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Viilu79

The real reason connecting White walkers and Long night?

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I have been wondering what is the connection behind White walkers and long night. Also what could cause night that lasts generations. Only real conclusion is a massive natural disaster. Well, what could cause suchs a thing with regular basis? Something that orbits the planetos, the Red comet. There a so many good essays about second moon and dragons from the incident etc... Well, what i'm wondering how are the white walkers connected to this incident. Maybe they are on the move again, because they are here to save the planetos from the comet, again? Is the Night's King the Azor ahai or/and the Last hero.

Also was wall created so that the White walkers are safe from humans, so that when the time comes, they are still around and "alive" to save the planetos.

Where and how are they then going to save planetos? Isle of faces maybe, because the old magic is strongest there. Maybe they are going to move moon on the path of the comet? And also, maybe Night king needs a successor for next long night, someone who is willing to sacrifice himself for greater good? is it Jon Snow?

 

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46 minutes ago, Viilu79 said:

I have been wondering what is the connection behind White walkers and long night. Also what could cause night that lasts generations. Only real conclusion is a massive natural disaster. Well, what could cause suchs a thing with regular basis? Something that orbits the planetos, the Red comet. There a so many good essays about second moon and dragons from the incident etc... Well, what i'm wondering how are the white walkers connected to this incident. Maybe they are on the move again, because they are here to save the planetos from the comet, again? Is the Night's King the Azor ahai or/and the Last hero.

Also was wall created so that the White walkers are safe from humans, so that when the time comes, they are still around and "alive" to save the planetos.

Where and how are they then going to save planetos? Isle of faces maybe, because the old magic is strongest there. Maybe they are going to move moon on the path of the comet? And also, maybe Night king needs a successor for next long night, someone who is willing to sacrifice himself for greater good? is it Jon Snow?

 

My favorite hypothesis: the White Walkers aren't the cause of the Long Night, but rather that they're the humans who used magic to transform themselves into something that could survive and thrive in the new conditions.

Let's say the Long Night was caused by the Children of the Forest to try to force the First Men to submit to their domination. The Others were the ones who refused, instead saying "bring it on" and turning themselves into ice-people because that was a preferable alternative to becoming subservient to their enemy. But when the rest of the human race relented and agreed to the pact, the Others turned off their Winter of Mass Destruction and the few humans who had refused to submit were forced into the far North.

In the years since, the Children of the Forest were beaten by two things: the Faith of the Seven as a bulwark against the Children's indoctrination (it was designed expressly for this purpose, I suspect, conditioning men against the influence of their manipulation) and finally by the construction of Harrenhal, which (when ruled by someone of the correct bloodline) cancels out magical activity in a specific radius. The main "brain" of the Children's hivemind is on the Isle of Faces, so while Harrenhal was ruled by Hoare descendants (houses Lothston and Whent) the "weirnet" was crippled. Only the Weirwoods north of the Wall were still functional, the anti-magic properties of the Wall ironically shielding them the the anti-magic effects of Harrenhal.

The WMD was deactivated, but not destroyed. It was put on a "dead man's switch" activated when the Children lose their seat at the table of human politics: house Stark. The Starks are bred to be particularly easy for the Children to manipulate, and so as long as there's a Stark in Winterfell, the conditions of the CotF remain intact and the WMD is held back. This became a problem because of that Hoare bloodline, Catlyn's Whent mother. The same quality of the Hoare line that allows Harrenhal to nullify magic also cancels out the property that qualifies them as Starks to the Children, their suseptability to their manipulation. When Ned (and Jon) left Winterfel, there was nobody left who registered as a Stark to the dead man's switch, and the WMD was reactivated. By the time the Children were able to act south of the Wall again (when the last Whent was driven from Harrenhal during the War of the Five Kings) it was too late to stop it. That's the nature of a dead man's switch.

And so with the Long Night returning, the Others return with it. Not because they're the cause of it, but simply because surviving the long winter and supplanting mankind on a frozen world is the reason they exist.

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1 hour ago, Viilu79 said:

I have been wondering what is the connection behind White walkers and long night. Also what could cause night that lasts generations. Only real conclusion is a massive natural disaster. Well, what could cause suchs a thing with regular basis?

Regular basis? So far, in the history of the world, it has happened once. It's speculated that it might be coming again. So, as irregular basis as it gets.

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In regular basis there has been incident in the Arm of dorne and also the incident in the neck maybe also incident in Valyria. But what i'm saying is the fact, that if in the solar system is something regular happening, it is the Red comet. It has regular orbit, so has the planetos. There are wery good theories about second moon, and that somethind hit it and it is no more. There are theories also that if second moon dissappears, it will make planetos "wabble" (if it is the correct term) so that is the reason for irrecular seasons. But what causes the "Long night" that lasts for generations? I'm thinking that something disaster has happened and it will happen again! Also GRRM has this habbit of telling things in forehand in his novels. He has mentioned comet, and it is a fact that comet will be coming back! It is the nature of a comet.

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3 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

When Ned (and Jon) left Winterfel, there was nobody left who registered as a Stark to the dead man's switch, and the WMD was reactivated. By the time the Children were able to act south of the Wall again (when the last Whent was driven from Harrenhal during the War of the Five Kings) it was too late to stop it. That's the nature of a dead man's switch.

But White Walkers had been seen way way before Ned and Jon left Winterfell. 

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In the 1997 summary for GoT, there's a reference to a cataclysm:

Quote

"An ancient cataclysm has thrown the seasons into disarray, and the royal house of Starks is thrust into the center of the conflict, in a tale of lords and ladies, soldiers and sorcerers, assassins and saviors, and the game of thrones."

The Long Night, rather the unusually long winters and summers, are related to this magical catastrophe. So we can say that the WW are related to magic gone wrong somehow. WW were also once described as "neverborn" in the summaries. It's hard to say at this point, but WW are probably magical creatures related to the Great Other, the antagonistic god. Right now, we are given bit of puzzle pieces but not solid connections between each. In the Prologue, WW are described as these things that look a lot like ice, different from all other warm blooded creatures. They could just be a different species like the Children. But they hate all things warm, according to legend. So it points to the central ice and fire theme, the divine magical war between these two elements. WW are apparently a result of that but I don't think we can discern anything more than that at this point. 

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I think that there was a "long night" but it wasn't to the extent that we heard. Remember it is passed down through story tellers and we first hear it from ol nan who tells it like a horror story. I think it was more like very short days and a very long winter but not one that lasted centuries because nothing could survive that because there would be no food. So basically some of it is an exagerattion.

I think that when the white walkers move in force it somehow starts it. Well when they move in force and winter hits. My idea is that the wall is holding it back as well.

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I found this cool video, which is pretty much telling what I'm trying to say if halleys comet, or in the world of ASoIaF The Red comet strucks the Planetos. The timelines of climate change in ASoIaF match this animation pretty nicely.

https://www.insidescience.org/video/what-would-happen-if-there-were-no-moon Also this video explains very well how earth would be without moon. I stated before that, Planetos has most likely had a second moon and if it is there no more, something has happened to it!?  Losing that other moon also caused the irratic seasons, but no Long night, reason for that is something else.

The Red comet struck the second moon and the debree of that collision did cause the Long night. But it was the white walkers whom were the reason for the second moon to be in the path of the comet firstplace! Otherwise it would have collided the Planetos. Maybe they used strongest magic-place in planetos the Isle of faces and the weirwoods.

So that's why the White walkers are out there to save the Planetos and killing ewerydy on the path, because, otherwise, there wouldn't be anybody to save left!

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22 hours ago, Viilu79 said:

I have been wondering what is the connection behind White walkers and long night. Also what could cause night that lasts generations. Only real conclusion is a massive natural disaster. Well, what could cause suchs a thing with regular basis? Something that orbits the planetos, the Red comet. There a so many good essays about second moon and dragons from the incident etc... Well, what i'm wondering how are the white walkers connected to this incident. Maybe they are on the move again, because they are here to save the planetos from the comet, again? Is the Night's King the Azor ahai or/and the Last hero.

Also was wall created so that the White walkers are safe from humans, so that when the time comes, they are still around and "alive" to save the planetos.

Where and how are they then going to save planetos? Isle of faces maybe, because the old magic is strongest there. Maybe they are going to move moon on the path of the comet? And also, maybe Night king needs a successor for next long night, someone who is willing to sacrifice himself for greater good? is it Jon Snow?

 

Saving planetos have different meanings.  A human would think saving planetos mean warm weather and big cities.  In other words, suitable for the warm blooded humans.  A white walker will think that's a hostile environment.  

The N-K doesn't figure into the novels.  Yet.  But Jon is a good guess to fill that position.  I'm almost sure there is a N-Q somewhere.  I don't have evidence to back it up other than a hunch.  A queen leads colonies of bees and ants.  That's how I see the white walkers.  

21 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

My favorite hypothesis: the White Walkers aren't the cause of the Long Night, but rather that they're the humans who used magic to transform themselves into something that could survive and thrive in the new conditions.

I'm not supportive of this theory but it is rather intriguing.  Preston Jacobs, the famous youtuber, thinks many unwanted bastards were disposed of through the bastard's gate.  I'll hazard an unsupported guess that the babies  got saved.  The N-Q rescued and adopted these babies and did what you said, convert them to survive in the cold.  These bitter bastards want to set their claims now that the weather will favor them.  

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I think that there was a "long night" but it wasn't to the extent that we heard. Remember it is passed down through story tellers and we first hear it from ol nan who tells it like a horror story. I think it was more like very short days and a very long winter but not one that lasted centuries because nothing could survive that because there would be no food. So basically some of it is an exagerattion.

I think that when the white walkers move in force it somehow starts it. Well when they move in force and winter hits. My idea is that the wall is holding it back as well.

I think the story from Old Nan is the the Long Night lasted a generation.  In  a medieval world, that would be birth to parenthood - 13 or 14 years?  

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

"You mean the Others," Bran said querulously.

"The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"

So I'm guessing that up until the first long night,  the seasons were normal and Old Nan's story is a verbal of record of the first time the seasons became unbalanced.   Now the winters are as long as the summers and the last summer was 10 years long.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving up its ghosts at last. After this the cold would come, they warned, and a long summer always meant a long winter.

This summer had lasted ten years. Jon had been a babe in arms when it began.

I'd also say that the long night refers to the normal decrease in daylight during the winter months but doesn't extend to an entire generation.  It's not the orbit of the planet that is affected.  The long night is probably a reference to the fact that to survive, the population had to move underground and live in the dark.  So I think the long night describes their living conditions rather than a catastrophe that covers the planet in literal darkness.   

Edited by LynnS

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On 12/03/2018 at 2:00 AM, Viilu79 said:

I stated before that, Planetos has most likely had a second moon and if it is there no more, something has happened to it!?  Losing that other moon also caused the irratic seasons, but no Long night, reason for that is something else.

The Red comet struck the second moon and the debree of that collision did cause the Long night.

I think this fits well with the story we are given in the novels. I don't have my books with me at the moment to give a direct quote, but I believe one of Dany's Dothraki "handmaids" (Jiqui? Irri?) gives her the story of the moon exploding and dragons pouring into the world. 

If a moon were hit by an asteroid/meteor, the debris flying down and hitting Westeros would be described like dragons flying down because the Dothraki have no other reference point. All the pieces hitting the atmosphere would burn up and look like lines of fire, similar to a flying dragons. I think the red comet that we see in CoK is GRRM setting this up, even if it doesn't necessarily affect the characters/world. 

I also agree that an event like this (if not this event) is the cause of the unbalanced systems. Everything we hear about long nights and summers of different lengths just sounds so much like an environment that is out of balance. 

Is it possible that White Walkers attacking Westeros in a mini sort of Ice Age could reset the balance?

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On 3/10/2018 at 5:30 PM, kissdbyfire said:

But White Walkers had been seen way way before Ned and Jon left Winterfell. 

Right, because the Walkers aren't the WMD, the Winter is.

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On 3/10/2018 at 0:47 PM, Viilu79 said:

I have been wondering what is the connection behind White walkers and long night.

8000 years ago the most terrible winter ever that lasted a generation swept through westeros. In the darkest part, the others came. That is the connection. Now, the white walkers have returned, and the continent is on the verge of another terrible winter

On 3/10/2018 at 0:47 PM, Viilu79 said:

Also what could cause night that lasts generations? 

Magic.  

On 3/10/2018 at 0:47 PM, Viilu79 said:

 Only real conclusion is a massive natural disaster. Well, what could cause suchs a thing with regular basis? Something that orbits the planetos, the Red comet.

And Magic 

On 3/10/2018 at 0:47 PM, Viilu79 said:

 There a so many good essays about second moon and dragons from the incident etc... Well, what i'm wondering how are the white walkers connected to this incident.

Essays from people who are not the author tend to be pretty meaningless

On 3/10/2018 at 0:47 PM, Viilu79 said:

Well, what i'm wondering how are the white walkers connected to this incident. Maybe they are on the move again, because they are here to save the planetos from the comet, again? 

 The others penchant for killing things, raising those dead things to fight for them to kill more things without communication seem to be antithetical to being saviors. But that's just me. There are tons of people on this forum that would agree with the sav it by killing it concept 

On 3/10/2018 at 0:47 PM, Viilu79 said:

 Is the Night's King the Azor ahai or/and the Last hero.

Not a chance

On 3/10/2018 at 0:47 PM, Viilu79 said:

Also was wall created so that the White walkers are safe from humans, so that when the time comes, they are still around and "alive" to save the planetos.

Not at all. If the wall was built to protect the white walkers, having it warded by magic that only stops them and their wights from crossing yet does nothing to prevent people from crossing seems like a really idiotic way to protect said others. All of the humans north of the wall put an nail in the coffin of that idea. 

On 3/10/2018 at 0:47 PM, Viilu79 said:

Where and how are they then going to save planetos? Isle of faces maybe, because the old magic is strongest there. Maybe they are going to move moon on the path of the comet? And also, maybe Night king needs a successor for next long night, someone who is willing to sacrifice himself for greater good? is it Jon Snow?

 They aren't here to protect anything. They bring cold, death and destruction. They are most likely an ancient enemy that moves south in cycles. Their woulderabilities to dragon glass, fire and ctof magic would make them relatively easy targets for the children and with the weirnet, the children would always see them coming. But after the first men arrive, cutting down weirwoods and killing the children, there was not much to stop them 8000 years ago. Hence the long night and the journey of the last hero/Brandon the Builder.  Boom goes the dynamite.  

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On 3/10/2018 at 1:59 PM, Damon_Tor said:

My favorite hypothesis: the White Walkers aren't the cause of the Long Night, but rather that they're the humans who used magic to transform themselves into something that could survive and thrive in the new conditions.

Let's say the Long Night was caused by the Children of the Forest to try to force the First Men to submit to their domination. The Others were the ones who refused, instead saying "bring it on" and turning themselves into ice-people because that was a preferable alternative to becoming subservient to their enemy. But when the rest of the human race relented and agreed to the pact, the Others turned off their Winter of Mass Destruction and the few humans who had refused to submit were forced into the far North.

In the years since, the Children of the Forest were beaten by two things: the Faith of the Seven as a bulwark against the Children's indoctrination (it was designed expressly for this purpose, I suspect, conditioning men against the influence of their manipulation) and finally by the construction of Harrenhal, which (when ruled by someone of the correct bloodline) cancels out magical activity in a specific radius. The main "brain" of the Children's hivemind is on the Isle of Faces, so while Harrenhal was ruled by Hoare descendants (houses Lothston and Whent) the "weirnet" was crippled. Only the Weirwoods north of the Wall were still functional, the anti-magic properties of the Wall ironically shielding them the the anti-magic effects of Harrenhal.

The WMD was deactivated, but not destroyed. It was put on a "dead man's switch" activated when the Children lose their seat at the table of human politics: house Stark. The Starks are bred to be particularly easy for the Children to manipulate, and so as long as there's a Stark in Winterfell, the conditions of the CotF remain intact and the WMD is held back. This became a problem because of that Hoare bloodline, Catlyn's Whent mother. The same quality of the Hoare line that allows Harrenhal to nullify magic also cancels out the property that qualifies them as Starks to the Children, their suseptability to their manipulation. When Ned (and Jon) left Winterfel, there was nobody left who registered as a Stark to the dead man's switch, and the WMD was reactivated. By the time the Children were able to act south of the Wall again (when the last Whent was driven from Harrenhal during the War of the Five Kings) it was too late to stop it. That's the nature of a dead man's switch.

And so with the Long Night returning, the Others return with it. Not because they're the cause of it, but simply because surviving the long winter and supplanting mankind on a frozen world is the reason they exist.

No. This only makes sense as fan fic 

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On 3/10/2018 at 5:30 PM, kissdbyfire said:

But White Walkers had been seen way way before Ned and Jon left Winterfell. 

there you go again with rational analysis of the books 

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On 3/10/2018 at 10:14 PM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

In the 1997 summary for GoT, there's a reference to a cataclysm:

Most of that outline has been superseded by what was actually written and published  

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12 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Right, because the Walkers aren't the WMD, the Winter is.

Or, the winter is magical in nature, caused by the others or something else in the heart of winter  

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Well, welcome @Viilu79--hell of a conversation to get things going.   But I like a good book chat and ideas.   I've been studying the 1st Long Night myself lately and something caused it.  I'm leaning toward the COTF having a hand in the lousy never ending winter, but I'm not convinced they have anything at all to do with the Others.  I guess the Others could be transformed or mutated humans, but there is nothing to base that on.  We are told repeatedly that the Others bring the cold, so I think they have a hand in the hard winter that was the Long Night, but I haven't figured it out.  We have plenty of cataclysms: Hardhome, The Doom, the Breaking of the Arm of Dorne, the Ghost Grass and the flooding of the Neck, to name a few.   If you look at the map of Essos you can clearly see serious terrain damage all over the place.    We've already got the Dayne's claim that the 1st one followed a falling star to Starfall and he built his castle of the material of the fallen star.  And his sword, too.  So we know something fell on Planetos at least once.  That oily black stone is another thing that seems to have fallen out of the sky, at least where the 5 forts are.  We have satellites and all sorts of space junk fall to our planet all the time.  There is no reason a comet or asteroid or moon or star or even another planet didn't crash into Planetos.  You seem to like Youtube.  I enjoy listening to theories.  An American Thinks has a nice 2 part idea about the Gods Eye being a giant crater and I like it.  He throws in some real world comparisons.  I reckon our red comet is a thing in here somewhere.   It seems to come around, at least Rhaegar claimed he saw it on the night Aegon was conceived.  Now Dany sees it right before her dragons hatch.  Coincidence?  

You can't really discount anything that may have happened in ancient time or the Dawn Age.  Records were not kept, but the oral traditions and lore have been passed down for at least 10,000 years if the stories from Yiti and Dorne have any truth at all.  The timeline is impossible, with Valyria being established as far back as the Long Night and Ironborn and Old Town just always having been there.   The COTF are credited or took credit for causing catastrophes.  Magic exists.  Dragons fly and greenseers see through time and black candles are burning.  This red comet means different things to many characters, dragons, kings--this thing has been around more than twice to Westeros.   You could be on to something here.  Or not, but it's still fun to toss around.  Good choice, Man. 

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Basically, as usual, everything @Dorian Martell's son son wrote.

That's  why I don't come around here much anymore, there's basically nothing left but the same old BS theories, one sillier than the other and extrapolated from random throwaway lines, fanfiction or some awful youtube videos. And that won't change until WoW arrives.

11 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Most of that outline has been superseded by what was actually written and published  

is that even the outline? Sounds like a blurb, and notice that it calls the Starks a "royal" house while in the story they are lordly, not royal.

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19 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Most of that outline has been superseded by what was actually written and published  

I'm talking about the summary for the actual, written book, not the outline GRRM mailed the publisher. If you Google the original publisher's summary for GoT, this cataclysm part is mentioned. It was a way of explaining AWOIAF to new readers. 

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