Is Robert Baratheon another Mad King?

[Varysblackfyre321]

13 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes really. It is called diplomacy. Research on it and why it is important and why say, bringing the bones of a dead prince home would do something to ease the call for war

Pouring a cup of water on a house on fire. Diplomacy is important. However Delivering bones of a loved one didn't somehow cool the Dornish want for revenge. It was expected. Not doing so would have certianly tossed gas on the fire but, doing so didn't somehow make the Dornish closer to being ready to forgive and forget.

20 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes really, and it is "Moot" not mute. And yes, there would be people who would refuse a marriage offer from the king. 

Grammar nazi much? Do you also get heated when people use "than" when they mean then? And yes there would be people who'd refuse- idiots and people who clearly don't value increasing or maintaining their houses status.  Tywin not being of the few idiots who'd say no to the marriage offer. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

44 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Doran definitely made the Dornish bend to his will. Who do you think pointed out to him that Dorne would be crushed if they raised another army in rebellion to Robert? After losing 10k men --a large portion of their fighting strength -- they would not be doing too well to fight. If Arryn had really nothing to do or could do nothing, Oberyn would not have been writing letters and sent messengers to raise Dorne's banners. Doran would have stopped that before it started.

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Or Oberyn had done this without Doran's knowledge or Doran had figured out himself given the Dornish's chance for victory at the moment isn't hard to discern. I imagine simple math isn't a struggle for the man.  

44 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

How is his house going to be jeopardized if he refuses a marriage to Robert. Robert let all his enemies remain with their lands and titles. Tywin's men handed him the capital and single-handedly assured a smooth (or as smooth as one can get in rebellion) succession to his crown. Jaime killed the man who wanted Robert dead. The dragons were gone. How and why could Robert even begin to justify killing Jaime, let alone crushing the Lannisters for saying no?

Tywin would be basicly saying the new reigning monarch is unsuitable. Unworthy, an inferior. Tywin could be argued to need to be made an example of-Dorne still wants for blood for Ellia and her babes, Ned wants justice for Ellia and her babes.  Jaimie sullied his vows to his previous King by murdering him, that alone is cause for execution. War is the worst case-best case, likely their political influence is stunted possibly as long as a Baratheon sits on the throne and always viewed as potential enemies for when Robert and many of his heirs sit on the IT.. How does refusing the offer make Jaimie able to play heir? How does marrying off Cersi to Robert somehow limit Tywin's options to pick an heir anymore than it was before?

[Varysblackfyre321]

42 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Ask Olenna

Renly wasn't King-he was a rebel who failed in his attempt of usurpation.

[Universal Sword Donor]

20 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Renly wasn't King-he was a rebel who failed in his attempt of usurpation.

No but Olenna refused the betrothal of a ruling king.

[Universal Sword Donor]

23 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Or Oberyn had done this without Doran's knowledge or Doran had figured out himself given the Dornish's chance for victory at the moment isn't hard to discern. I imagine simple math isn't a struggle for the man.  

“Your father and I worked more closely than you know … but now he is gone. ”

Sure Doran didn't know.

23 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tywin would be basicly saying the new reigning monarch is unsuitable. Unworthy, an inferior. Tywin could be argued to need to be made an example of-Dorne still wants for blood for Ellia and her babes, Ned wants justice for Ellia and her babes.  Jaimie sullied his vows to his previous King by murdering him, that alone is cause for execution. War is the worst case-best case, likely their political influence is stunted possibly as long as a Baratheon sits on the throne and always viewed as potential enemies for when Robert and many of his heirs sit on the IT.. How does refusing the offer make Jaimie able to play heir? How does marrying off Cersi to Robert somehow limit Tywin's options to pick an heir anymore than it was before?

If you can point out when Robert actually killed an ally for an insult, that would be a start. If you can point out where Robert executed an enemy or refused to accept their surrender, that would be a start. I am not holding my breath.

Marrying Cersei to Robert makes his primary heir the queen and possibly a hostage, assuming Jaime goes to the wall or is executed. If they have one child, he will be king and she won't be lady of the rock. Either way it's all academic, he easily could have. Marrying Cersei to him was the smart thing to do and with someone like Robert, Jaime was never going to the wall. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

51 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

No but Olenna refused the betrothal of a ruling king.

No she didn't-she probably poisoned the ruling king but the bethrohdal to Joffery she never claimed she personally was against.

Quite possible he didn't-just because they're conspiring together with one specific goal doesn't mean they relay every action they take with each other. 

45 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If you can point out when Robert actually killed an ally for an insult, that would be a start. If you can point out where Robert executed an enemy or refused to accept their surrender, that would be a start. I am not holding my breath.

 

The lanisters aren't really an ally at this point are they? They came gave Robert KL, true, however they never helped win any battles and prior to the marriage never brokered a deal to which says they are allies. Their position is fragile. Tywin's crimes are known. Tywin would be a fool to risk his head and family's security by taking the risk because as of yet Robert not killing over an insult. To be clear this isn't just an insult; it's a public declaration of feeling the new monarch is too much an inferior to have a marriage proposal. Again war, worst case scenario-the best(and likeliest), would be the lanisters lose a lot of their political influence, and sway having lost all favor with the ruling monarchy.

45 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Marrying Cersi to Robert makes his primary heir the queen and possibly a hostage, assuming Jaime goes to the wall or is executed. If they have one child, he will be king and she won't be lady of the rock. Either way it's all academic, he easily could have. Marrying Cersei to him was the smart thing to do and with someone like Robert, Jaime was never going to the wall. 

"Primary heir", you do realize Cersi comes below Tyrion in who gets the Rock right? And her gender makes her just as preferable to succeed Tywin as Tyrion.  He easily could have said no he'd just be an idiot to do so. How does saying no to the proposal increase the chance of Jaimie being able to play Tywin's heir?

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No she didn't-she probably poisoned the ruling king but the bethrohdal to Joffery she never claimed she personally was against.

I'm talking about Aegon V, not Joff

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Quite possible he didn't-just because they're conspiring together with one specific goal doesn't mean they relay every action they take with each other. 

If he didn't, then, Jon must really have made an impact telling Doran that his brother was fomenting rebellion. Glad we're not thinking differently.

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The lanisters aren't really an ally at this point are they? They came gave Robert KL, true, however they never helped win any battles and prior to the marriage never brokered a deal to which says they are allies. Their position is fragile. Tywin's crimes are known. Tywin would be a fool to risk his head and family's security by taking the risk because as of yet Robert not killing over an insult. To be clear this isn't just an insult; it's a public declaration of feeling the new monarch is too much an inferior to have a marriage proposal. Again war, worst case scenario-the best(and likeliest), would be the lanisters lose a lot of their political influence, and sway having lost all favor with the ruling monarchy.

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children."

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"Primary heir", you do realize Cersi comes below Tyrion in who gets the Rock right? And her gender makes her just as preferable to succeed Tywin as Tyrion.  He easily could have said no he'd just be an idiot to do so. How does saying no to the proposal increase the chance of Jaimie being able to play Tywin's heir?

Tywin does not want Tyrion to be alive, let alone be his heir. 

"The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It's past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir."

Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. "Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

 

"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

[Geddus]

7 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

No but Olenna refused the betrothal of a ruling king.

Wasn't Egg's son who didn't want to marry her because he preferred men?

[the trees have eyes]

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Both Wolsley and Cromwell frequently 'managed' Henry. They were able to make him listen and understand, their failings were on Henry's heart, with Wolsley failing to get the correct dispensation from the Pope and Cromwell arranging a marriage to suit his own factional desires. 

And both men had to appease the Pope as well as the King, had to appease other European monarchs, were men of low birth with no power of their own (they have more in common with Littlefinger, Davos or Baath than they do Arryn) and a King who was a romantic rather than one who was happy shagging anything that moved and held no deep attachment to any of them. 

The Hand of the King, especially Hand's who are hugely powerful Lords in their own right, are really nothing like the King's men of Henry's court, men who were despised by the nobility and had everyone against them with only Henry propping them up. Their positions are only similar on the surface level.

I agree that Wolsey and Cromwell had a very different background and status to Jon Arryn or Ned but that only goes to illustrate how their poistions - and that of Hand unless you reject the analogy - and the extent to which the Hand is deputised to rule is entirely dependent on the King. 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Hand is supposed to co rule. Arryn was not allowed to a Robert simply did what he wanted, which was to ignore responsibilities. 

Arryn and Ned were not brought to serve as Hand, they were brought to Kings Landing to coddle a King, neither were good Hands.

The one time Ned looks or acts like a co-ruler or a surrogate fo Robert is when Robert decides to go hunting, other than that he is simply another councillor with a fancy title who Robert will ignore or task with certain duties as he sees fit.  There is no contract of employment for the Hand or job description which we can measure him against, what he does and how he serves depends entirely on the person of the monarch and the relationship they build.  And so Ned spends his time in KL looking into Jon Arryn's murder not ruling on Robert's behalf (the hunting trip aside).

For me, expecting Jon Arryn to rein in Robert's spending is like expecting Tillerson to rein in Trump's foreign (un)policy and (un)diplomacy or Kelly to put an end to policy statements by tweet.  There is a limit to what they can do and if they push too hard or steer in a different direction they will be out of a job (as Tillerson has just found out).

The main problems at the end of Robert's reign were the Crown's debt (which in itself is not a huge issue, look at the national debts and budget deficits countries routinely have) and a succession crisis.  Neither of these things were within Jon Arryn's power to prevent. We may as well expect Ned or Jon to control Robert's drinking and whoring as his spending, it's part of his character.

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Calling him average (mediocre)  is not harsh, it is what his performance warrants.

Unless there are any particular crises to manage it's hard for anyone to excel or screw up.  The realm needed to be bound together after the civil war and to have a period of peace and prosperity.  This is what happens, neither because of or in spite of Jon Arryn, though I happen to think he was shrewd enough to bind in the Lannisters and both threaten and appease the Martells to help secure that foundation.  He can't stop Doran and Oberyn wanting revenge for Elia or Cersei's incredible narcissism and treason laying the foundations of another civil war (that is human nature and controlling it is beyond anyone's diplomacy) but he seemed to do a good job.  There is no one at Court lampooning him or thinking badly of him the way Jaime did Aerys's Hands who succeeded his father and no popular celebrations or relief in Westeros at the demise of Jon Arryn and the end of his unpopular or harsh policies.  Sometimes setting and keeping the ship on a steady course after a storm is all that is needed.

[Universal Sword Donor]

7 hours ago, Geddus said:

Wasn't Egg's son who didn't want to marry her because he preferred men?

AWOIAF says Daeron called it off. Olenna says she did:

“They tried to marry me to a Targaryen once, but I soon put an end to that.”

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

didn't, then, Jon must really have made an impact telling Doran that his brother was fomenting rebellion. Glad we're not thinking differently.

Because, it's impossible for Doran to have found out this little sceme on his own? It's impossible for Doran to do basic math and realize how open warfare would be unwise, that for months of pondering a man like him wouldn't have arrived at such an obvious conclusion? There is only mention of Oberyn really trying to raise up rebellion-not Doran, likely because Oberyn was acting without Doran's  specific license.

 

11 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I'm talking about Aegon V, not Joff

Oh. Forgot that. She said she specificly tried every way to sabotage the agreement that stated she would marry Aegon's second son. Likely she's bullshiting to save face. She doesn't get to decide whom she will marry-her family's head does. Doubtful she could do anything. And if she did, she clearly cared little for her house's advancement and security-when it is quite apparent she does care a lot.

11 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

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Tywin does not want Tyrion to be alive, let alone be his heir. 

Who said Tywin wanted to be his heir? Again how does refusing the proposal get Tywin any closer to getting Jaimie back to play heir?

[Dorian Martell's son]

15 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Pouring a cup of water on a house on fire. Diplomacy is important. However Delivering bones of a loved one didn't somehow cool the Dornish want for revenge. It was expected. Not doing so would have certainly tossed gas on the fire but, doing so didn't somehow make the Dornish closer to being ready to forgive and forget.

No shit sherlock, but it did cool the cry for war.  There is no forgive and forget. Just read Tyrion 5 in storm. They still want justice/vengeance 

15 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Grammar nazi much? Do you also get heated when people use "than" when they mean then? And yes there would be people who'd refuse- idiots and people who clearly don't value increasing or maintaining their houses status.  Tywin not being of the few idiots who'd say no to the marriage offer. 

First of all, it's  "grammar alt-right" now. Regardless, it was Jon who brokered the marriage to the lannisters, instead of say, a vassal of the stormlands, or an ally in the north or the vale. That is the point 

[Chris Mormont]

Robert was not the Mad King, or anywhere close.  His blow up at Ned was nothing, yes he threatened to put his head on a spike, but he didn't even stop Ned from leaving the room.  And while Cersie didn't appear to want or like Robert sexually, and he didn't seem to exactly ask permission when he went to her bed chamber. 

 Aerys grew sexually abusive toward Rhaella, developing a sexual fetish for fire and death and only sleeping with Rhaella after he had executed someone by burning. The last time was during Robert's Rebellion after Aerys burned his then-Hand, Lord Qarlton Chelsted, for opposing the Mad King's wildfire plot. Jaime recalls listening to Rhaella cry as the king raped her; when Jaime protested that the Kingsguard were sworn to defend the queen as well, Ser Jon Darry replied, "We are, but not from him". The queen's maids reported seeing scratches, bruises and bite marks all over her body.

[Universal Sword Donor]

19 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Because, it's impossible for Doran to have found out this little sceme on his own? It's impossible for Doran to do basic math and realize how open warfare would be unwise, that for months of pondering a man like him wouldn't have arrived at such an obvious conclusion? There is only mention of Oberyn really trying to raise up rebellion-not Doran, likely because Oberyn was acting without Doran's  specific license.

Then someone needed to come to Doran and tell him that Oberyn was fomenting rebellion and to stop that shit. Enter Jon Arryn with a conciliatory gesture!

19 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Oh. Forgot that. She said she specificly tried every way to sabotage the agreement that stated she would marry Aegon's second son. Likely she's bullshiting to save face. She doesn't get to decide whom she will marry-her family's head does. Doubtful she could do anything. And if she did, she clearly cared little for her house's advancement and security-when it is quite apparent she does care a lot.

So there is no precedent for refusing a marriage by the crown until I present one and then it doesn't matter? Sounds about right

“They tried to marry me to a Targaryen once, but I soon put an end to that.”

She says this as she's basically deciding whether or not she wants to reject Joffrey as a marriage option. Granted her version of rejecting it is murdering Joffrey and having Marg marry Tommen, but the underlying concept is the same. Her rejecting a gay Daeron as an option when the crown doesn't need the marriage and she really doesn't want it seems the most likely outcome there. 

19 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Who said Tywin wanted to be his heir? Again how does refusing the proposal get Tywin any closer to getting Jaimie back to play heir?

Who's heir would Tywin be? Did you mean Tyrion? Tyrion would be the #1 option for heir if Robert is nasty and kills Jaime or makes him take the black and he marries Cersei. You're really mistaking the power dynamic between Robert and Tywin anyway. Jon Arryn told Robert to marry Cersei to cement Tywin's allegiance, which we know per Tywin's words Robert already had.

“ Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father’s throne”

 The decision to pardon Jaime for killing Aerys happened long before the marriage occurred. 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

On 3/11/2018 at 11:02 AM, Unacosamedarisa said:

The raping of his wife is, as others have said, not considered such in Westeros.

Sending assassins after children was because of the threat posed by the Targaryen line... Robert is, essentially, a usurper. The Targaryens have a claim to the throne, a claim which would threaten Robert and his family. He also seems to have an irrational hatred for the Targaryens, due to what he feels Rhaegar did to Lyanna... but plenty of people in the books, and in our own world, hold irrational beliefs, but that doesn't make them Mad. The murder of children was also something he repented upon near his death. A "Mad King" would have kept on about killing the Dragonspawn right up until his final breath, as Aerys did with his "burn them all" schtick. 

Robert was a bad man, and a bad King, but I'm not seeing any signs of madness. 

Quick question, but how is rape not considered such in Westeros, when rape was essentially a major point of Roberts Rebellion?

[Varysblackfyre321]

50 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Then someone needed to come to Doran and tell him that Oberyn was fomenting rebellion and to stop that shit. Enter Jon Arryn with a conciliatory gesture!

Yes someone probably told Doran. Doran's spies,lords in Dorne, Jon Arryn by no means would be the only one with this information.

50 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

So there is no precedent for refusing a marriage by the crown until I present one and then it doesn't matter? Sounds about right

Again, bullshiting is almost certianly what she's doing. She claims she tried to get the marriage arrangement. The crown said Daeron broke it off through coming out for his male lover. She clearly would not be in the position to do much to sabotage any efforts to marry her off, at the very least without hurting her house-which I doubt she'd do that. I freely admit there are idiots and people who care not for their family who'd refuse. Perhaps Olenna was one of them.

 

50 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

She says this as she's basically deciding whether or not she wants to reject Joffrey as a marriage option. Granted her version of rejecting it is murdering Joffrey and having Marg marry Tommen, but the underlying concept is the same. Her rejecting a gay Daeron as an option when the crown doesn't need the marriage and she really doesn't want it seems the most likely outcome there. 

She "allowed" Joffery to wed Margary. 

 

50 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Who's heir would Tywin be? Did you mean Tyrion? Tyrion would be the #1 option for heir if Robert is nasty and kills Jaime or makes him take the black and he marries Cersei. You're really mistaking the power dynamic between Robert and Tywin anyway. Jon Arryn told Robert to marry Cersei to cement Tywin's allegiance, which we know per Tywin's words Robert already had.

Yes Tyrion. Tyrion is Tywin's direct heir so long as Jaimie remains in the king's guard, Cersi's bethrodal does not effect that.  How does refusing the marriage get Jaimie closer to being able to play heir? And how exactly have I shown to be mistaking the power Dynamic between Robert and Tywin?

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No shit sherlock, but it did cool the cry for war.  There is no forgive and forget. Just read Tyrion 5 in storm. They still want justice/vengeance 

First of all, it's  "grammar alt-right" now. Regardless, it was Jon who brokered the marriage to the lannisters, instead of say, a vassal of the stormlands, or an ally in the north or the vale. That is the point 

And to achieve Justice/vengeance they want to go about it through going to war-their lust for it has no cooled since they heard of what happened to Ellia and her children. 

Yes Jon brokered a marriage with the Lannisters. Whoope doo. It's not really that an impressive feat. 

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I agree that Wolsey and Cromwell had a very different background and status to Jon Arryn or Ned but that only goes to illustrate how their poistions - and that of Hand unless you reject the analogy - and the extent to which the Hand is deputised to rule is entirely dependent on the King. 

I kind of do reject it. The Hand seems to have a different power level to the powers that Cromwell and Wolsely had. When Henry was in France the rule of the kingdom was left to Katherine and Howard rather than Wolsey. 

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The one time Ned looks or acts like a co-ruler or a surrogate fo Robert is when Robert decides to go hunting, other than that he is simply another councillor with a fancy title who Robert will ignore or task with certain duties as he sees fit.  There is no contract of employment for the Hand or job description which we can measure him against, what he does and how he serves depends entirely on the person of the monarch and the relationship they build.  And so Ned spends his time in KL looking into Jon Arryn's murder not ruling on Robert's behalf (the hunting trip aside).

This is as true of Ned and Jon as it is every other Hand. It is those I am comparing them to and Arryn comes off as an average Hand of the King. 

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The main problems at the end of Robert's reign were the Crown's debt (which in itself is not a huge issue, look at the national debts and budget deficits countries routinely have) and a succession crisis.  Neither of these things were within Jon Arryn's power to prevent. We may as well expect Ned or Jon to control Robert's drinking and whoring as his spending, it's part of his character.

They would be in his remit. Him choosing to ignore these issues is a failing in his job which has resulted in the break down of Robert's dynasty. 

17 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

His subtle clue was because he knew he was poisoned and did not want to endanger those close to him 

No, that makes no sense as why would he give a 'clue' in the first place? That only alerts the people who already knew about it in the fist place which would still endanger his family. 

Jon had not yet found the evidence he needed to say with certainty that all three of Cersei's children were bastards. He still only had his sususpicions and circumstantial evidence, the honourable Arryn realzed this. 

17 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 

I was not talking about Doran's  long game. I was talking about Oberyn's call for open immediate rebellion. We also do not have a timeline for when the dornish pact was signed. We only know if was before Darry died 

Doran makes it quite clear to his daughter, who was planning on overthrowing him, just how one sided a war with the crown would be. Doran was never going to go to war, he'd lock his brother up like he did his own daughter and nieces. 

17 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Bob could have picked marriage from one of the three allied kingdoms he fought with, or with a kingdom he fought against. But  he listened to Jon and took the arrainged union. 

Sure. How does this change the point I made? Robert was the most eligible bachelor in the land, finding him a wife was not difficult. 

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

17 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Quick question, but how is rape not considered such in Westeros, when rape was essentially a major point of Roberts Rebellion?

Well honestly it wasn't that big of a point except maybe in creating a narrative. Robert nor the Starks rebelled until Aerys demanded demanded the heads of Nedbert.

The impetus for the Lyanna/Rhaegar being called rape was because she was abducted/went with Rhaegar and she was betrothed to Robert -- this after the whole stink about the queen of love and beauty. Robert called it rape because there is "no way" Lyanna would ever wanna sleep with someone else. He is, after all, clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden’s fantasy. Ned goes along with it because it helps shield Jon (or something).

The expectation of of marriage means that the wife sleeps with the husband when he wants. We see this when Tywin chastises Tyrion for not giving him a grandchild: 

“Your sister swears she’s flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband.”

So what we consider spousal rape is just a husband 'exercising his rights.'

[Dorian Martell's son]

48 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And to achieve Justice/vengeance they want to go about it through going to war-their lust for it has no cooled since they heard of what happened to Ellia and her children. 

Yes Jon brokered a marriage with the Lannisters. Whoope doo. It's not really that an impressive feat. 

You keep repeating yourself without understanding what you are repeating. Nice