Is Robert Baratheon another Mad King?

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Here's the thing. You keep talking about madness and power is if they're mutually exclusive. As if by attributing an action to power, you negate the aspect of madness. It doesn't actually work that way. You can abuse power AND be mad. Ask Aerys Targaryen.

Yes, but Bob wasn't mad. He was a lot of negative things, but crazy was not one of them 

4 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Actually, the rest of the show shows how wrong Robert was. She had no real desire for the throne until Robert tried to poison her and her unborn child. She'd been acclimating to the ways of the dothraki, until Robert threatened her life and her child's life. That's what pissed her and Drogo off, prompting him to promise her Westeros.

So what. Bob was wrong and ned was right. That does not mean bob was crazy in any way. Bob was scared of a potential rival. Scared does not equal crazy 

4 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

And both were simply 14/15 year old children until a certain point. Drogo's armies were just that: Drogo's.

Yes, that is what Bob was scared of. He was scared that somehow the most legendary fighters in all of essos would cross the sea, crush his lickspittle forces and take him down.  That is a valid fear, and it does not make him crazy 

4 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Even if she wanted to lead them, not enough men would have followed her, and Drogo had made it clear he didn't care about the Iron Throne.

(This last bit was somewhat off topic. I just felt the need to clear up a common misconception)

Until he did care, and promised to take his army to westeros 

[White Ravens]

On 3/10/2018 at 8:33 PM, Jon_Stargaryen said:

I'm not saying that Robert likes to burn people then rape his Queen, or that he dances in the skin of Rhaegar Targaryen when he's feeling down.

My basic point can basically be summed up with this:

Now this is the moment of his most potent madness (that we're made aware of), and his ridiculous spending is considered less madness and more fiscal irresponsibility, but let's remember what this was about:

He threatened a man who refused to poison a pregnant teenager.

We also know from later Cersei chapters that he frequently raped his wife.

All thoughts are welcome. Please provide feedback.

Yes, he threatened a man who refused to poison a pregnant teenager but let's not forget that there is a thing called context.  He threatened Ned because Ned refused to follow Robert's order to carry out a political assassination.  Daenerys is only fourteen and, as you pointed out, she is pregnant but her pregnancy actually increases the threat to Robert's rule in Westeros.  Viserys and Daenerys were very little threat at all when they were homeless and wandering Essos looking for support but now she has married a Dothraki warlord with many thousands of mounted warriors under his command.  It could be argued that Viserys and Daenerys have a better claim to the Throne than Robert does so the last thing he wants is for them to cross the narrow sea with an invading force.  If Daenerys has a silver-haired child with purple eyes it only adds to her threat to the throne.  From a strategic perspective he would eliminating a threat to his rule and a potential and costly enemy invasion and he would be achieving it with very little risk to his person or his realm.  I was glad when Ned refused to co-operate but I can certainly see why Robert would want her removed from the equation. 

[Jon_Stargaryen]

 

40 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

This.

Rape is a crime, and you go to jail for that, not in a mental institution. No one claims he is insane in court after such an act since it wouldn't work. 

1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

Explain to me where he enjoyed rape and murder? Yes he raped Cersie by our standards but by feudal standards when your husband who btw is the king wants to have sex you usually agree, where is the murders he ordered that he enjoyed so much? Even Cersie doesnt claim he raped her. 

 

Killing orphans?? You mean Danny and Viserys TARGARYAN? The two people who were literally plotting to cross the narrow sea and retake the Iron Throne? Btw with a dothraki hoard who would rape, enslave, and murder who ever wasnt safe behind a castle wall. 

 

He screams and hollars obscenities at people who don't follow his orders? Well ya he is the KING his subjects are supppse to obey, beating Cersie was wrong but man its Cersie I don't feel to bad but he deffinitly was wrong in that in every way. 

And that's just it. His fixation with eradicating Targaryens isn't just about politics. It's a fixation that he has with murdering the last of the line that he blames for taking something that was never actually his.

The key word in that is fixation. He still dreams about killing Rhaegar, despite the time that has passed; he still sends assassins after a pair of orphans who pose no threat to him (they're living off the charity of others). He beats and rapes his wife- which is something we don't see from anyone else, aside from the depraved and insane.

Maybe everyone else's threshold for what qualifies as madness or mental disorder is MUCH higher than my own.

I'd put the threshold somewhere near rape and constantly hunting a pair of children. Clearly the goalpost is a bit further for everyone else.

My bad.

[Jon_Stargaryen]

19 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes, but Bob wasn't mad. He was a lot of negative things, but crazy was not one of them 

So what. Bob was wrong and ned was right. That does not mean bob was crazy in any way. Bob was scared of a potential rival. Scared does not equal crazy 

Yes, that is what Bob was scared of. He was scared that somehow the most legendary fighters in all of essos would cross the sea, crush his lickspittle forces and take him down.  That is a valid fear, and it does not make him crazy 

Until he did care, and promised to take his army to westeros 

So basically you're saying Robert's obsession with destroying House Targaryen brought about his own doom?

Cool.

[Jon_Stargaryen]

7 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Yes, he threatened a man who refused to poison a pregnant teenager but let's not forget that there is a thing called context.  He threatened Ned because Ned refused to follow Robert's order to carry out a political assassination.  Daenerys is only fourteen and, as you pointed out, she is pregnant but her pregnancy actually increases the threat to Robert's rule in Westeros.  Viserys and Daenerys were very little threat at all when they were homeless and wandering Essos looking for support but now she has married a Dothraki warlord with many thousands of mounted warriors under his command.  It could be argued that Viserys and Daenerys have a better claim to the Throne than Robert does so the last thing he wants is for them to cross the narrow sea with an invading force.  If Daenerys has a silver-haired child with purple eyes it only adds to her threat to the throne.  From a strategic perspective he would eliminating a threat to his rule and a potential and costly enemy invasion and he would be achieving it with very little risk to his person or his realm.  I was glad when Ned refused to co-operate but I can certainly see why Robert would want her removed from the equation. 

So, what you're saying is Aerys was in the right for demanding Ned and Robert's heads?

[Back door hodor]

16 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 

Rape is not about madness. It is about power

Agreed....

Also, Dani was no longer a child, she was a queen, a queen with an army and a claim to the throne.

[Varysblackfyre321]

No. He's a violent drunken obese brute. He's not mad.

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

So basically you're saying Robert's obsession with destroying House Targaryen brought about his own doom?

Cool.

Nice try bucko, but like your madness claim, this fails miserably too.
His downfall was his drunkenness. He was never king material, he was a fighter and whoremonger. The duties of kingship were too much for him and when he had Jon Arryn as his hand, his "rule" was effective. After Jon was killed, everything went south. He was susceptible to the manipulations of the Lannisters, specifically his wife. There was no curb on his drinking and whoring, and when the opportunity presented itself, his wife was able to have her cousin give him enough wine to make him fail at the boar hunt and he died. His obsession with the targs was a minor issue in a long list of failings that Bob had, none of which include "madness"
Next. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Back door hodor said:

Agreed....

Also, Dani was no longer a child, she was a queen, a queen with an army and a claim to the throne.

barely a queen, but a queen nonetheless 

[Varysblackfyre321]

16 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Roose was accepted by Ned and Robb Stark, whilst he was committing said rapes. Hell Robb made Roose his defacto second in command. The Umbers also allegedly partake in First Night, though I have reason to be skeptical of Roose' claims.

Ned would have gelded Roose if he the lord of the dreadfort was raping his peasant's women if he knew. Robb could not prove Roose did anything illegal-and he needed the man so yes he used him. 

The Umbers I totally buy being savage enough continue first night.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ned would have gelded Roose if he the lord of the dreadfort was raping his peasant's women if he knew. Robb could not prove Roose did anything illegal-and he needed the man so yes he used him. 

The Umbers I totally buy being savage enough continue first night.

Both of them would have. It doesn't stop the fact that both the Boltons and Umbers were used by Robb and Ned despite their rapine and rapacious ways. Robb knew Ramsay was a monster (Hornwood marriage, flaying theon, raping and hunting of women) yet did nothing when told Ramsay was not only alive but 'rescued' the people from Winterfell.

[Stormking902]

And to be frank @Jon Stargaryen Robert was right about trying to kill Danny and her brother regardless of there age, she was marring a very powerful Dothraki lord with the hopes for an army to retake the IT. What comes with conquest? coutless lost lives and atrocities far worse then death, all avoided by killing a piece of shit prince and a child I call that a fair price. 

[Jon_Stargaryen]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Nice try bucko, but like your madness claim, this fails miserably too.
His downfall was his drunkenness. He was never king material, he was a fighter and whoremonger. The duties of kingship were too much for him and when he had Jon Arryn as his hand, his "rule" was effective. After Jon was killed, everything went south. He was susceptible to the manipulations of the Lannisters, specifically his wife. There was no curb on his drinking and whoring, and when the opportunity presented itself, his wife was able to have her cousin give him enough wine to make him fail at the boar hunt and he died. His obsession with the targs was a minor issue in a long list of failings that Bob had, none of which include "madness"
Next. 

I'm going to have to disagree.

Robert's obsession with destroying House Targaryen, in conjunction with his obsession with Lyanna was one of the main drivers of his ruin. His inability to focus on actually ruling (based on my interpretation) stems form the death of Lyanna, his {lost love}. This is also what fuels his hatred for House Targaryen and his zeal for their doom.

An obsession which clouds his judgement beyond reason (especially when you take into consideration that neither had a hand in anything that happened).

[Jon_Stargaryen]

13 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

And to be frank @Jon Stargaryen Robert was right about trying to kill Danny and her brother regardless of there age, she was marring a very powerful Dothraki lord with the hopes for an army to retake the IT. What comes with conquest? coutless lost lives and atrocities far worse then death, all avoided by killing a piece of shit prince and a child I call that a fair price. 

The argument that you're making could be used to justify Aerys demanding Robert and Ned's heads. You do realize this, right.

By saying Robert was right, you're actually saying Aerys was right.

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 minute ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

I'm going to have to disagree.

I bet you will. And your disagreement will falter again as it seems you are only repeating what you have already stated. 

1 minute ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Robert's obsession with destroying House Targaryen, in conjunction with his obsession with Lyanna was one of the main drivers of his ruin. His inability to focus on actually ruling (based on my interpretation) stems form the death of Lyanna, his {lost love}. This is also what fuels his hatred for House Targaryen and his zeal for their doom.

If you would read the book again with a focus on Bob, you would see his obsession with destroying the last targs are a minor footnote in his rule. There was one bit early on talking about killing Rhaegar and one bit later about Killing Dany. That is it. Aside from that, we have his hand uncovering his wife's treachery and infidelity. We have the plot of his bastard Heirs. We have a plot by littlefinger that killed his first hand, we have a plot by Cersei, originally kill him in a tourney melee, and later to kill him on a boar hunt.  The literal actual downfall came from his twincesting wife who plotted to kill him.
His lost love was never a love. He didn't know her and she did not know him. He claims a great love for her, but he could not keep his soon to be royal member in his soon to be royal pants. You are correct about the connection between the loss of his betrothed and his hatred for the targs, but that is not madness. That is literally 1+1=2.  The only true love Bob ever had was fighting. Nothing more and nothing less

9 minutes ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

An obsession which clouds his judgement beyond reason (especially when you take into consideration that neither had a hand in anything that happened).

 His obsession did not cloud his judgement in any way. He picked an able and accomplished ruler as his hand. He took a marriage to the most powerful house in westeros. She showed great compassion to people like Ser Barristan, whom he could have killed, Jamie or Varys who he pardoned. None of that is a sign of madness. Lyanna was and is a fantasy for him. A yearning for a time when the world was ahead of him, instead of a weight that burdened him. In an early Ned chapter he talked about leaving the throne and heading to Esos to fight battles after riding ahead of the party. He hates his life as king. That is not madness, it is regret. 

[Stormking902]

8 minutes ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

The argument that you're making could be used to justify Aerys demanding Robert and Ned's heads. You do realize this, right.

By saying Robert was right, you're actually saying Aerys was right.

Ok what???????

There are huge differences in this comparison a few being Robert and Ned were Aerys bannerman both from Great houses who rule entire kingdoms, Aerys as there lawful king owes them at the very least a trial to determin guilt. To just demand there heads is unlawful to the fullest extreme and goes against Aerys duty as king of Westeros. Danny and Viserys are NOT Roberts bannerman they are exiled to Essos and technically wanted by the crown, Robert knew Danny and Viserys were is Essos and did NOTHING at all to hunt them down untill Jorah Mormont informed Robert that Danny was marring Drogo. If Robert was so blood thirsty for Targs why wait so long? Did he forget about them ? I think not. 

 

Also killing Danny and Viserys erases all problems, killing Robert and Ned just creates HUGE problems like for instance the North and Stormlands rising against you. Benjen would marry Cat, Stannis would marry Cersie and BOOM Stannis rebellion happens and Aerys still loses lol. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

8 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Ok what???????

There are huge differences in this comparison a few being Robert and Ned were Aerys bannerman both from Great houses who rule entire kingdoms, Aerys as there lawful king owes them at the very least a trial to determin guilt. To just demand there heads is unlawful to the fullest extreme and goes against Aerys duty as king of Westeros. Danny and Viserys are NOT Roberts bannerman they are exiled to Essos and technically wanted by the crown, Robert knew Danny and Viserys were is Essos and did NOTHING at all to hunt them down untill Jorah Mormont informed Robert that Danny was marring Drogo. If Robert was so blood thirsty for Targs why wait so long? Did he forget about them ? I think not. 

Another thing being neither of them had literally anything to do with Brandon's crime. Even if you think Robert and Rickard were trying to overthrow Aerys, which has no actual support, how on god's green Earth does Ned get the death sentence or even accused of anything?

[Light a wight tonight]

On 3/11/2018 at 7:50 AM, Jon_Stargaryen said:

He also raped and beat his wife and sent assassins after children (from what Viserys has said, and what we saw him do in his Ned chapters).

 

Still short of madness, whatever your opinion. "Sent assassins after children" is a reductio ad absurdum. He didn't send some guys out to kill "children"; the young Targs were threats to his reign and would be as long as they were alive. Cruelty but cold political sense. In fact he'd have to be mad not to consider this option. 

And I'd like to see someone try an insanity defense on charges of wife beating and/or spousal rape.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

4 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Still short of madness, whatever your opinion. "Sent assassins after children" is a reductio ad absurdum. He didn't send some guys out to kill "children"; the young Targs were threats to his reign and would be as long as they were alive.

Plus, you know, that never happened, until the events of AGOT. It doesn't take an extremely observant reader to conclude that Viserys was full of shit.

[Jon_Stargaryen]

47 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

His obsession did not cloud his judgement in any way. He picked an able and accomplished ruler as his hand. He took a marriage to the most powerful house in westeros. She showed great compassion to people like Ser Barristan, whom he could have killed, Jamie or Varys who he pardoned. None of that is a sign of madness. Lyanna was and is a fantasy for him. A yearning for a time when the world was ahead of him, instead of a weight that burdened him. In an early Ned chapter he talked about leaving the throne and heading to Esos to fight battles after riding ahead of the party. He hates his life as king. That is not madness, it is regret. 

I wouldn't call Jon Arryn/Ned Stark able or accomplished. Both of them were shit as Hand.

Also, none of them were Targaryens, and his instability is fairly specific.

He married Cersei because Jon Arryn said so (which is one of his few competent acts as Hand).

47 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Ok what???????

There are huge differences in this comparison a few being Robert and Ned were Aerys bannerman both from Great houses who rule entire kingdoms, Aerys as there lawful king owes them at the very least a trial to determin guilt. To just demand there heads is unlawful to the fullest extreme and goes against Aerys duty as king of Westeros. Danny and Viserys are NOT Roberts bannerman they are exiled to Essos and technically wanted by the crown, Robert knew Danny and Viserys were is Essos and did NOTHING at all to hunt them down untill Jorah Mormont informed Robert that Danny was marring Drogo. If Robert was so blood thirsty for Targs why wait so long? Did he forget about them ? I think not. 

 

Also killing Danny and Viserys erases all problems, killing Robert and Ned just creates HUGE problems like for instance the North and Stormlands rising against you. Benjen would marry Cat, Stannis would marry Cersie and BOOM Stannis rebellion happens and Aerys still loses lol. 

Simple.

You're sentencing an unrelated party to death, due to your paranoia that they may be plotting against you.

Ned's older brother originally rose in rebellion, demanding Rhaegar's head in the middle of Aerys' court, and Rickard (if memory serves) was one of the lords suspected of plotting against the crown. It's a logical conclusion that Ned will attempt to take recompense for his fallen kin once he learns of this and Robert will likely follow, due to Brandon's reason for committing treason. It makes perfect sense to demand their heads from a lord who had- until this point- been loyal to the crown.

Killing Ned and Robert solves a lot. Robert was considered a peerless warrior and easy to befriend, and Ned was a capable Battle commander. What made the rebellion work was that the three main houses involved had such a cohesive bond.

Take out Robert and Ned and you're left with Stannis- who barely ever smiles and is uninspiring- and Benjen- a child that is untested in battle and would likely die in his first engagement.