Quick question for R+L=J believers.

[House Beaudreau]

On 3/8/2018 at 5:29 PM, must needs the rushes said:

This strikes me as stronger confirmation of N+A=J than all indications of R+L=J combined, so I'm eager to learn why you think that Ned meant something else by it.

yep. 

[Cas Stark]

Ned being Jon's father has no narrative purpose.  He already sees, believes and loves Ned as a father, so Ned + anyone won't  change anything for him.  Finding out Ned Stark was not his father, now we've got something going dramatically and for character development.  Jon as the son of Ned and Ashara, who cares?  What does that bring to the story?  Nothing.  Yeah, sure, Jon Snow is the secret magical prince that was promised is the tropiest trope out there...but that's what the story is going to be.  Fire and Ice. Which heritage will your honor, Stark or Targaryen or both or neither.

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I stand by what I said earlier. Sorry, but none of the quotes you provided do anything to change my mind. There's still no evidence nor hint that I can see. We will have to wait and see what happens in Winds.

Ditto. The quotes show what we already know - that someone else was at ToJ with Ned, that Wylla claims to be Jon's mother and that there was a wetnurse at Winterfell. There is a logical assumption that the extra person at ToJ was a wetnurse (the baby had to be fed somehow), it can be deduced that Wylla was most likely seen with Jon at Starfall (why else claim she was his mother), but that's it - no connection to Winterfell. It could be argued that the reason why Ned doesn't use the Wylla cover story is that she is the wetnurse, but it is not the only possible explanation - for instance, giving people a name would only further the speculation who she was, how he met her and what not (plus, his soldiers would know almost for a fact that no such person was around during the campaign), and if the Starfall connection ever surfaced, people could start making undesirable connections. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 10/03/2018 at 11:39 PM, Megorova said:

snip

Dragons are creations of R'hllor

snip.

Say what now? 

[Rufus Snow]

21 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Not really. Unlike on this forum, in the books they're barely ever mentioned. Dayne is more or less tied with zo Loraq.

Words should be weighed, not counted.

How many zo Loraqs were Rhaegar's best friend? How many zo Loraqs served in Aerys' kingsguard? How many zo Loraqs bear storied swords with a heritage running back to the Age of Heroes, with a legend rich in resonances and imagery suggestive of the Dawn war? How many zo Loraqs run with the Brotherhood Without Banners? How many zo Loraqs are even rumoured to be mother of Ned Stark's bastard? How many zo Loraqs are plotting to overthrow the king on the Iron Throne in favour of his sister? Which zo Loraq is it that Jaime Lannister was so desperate to become? Which zo Loraq is the best swordsman the realm has ever known? Which zo Loraq is called the most dangerous man in any of the Seven Kingdoms? Which zo Loraq haunts the dreams of any of the major characters in the tale?

The Daynes might get few mentions, that doesn't make them unimportant in how the story unfolds. They punch far above their word count.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

3 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Words should be weighed, not counted.

How many zo Loraqs were Rhaegar's best friend? How many zo Loraqs served in Aerys' kingsguard? How many zo Loraqs bear storied swords with a heritage running back to the Age of Heroes, with a legend rich in resonances and imagery suggestive of the Dawn war? How many zo Loraqs run with the Brotherhood Without Banners? How many zo Loraqs are even rumoured to be mother of Ned Stark's bastard? How many zo Loraqs are plotting to overthrow the king on the Iron Throne in favour of his sister? Which zo Loraq is it that Jaime Lannister was so desperate to become? Which zo Loraq is the best swordsman the realm has ever known? Which zo Loraq is called the most dangerous man in any of the Seven Kingdoms? Which zo Loraq haunts the dreams of any of the major characters in the tale?

The Daynes might get few mentions, that doesn't make them unimportant in how the story unfolds. They punch far above their word count.

Actually, no, they don't.

It's very simple, really: the important stuff is what the author writes about, the unimportant stuff is what the author doesn't write about. And he writes very little of House Dayne: all the mentions you so meticulously collected amount to sixty-odd mentions on three thousand pages. Which makes them merely background. Colorful, to be sure, but still background. Just like all those Corbrays, Mallisters, Glovers, etc. who've left their footprints all over the story, but, at the end of the day, are merely supporting characters. If not glorified extras.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 13/03/2018 at 2:10 PM, Widow's Watch said:

As far as Ashara goes, I used to think that she was alive because her body was never recovered, but not anymore. Seven years between books will do that. I think I'd be disappointed if she pops up.

I honestly think her story is told now and that she is unlikely to show up. 

I hashed the old N+A=J palaver out on another forum last week with someone and came to the conclusion she's off page and done. I'll quote my post from there on it. 

Quote

I think her plot is wrapped up and I don't think she gets more mysterious with every mention. But rather less so. The conclusion is that we find out through Barristan that she never shagged Ned but in fact it was Brandon. ergo she can not be Jon'smother. We first hear about her via Cat, and she is set up as mysterious, beautiful, and tragic. And possibly Jon's mother and Ned's lover. We get that idea reinforced by Cersei, but both these women do not have primary information; neither was at Harrenhall and neither got to speak to Ashara post Harrenhall. Cat was in Riverrun, Cersei was at CR. The next we hear is from Ned Dayne who gives us a hint - she isn't Jon's mum. He says Wylla is, but this story is third or fourth hand and garbled as fuck. It makes no sense, a man doesn't fall in love with one woman and shag her houses servant; Plus when did he even get the opportunity? unless he's a wanker. Ned was not that kind of man. We can deduce from the info we have thus far that the timeline is all wrong too as in order to be Jon's mum she would have had to travel to the riverlands region with no way of asking Ned where he was, during a war, found Ned, who was on campaign; moving around at a moments notice in order to fight the opposing army. Next we work out that the child she conceived at Harrenhall would be much older than Jon, this is info drop is given when Arya discusses Ned Dayne's claims with Harwin, who points out that the tourney took place well before Ned was married to her mother. We can add that to the information that Robb was conceived on their wedding night and Cat can't tell which babe is the elder when she meets Jon at WF. To conclude no way was Jon conceived at Harrenhall. In order for Ashara to be his mother she had to be able to pursue Ned into a war zone with no method of communicating with him to arrange an assignation. The next info drop comes via Meera who provides the first clue it was Brandon when she tells us the wild wolf asked her to dance with the quiet wolf. That nudges us in the right direction; Brandon interacted with Ashara. Barbrey Dustin informs us Brandon had a thing for deflowering maidens and was not at all faithful to Cat during their betrothal. Then finally Barristan confirms her child was fathered by a Stark, and that she might have killed herself in grief over her dead lover. Ned was not dead, nor was he disliked by Barristan. Barristan finally nails it home by lamenting how beautiful maids desire fire not mud, you're quite right he's the mud & he's thinking about his non relationship with Ashara projecting it onto the Qynt/Dany/Daario situation. But you've missed the implications of that. Barristan was the mud so Ashara's chosen lover had to have been fire. Ned ain't fire. Ned's another mud bloke. But if you take a look at Cat & Barbrey's reminisces about Brandon he was Fire to the core. Thus concluded Ashara's story is told she can leave the stage exit left.

Quote

And if you look at the 11 times she comes up in the text every single one pertains to her possible role as Jon's mother and as I've illustrated she is set up and then knocked down, what other influence can she possibly have? She could show up sure, she might be Lemmore or Quaithe. But if she does turn up what will she do? She can reveal that she is not his mum. But the attentive reader worked that out already. She might have important House Dayne info sure. But so might Ned, or Allyria, or Gerold. And they're all known to be alive and are on the stage or waiting in a known location. She might be Allyria's mother. That would be an interesting easter egg, we might meet Allyria in TWOW and she might have a long face or grey eyes, that would confirm her as Brandon & Ashara's Daughter. But I doubt it would mean anything other than confirming what we've already worked out that Brandon was her lover not Ned therefore she is not Jon's Mum.

Please excuse me for being a pretentious twat and quoting myself. 

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

It's very simple, really: the important stuff is what the author writes about, the unimportant stuff is what the author doesn't write about.

The author wrote 36 references to Lyanna Stark into canon (as well as three references to Lyanna Mormont).

The author also wrote 38 references to Tysha, Tyrion's first wife, into canon.

Is it, then, your position that Tysha is slightly more important to ASOIAF than Lyanna Stark?

[Megorova]

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And to the idea that Ned Dayne was swapped somehow. 

I didn't said that he was swapped. I think that Ashara's and Arthur's older brother is not father of Edric Ned Dayne. Maybe they didn't even had an older brother. Thus no one switched the babies, there was only one baby - son of Ashara and Howland. And because after Arthur's death, Ashara was head of Dayne's family, and thus her children should have inherited Starfall. But first she gave birth to a daughter, and Daynes already had a girl (Allyria). And even though Ashara's second child was a boy, they couldn't give him away, because he was a future head of Reed's House. But third child, that was a boy, they gave to Daynes, because Daynes, after Arthur's death had no male heir. If I'm right and there was no older brother.

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I stand by what I said earlier. Sorry, but none of the quotes you provided do anything to change my mind. There's still no evidence nor hint that I can see. We will have to wait and see what happens in Winds.

Yes, we'll have to wait... and wait, and wait, and wait

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

On 11.03.2018 at 1:39 AM, Megorova said:

snip

Dragons are creations of R'hllor

snip.

Say what now? 

Dragons are fire made flesh. R'hllor is Lord of Light, or God of Fire, thus dragons are his creations. Metaphorically.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Words should be weighed, not counted.

How many zo Loraqs were Rhaegar's best friend? How many zo Loraqs served in Aerys' kingsguard? How many zo Loraqs bear storied swords with a heritage running back to the Age of Heroes, with a legend rich in resonances and imagery suggestive of the Dawn war? How many zo Loraqs run with the Brotherhood Without Banners? How many zo Loraqs are even rumoured to be mother of Ned Stark's bastard? How many zo Loraqs are plotting to overthrow the king on the Iron Throne in favour of his sister? Which zo Loraq is it that Jaime Lannister was so desperate to become? Which zo Loraq is the best swordsman the realm has ever known? Which zo Loraq is called the most dangerous man in any of the Seven Kingdoms? Which zo Loraq haunts the dreams of any of the major characters in the tale?

The Daynes might get few mentions, that doesn't make them unimportant in how the story unfolds. They punch far above their word count.

They do. 

For one, they seem to have kept out of Dornish politics. They are not in King's Landing when Oberyn travels there, and they are not represented at the feast Doran throws for Balon Swann. 

The Lord of Starfall promises Allyria to Beric, a Marcher Lord. That's kind of a biggie imo, and Edric is sent there. 

And Doran sends Hotah and Obara after a Dayne of the junior branch. If Doran is not playing the long game, then he has decided that Gerold is expendable. It will be interesting to know if they are one of the Houses massing on the Prince's Pass with Fowler's host. I somehow doubt it.

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Please excuse me for being a pretentious twat and quoting myself. 

This made me laugh. Your thoughts are similar to mine on Ashara, so you won't be getting any push back from me.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

18 hours ago, Megorova said:

Dragons are fire made flesh. R'hllor is Lord of Light, or God of Fire, thus dragons are his creations. Metaphorically.

Ah! See what you've done there is to work through a process using assumptions and assumed the answer must be correct without having tested any of the information you used to get there. 

Dragons are said to be fire made flesh; we do not know where this saying came from but certainly the evidence of dragons breathing fire etc points to them having some relation to fire. Though I doubt it is literal as sayings go. 

R'hllor is lord of light; is he? does he exist? can we prove that? In fact when you examine the references to R'hllor and the magic assigned by "his" followers to him that doesn't truly stand up. Take fire visions for example. IF fire visions are granted by an actual god why is it that in TP&TQ we meet Alys Rivers who is not associated with the red god who see's much and more in Cooking fires, Storm Coulds, Puddles. The key thing here that sets the readers bells ringing is FIRE. Alys is not a red priestess she is most likely a woods witch and follower of the old gods. But even that is guess work arived at through careful examination of the imagary used, her name and description, GRRM's tendency towards witchy women with long flowing hair and the name Alys etc and the association between the name and black hair with house blackwood who follow the old gods. .  Secondly if the "miracle" of the fire kiss is granted by a god and bestowed by his priests how is it that Beric who is not a red priest can revive Catelyn by breathing an actual real flame into her mouth which results in his own return to death? The fire kiss according to Thoros involves a prayer and you need a fire to perform it. But Beric does not perform this he simply passes on the real physical fire created by Thoros to Cat. I propose it isn't a prayer at all but simply a spell. The magic isn't granted by R'hllor the actual god doling out favours to his faithful it's just magic which some people can wield. 

And the assumption that something made from fire must be made by a god associated with fire is far far too simplistic for this story. You've looked at point A & point B and drawn a line between them using the shortest route but that doesn't mean the  conclusion is sound. Especially when the evidence that R'hllor is real is scanty at best. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

17 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

They do. 

For one, they seem to have kept out of Dornish politics. They are not in King's Landing when Oberyn travels there, and they are not represented at the feast Doran throws for Balon Swann. 

The Lord of Starfall promises Allyria to Beric, a Marcher Lord. That's kind of a biggie imo, and Edric is sent there. 

And Doran sends Hotah and Obara after a Dayne of the junior branch. If Doran is not playing the long game, then he has decided that Gerold is expendable. It will be interesting to know if they are one of the Houses massing on the Prince's Pass with Fowler's host. I somehow doubt it.

This made me laugh. Your thoughts are similar to mine on Ashara, so you won't be getting any push back from me.

Aye, I used to think Oh for sure she isn't dead and will turn up and be really important. But then Ned died and it became really clear this story was never about him and is in fact holey about the younger generation of characters with those of Ned & Ashara's generation playing background roles. She isn't coming back and she was never important other than as a red herring for Jon's mother. 

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Dragons are said to be fire made flesh; we do not know where this saying came from but certainly the evidence of dragons breathing fire etc points to them having some relation to fire. Though I doubt it is literal as sayings go. 

Their blood is so hot, that it melts metal. And when they are wounded, the smoke is coming out of their wounds. They breathe fire, and fire don't harm them. Original Valyrian dragons were living inside volcanoes. Dragonglass was called by Valyrians a frozen fire. Dragonglass is created by intense heat. Those are facts.

Now half-facts half-assumptions. Valyrian blades of Targaryen kings in Dany's vision were called swords of pale fire. Valyrian steel is forged in dragonfire, and/or in sacred flames in R'hllor's temple (that is if Lightbringer was a Valyrian steel blade). Could be that dragonglass can be created not only by heat of volcano, but also by heat of dragonfire. There were caves on Dragonstone island. And Targaryen dragons lived in those caves, and layed there dragon eggs. Based on what was written about Viseryon in ADWD, it's possible that caves on Dragonstone were made by dragons.

Viseryon is a small dragon, and this is what he was able to do:

Quote

Quentyn stepped back, lifted the torch, craned his head back.

For a moment he saw only the blackened arches of the bricks above, scorched by dragonflame. A trickle of ash caught his eye, betraying movement. Something pale, half-hidden, stirring. He’s made himself a cave, the prince realized. A burrow in the brick. The foundations of the Great Pyramid of Meereen were massive and thick to support the weight of the huge structure overhead; even the interior walls were three times thicker than any castle’s curtain walls. But Viserion had dug himself a hole in them with flame and claw, a hole big enough to sleep in.

When Targaryens came to Dragonstone, they brought with them five HUGE dragons. And at least some of those dragons were females, and they made for themselves a nest, in stone underneath Dragonstone castle. And after those five, there were dozens of others. And all of them lived in those caves, and most likely were making them bigger and bigger, by melting stones with their firebreath. Thus could be that dragonglass in caves of Dragonstone island, is not a volcanic glass, actually it was created by dragonfire. And most likely it doesn't matter, whether certain dragonglass was created by heat of volcano, or by heat of dragonfire, it still has same properties, can kill wights, and is "frozen fire". Based on this, dragonglass can kill wights, because there's still fire element present inside dragonglass, even though it was created long time ago. It's frozen fire. But not frozen in a sense of cold, rather in a sense of stopped or paused or unmoving fire. Thus could be, that same as in case with dragonglass, that was created by volcano or by dragonfire, in Valyrian steel, there are also present remnants of fire. And thus that's why swords of those kings, in Dany's vision, were called swords of pale fire.

So dragons not only have fire-blood, they also can create things, such as dragonglass and Valyrian steel, that are carrying fire-element inside of them. Dragons can create "permanent" fire. Thus they're not only made of fire, they also can create fire. So they are not only creations of R'hllor, but they are also his instruments.

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Secondly if the "miracle" of the fire kiss is granted by a god and bestowed by his priests how is it that Beric who is not a red priest can revive Catelyn by breathing an actual real flame into her mouth which results in his own return to death? The fire kiss according to Thoros involves a prayer and you need a fire to perform it. But Beric does not perform this he simply passes on the real physical fire created by Thoros to Cat.

Let's imagine that fire kiss is an oxygen mask, and it was created in a process of a ritual, with prayers and other magic elements, and that dead people can't function without that special oxygen mask. Thoros created that oxygen mask, and gave it to Berric, and Berric became alive again, or rather became functioning, even though he wasn't entirely alive again. And then he gave that oxygen mask to Cat, thus he died, and she became able to function.

Thus there was no need for Berric to create something new, he just passed to Cat, what was originally created by Thoros, then given to Berric, and then given to Cat. Cat is "alive" thanks to life force, given to Thoros from R'hllor.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Their blood is so hot, that it melts metal. And when they are wounded, the smoke is coming out of their wounds. They breathe fire, and fire don't harm them. Original Valyrian dragons were living inside volcanoes. Dragonglass was called by Valyrians a frozen fire. Dragonglass is created by intense heat. Those are facts.

Now half-facts half-assumptions. Valyrian blades of Targaryen kings in Dany's vision were called swords of pale fire. Valyrian steel is forged in dragonfire, and/or in sacred flames in R'hllor's temple (that is if Lightbringer was a Valyrian steel blade). Could be that dragonglass can be created not only by heat of volcano, but also by heat of dragonfire. There were caves on Dragonstone island. And Targaryen dragons lived in those caves, and layed there dragon eggs. Based on what was written about Viseryon in ADWD, it's possible that caves on Dragonstone were made by dragons.

Viseryon is a small dragon, and this is what he was able to do:

When Targaryens came to Dragonstone, they brought with them five HUGE dragons. And at least some of those dragons were females, and they made for themselves a nest, in stone underneath Dragonstone castle. And after those five, there were dozens of others. And all of them lived in those caves, and most likely were making them bigger and bigger, by melting stones with their firebreath. Thus could be that dragonglass in caves of Dragonstone island, is not a volcanic glass, actually it was created by dragonfire. And most likely it doesn't matter, whether certain dragonglass was created by heat of volcano, or by heat of dragonfire, it still has same properties, can kill wights, and is "frozen fire". Based on this, dragonglass can kill wights, because there's still fire element present inside dragonglass, even though it was created long time ago. It's frozen fire. But not frozen in a sense of cold, rather in a sense of stopped or paused or unmoving fire. Thus could be, that same as in case with dragonglass, that was created by volcano or by dragonfire, in Valyrian steel, there are also present remnants of fire. And thus that's why swords of those kings, in Dany's vision, were called swords of pale fire.

So dragons not only have fire-blood, they also can create things, such as dragonglass and Valyrian steel, that are carrying fire-element inside of them. Dragons can create "permanent" fire. Thus they're not only made of fire, they also can create fire. So they are not only creations of R'hllor, but they are also his instruments.

Let's imagine that fire kiss is an oxygen mask, and it was created in a process of a ritual, with prayers and other magic elements, and that dead people can't function without that special oxygen mask. Thoros created that oxygen mask, and gave it to Berric, and Berric became alive again, or rather became functioning, even though he wasn't entirely alive again. And then he gave that oxygen mask to Cat, thus he died, and she became able to function.

Thus there was no need for Berric to create something new, he just passed to Cat, what was originally created by Thoros, then given to Berric, and then given to Cat. Cat is "alive" thanks to life force, given to Thoros from R'hllor.

I agree the first paragraph contains facts. I didn't dispute that Dragons are indeed very closely entwined with Fire as an element. Just that to say they are literally fire made flesh is a stretch. It is a descriptive saying referring to those aspects of their physicality which involve fire and heat. Non of this supports them being created by R'hllor though. 

Perhaps Dragons could make dragonglass, the only thing in the book which can be used to support that though is one mention that the smallfolk think they did, it isn't a huge amount of support but often the Maesters are wrong and you do have to read between the lines and glean the nuggets to be found from rumours and folk tales.  I agree the dragons likely made themselves some caves on Dragonstone.

But Dragonstone itself is a volcanic island. Obsidian is created via volcanic activity and a shit load of time. So I don't think we can call it definitive that Dragons created the Dragonglass there. Also in support of the idea that Dragonglass retains actual fire. I agree with your idea of frozen being interpreted to mean freeze framed BTW. Quaithe tells Dany this. 

Quote

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

So if fire can be "woken" from Dragonglass that would suggest there is a form of fire frozen within Dragonglass. This is stuff I can pretty much agree with. With the caveat that we don't yet have enough textual evidence to say definitively that Dragons make Dragonglass. But you loose me when you again say 

Quote

So they are not only creations of R'hllor, but they are also his instruments.

How do we know this? We do not have any evidence to suggest R'hllor exists let alone created Dragons. The only things which can be used as evidence of R'hllors actual existence are his supposed miracles. But they are not attributable to him.  

I agree re the fire being the thing which is doing the work, that it is a created flame which animates the dead. But that flame is created by Thoros who is a Red Priest. Beric simply passes it on. IF it were a miracle of R'hllor he would have no abillity to pass it on. Imagine Lazarus gifting his life to another if you will. Nope God granted that miracle for him. Not Obadiah the fishmonger down the rd. Why should god allow his gift to be re-gifted like that.   And you didn't talk about Alys. And I really do think she is the huge flag waving clue GRRM gave us that there is no R'hllor. She uses the fire vision magic and has very likely never heard of R'hllor, she also uses other elemental things to see visions. This implies that the thing that the red priests are doing isn't god given but that they are just accessing magic. Think about what we learn of the faith of the red god. Thoros tells us he was gifted to the Red Temple as a baby and that he was never very talented or dedicated. So he was sent to Westeros. This tells us they had little hope of converting the Westerosi and offloaded a lack lustre priest. Tyrion informs us later though that the Temples buy slaves as well as receive gifts and that there are three categories of dedication. Priests, Warriors, & Prostitutes. Now if you are sifting slaves for magical abillity what would you do with the slaves and or gifted kids that didn't have that abillity. The boy can become warriors; forming a religious guard or army. The girls well, you can do the maths......

Thoros says that he had seen the fire kiss performed hundreds of times before yet it had never resulted in the resurrection of the dead? How queer. Was R'hllor taking a nap? Or maybe it has more to do with the reawakening of magic in the world. IE: the "prayer" is a spell and it works now, just like the conjurer in Qarth can do the fire ladder trick now and Wildfire is so much easier to brew etc. 

Mellisandre confesses in her POV chapter that much of what she does in the name of R'hllor is just parlour tricks achieved through magic powders. Mirri Maz Durr uses one in her ceremony to resurrect Drogo. The fear powder. Bennero is using them outside the temple in Volantis to conjure glyphs in the air. Mirri also tells us she knows the healing magic of fire which Moqorro goes on to use on Victarion. She is not a Red Priest but has learnt many magics and secret knowledge through her travels to Asshai. She's learnt the things the Red Priests say are miracles of R'hllor. 

Final point; GRRM recently referred to the people who have received the fire kiss as fire wights, and said that they are dead, they don't breath and their blood does not flow, their hearts do not beat. This does not sound much like the gift of returned life from a god. Surely a god could restore life in its true form?

[Megorova]

17 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Thoros says that he had seen the fire kiss performed hundreds of times before yet it had never resulted in the resurrection of the dead? How queer. Was R'hllor taking a nap?

No, he wasn't taking a nap. The original point of the fire kiss, is to cleanse a soul, to make it pass into afterlife without sins.

In Blind Girl chapter, there was a story about God with three heads. First head brings death, third head is rebirth. And in my opinion, second head purifies souls with fire, like in Purgatory.

So the purpose of the fire kiss is purification, not returning of life. And Berric's revival happened because it was R'hllor's will, to bring him back. And Berric's mission was to carry that fire, until his path will cross with Cat. He was revived to revive Cat. Everything happened like it was planned by R'hllor. It's one of those - God works in a mysterious way.

28 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Final point; GRRM recently referred to the people who have received the fire kiss as fire wights, and said that they are dead, they don't breath and their blood does not flow, their hearts do not beat. This does not sound much like the gift of returned life from a god. Surely a god could restore life in its true form?

People are servants and instrumens of gods, not their children or valuable pets. They will live/function, as long as the god requires them to do, what he wants from them. And when they will accomplish their mission, with it will end their service and their existence. So there's no need to actually make them alive again. What for? They can do what they have to do, even without actually becoming alive again.

32 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And you didn't talk about Alys. And I really do think she is the huge flag waving clue GRRM gave us that there is no R'hllor. She uses the fire vision magic and has very likely never heard of R'hllor, she also uses other elemental things to see visions.

God/deity is a source of power/magic, all of it. Even those people, that doesn't pray in temples of that certain deity, still can be his servants/instruments and thus be given his power, to make with it miracles. Even if they themselves don't know nothing about that deity, or source of their power. Marionettes don't have to know, what puppeteer plan to make them do, he will just pull their threads, and they will do what needs to be done. Just look at Dany, no matter how many mistakes she does, things happen, that bring her back to right path. So eventually she will still accomplish her mission - to hatch dragons and bring them to Jon. And to do that, she doesn't even need to know what she's doing.

[Therae]

@Megorova I'm not so sure that in-universos gods are necessarily established as real or the source of anything. GRRM has done a pretty meticulous job of ensuring that we see from the POV of characters who believe, their gods are real to them, but he has not at all established that any of them exist objectively. Magic, however, certainly does exist, and apparently operates with varying levels of success that depend on some combination of the inherent ability of the specific folks trying to use it and/or the training those specific folks have had. Some of them, like Mel and Thoros, may attribute it the power that makes their spells work to their god, but there is no evidence other than their own belief that he is actually responsible, and actually quite a bit that suggests otherwise -- @The Weirwoods Eyes has given several examples, and another is that both Thoros and Beric seem to work quite a bit of "fire magic" from within the hollow hill among the weirwood roots, and EVERYTHING about that particular setting suggests Old Gods, not Red. Moreover, Thoros and Beric don't seem to do much for R'hollor other than remind everyone that the night is dark and full of terrors, and they certainly don't seem to have a problem with swearing by the Seven (Beric does this) or consulting the GoHH, who is absolutely an oldsy-godsy woodswitch, but the Lord of Light according to both Melisandre and Moqorro is one of two, and all the rest are incarnations of the enemy. Yet Thoros and Beric are arguably more successful at fire magic than M&M, and this is even when they are in a place that really ought to be fire-unfriendly.

I think that's probably because it's fire magic, not the power of R'hollor.

As for the dragons being his, that only works if all the gods we've heard of belong to the same great pantheon, whether they get different names from religion to religion, and his job is fire, but that doesn't really come from the text. We've got the Seven who are actually one, and so a monotheism. We've got the old gods, who are an animism. We've got old R'hollor, who is half of a dualism, and refuses to accept any other incarnations of deity and insists they are all evil. We've got goodness knows how many other local gods with their own particular interests. We've also got the old gods of Valyria, which is a polytheism and whichever of them were associated with volcanoes would be far more likely to be associated with dragons than anyone else because a.) Valyria, b.) volcanoes, which seems to be related to the origin of dragons, and their probably predecessors, the Wyrms (according to the Kindly Man), and c.) Aegon's three were named after some of them. I find it interesting that by the time of the Doom, Valyrians pretty much didn't believe in any gods. But they did believe in magic. Oh, and then we've got the Many-Faced God, who is Death by any name, because every religion has one. He is pan-pantheonic; I don't think the rest are necessarily given to cognates.

And I really don't think the George is planning on "proving" any of them to be the "real" one (with the caveat that death certainly is a thing for everyone sooner or later). Especially not that one. I just really can't see Red Rahloo as the One True God is where we're headed. I mean, seriously, human sacrifice is sort of a red flag of Not Okay.

I think the dragons are just more evidence that magic is back in the world (again, as @The Weirwoods Eyes has noted), but what brought it back probably won't turn out to be divine in the usual sense. 

[Megorova]

37 minutes ago, Therae said:

And I really don't think the George is planning on "proving" any of them to be the "real" one (with the caveat that death certainly is a thing for everyone sooner or later). Especially not that one. I just really can't see Red Rahloo as the One True God is where we're headed. I mean, seriously, human sacrifice is sort of a red flag of Not Okay.

Inquisition. And crusades. People burned alive. And people killed. For God.

Seems that this fire religion is based on Christianity, where Rhaego is like Jesus Christ. King of kings, that will unite all people. And the Stallion that will mount the world, is khal of khals. Khal is equivalent of a King.

There's also other symbols in ASOIAF, taken from Christianity. Like sacrificial lamb, during Red Wedding. Unicorns and griffins on doors of House of Black and White, that are symbols of Jesus. And burning heart, that Melisandre and Stannis use as symbol of Azor Ahai and R'hllor. Which is also a symbol of Jesus. R'hllor's Fiery Hands are like crusaders or knight templars. And High Priest of Volantis is like Pope of Rome.

59 minutes ago, Therae said:

Oh, and then we've got the Many-Faced God, who is Death by any name, because every religion has one. He is pan-pantheonic

Jaqen served to Many-Faced God, nevertheless he believes that R'hllor does exist. Otherwise why to pay him back?

[Nowy Tends]

20 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Seems that this fire religion is based on Christianity, where Rhaego is like Jesus Christ.

What?

AFAIK Christianity started with the Christ; the cult of Rh'llor existed well before the birth of a Rhaego which no one has heard of…

[Therae]

@Megorova There are references to Christianity all over, sure--although I think the Faith of the Seven is more directly inspired by Catholicism than what the followers of the Lord of Light practice, which I believe is a bit more aligned with Zoroastrianism, actually, but there's a bunch of cross-pollination, which is in keeping with real world religions, too.

The thing is that GRRM built a world which includes a lot of religions and a number of zealots and set it in a period similar to our own middle ages, in which religion was much more commonly much more prevalent in every aspect of everyone's life, but that does not make ASoIaF an allegory a la the Narnia Chronicles, only with graphic violence and excruciatingly graphic sex. I just really don't think that the end game here is actually the second coming and the apocalypse, no matter how many prophesies there are about promised princes and Azor Ahais. The middle ages were filled with them, too, and even just 18 years ago, there were plenty of folks expecting the the rapture.

No matter how much good versus evil the characters speak of, this is a story about people and their own internal struggles to do the most right thing while the world throws an avalanche of external challenges at them. There may be a holy war in the story (though I doubt it really--we've got the inquisitors from the Seven ready to persecute away in King's Landing, and Melisandre looking to force the Red God on everyone, plus throw in a couple of Greyjoys pulling for the Drowned God, while another Greyjoy thinks he has become the Storm God, sure, but this is all just to make things more difficult for everyone. If it's really leading up to an end-all be-all holy war with an actual winner, complete with its own JHC savior, I will eat my hat. Well, I won't, but I will knit a hat for you, @Megorova.  )

I gotta say, though, Rhaego is an odd choice (I mean, aside from the part where I think there your theory about him requires a bit too much thinking zebras when hearing hoofbeats). His father followed the Great Stallion, his mother would have belonged to the Seven if she'd had any instruction, although it appears she did not--and when she thinks about gods, she just thinks it seems like a lonely thing to be and she wouldn't want to be one, but shows no particular leaning towards any of them, R'hllor included. Were he to have lived, he'd be a lot more likely to be an Attila the Great, not a Christ. The Dothraki aren't all that big on love and self-sacrifice (or turning the other cheek).

OMG, I am sure this is way way off topic, since I'm not even sure what it was anymore. Sorry guys! :|

Edit: P.S. I am not too sure Jaqen really served the MFG. They don't say "only death can pay for life" at the HoBaW; they say "all men must die." It's a really, really different philosophy. Clearly he's got something to do with the Faceless Men, and of course he recruited Arya for them, but he was way too concerned with the Lord of Light to be No One. (Interestingly it seems that at least part of the price for death, when you pray for someone else's, is to give your life into the service of the MFG, which is really the opposite of death paying for life.)