops up.

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3 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

N+A=J is legit

Please define "legit. I will see it as legit when/if GRRM writes it in the next books… Prior to that words are wind, me nem nesa.

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58 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I find it more interesting that out of the people that Ashara danced with, only one (Jon Connington) is still be alive since we don't know who the White Sword was

Maybe that was Barristan Selmy?

59 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

As far as Ashara goes, I used to think that she was alive because her body was never recovered, but not anymore. Seven years between books will do that. I think I'd be disappointed if she pops up.

Even if she will be Septa Lemore, or Jyana Reed?

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8 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Maybe that was Barristan Selmy?

He's the only Kingsguard from Harrenhall still alive. I'm not counting Jaime because he was either not sworn in yet or already traveling back to King's Landing. 

I have been wondering if there is come kind of connection between the four men she danced with that we don't know of yet.

10 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Even if she will be Septa Lemore, or Jyana Reed?

I'm not actively rooting for her to be dead, but yeah, I would be disappointed. I'd be more into her being Septa Lemore than Jyana Reed (this speculation boggles the mind and makes no sense whatsoever). I think Ashara's story is tragic and her turning up alive takes away from that. But what do I know.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Even if she will be Septa Lemore, or Jyana Reed?

Even more so. To make a huge deal of Ashara's special eyes, only to completely avoid the reference in Lemore's description would be a huge letdown for me, and as for Jyanna, I see zero buildup for such a reveal (which easily could have been there by giving Meera or Jojen some subtle trait leading to Ashara).

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 To make a huge deal of Ashara's special eyes, only to completely avoid the reference in Lemore's description would be a huge letdown for me, and as for Jyanna, I see zero buildup for such a reveal (which easily could have been there by giving Meera or Jojen some subtle trait leading to Ashara).

This! B)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Even more so. To make a huge deal of Ashara's special eyes, only to completely avoid the reference in Lemore's description would be a huge letdown for me, and as for Jyanna, I see zero buildup for such a reveal (which easily could have been there by giving Meera or Jojen some subtle trait leading to Ashara).

That's why I think that Edric Ned Dayne, is third child of Howland Reed and his wife Jyana Reed/Ashara Dayne. We don't know name of Edric's father and mother.

My theory is that Wylla came with Ashara to the Tower of Joy. And after Lyanna's death, she went with little Jon to Winterfell. She was that wet nurse, that was there, when Cat arrived to her husband's castle. And a few years later, when Ashara/Jyana gave birth to Meera, Jojen, and then Edric, they summoned Wylla from Winterfell. She took Edric, and brought him to Starfall. And names of his parents aren't known, because there was no additional Dayne Lord, second brother of Ashara and Arthur. Two out of three children, look like their father, and only Edric looks like his mom's relatives Daynes, Stony Dornishmen.

If Meera or Jojen had violet eyes, then it would have been too obvious, who their mother is. Because their father was at the Tower of Joy, where Arthur Dayne died, and someone has brought there a wet nurse for Lyanna's unborn baby. Edric claims that he and Jon are milk brothers. Probably his wet nurse Wylla told him so. But he misunderstood her, and thought that what she said means, that Jon is her son. While actually Jon was just another baby, same as Edric, whom she was breasfeeding, and he wasn't her own child.

About Ashara's looks we know that she had dark hair and violet eyes. Dark hair could be both - black or brown. Meera has brown hair, and Jojen's hair color wasn't described. So even if Ashara's hair was black, it's possible that Jojen's hair is also black, and thus he inherited his mother's hair color.

Also about Septa Lemore, we only know that her hair is brown, and her eye color wasn't given, probably intentionally, not to make things too obvious. But if Lemore is Ashara, then it will explain why little Aegon was given to her. Because she was Elia's lady-in-waiting. And during Tournament at Harrenhal, Ashara was dancing with Jon Connington, so he knew her. And thus when Varys and Illyrio aproached JonCon with their story, and five years old boy, Jon believed them, because together with the boy came Ashara Dayne.

Though for various reasons I prefer version where Ashara Dayne is Jyana Reed, rather than the one where she is Septa Lemore. Because I think that Septa Lemore could be fAegon's mother. Lady Jeyne Swann. And his father is/could be Barristan Selmy. And Barristan is son of Quaithe/Shiera Seastar, and his father is either Bloodraven, Bittersteel or Aenys Blackfyre. Yes, yes, this all is very unlikely :rolleyes: but if this theories are right, then next books will be much more interesting, than the version without any sudden revelations and reappearance of characters from the past. Unlikely version, but still possible :)

Edited by Megorova

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