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Is Robert Baratheon another Mad King?

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55 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, that makes no sense as why would he give a 'clue' in the first place? That only alerts the people who already knew about it in the fist place which would still endanger his family. 

Jon had not yet found the evidence he needed to say with certainty that all three of Cersei's children were bastards. He still only had his sususpicions and circumstantial evidence, the honourable Arryn realzed this. 

It makes total sense. He did not want to endanger his family. The lannisters were the major force in the capitol. He did not have time to gather proof, gather his forces and present it to the very drunk king. Hence the clue. He read the same book as ned and came to the same conclusion 

55 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Doran makes it quite clear to his daughter, who was planning on overthrowing him, just how one sided a war with the crown would be. Doran was never going to go to war, he'd lock his brother up like he did his own daughter and nieces. 

Christ, I wish people read what they were responding to. Jon's trip to Dorne did not satiate the desire for justice or vengeance, but it did stem the calls for immediate war.  Oberyn was not locked up. He was traveling all over dorne trying making calls for open rebellion against Bob. That is what Jon stopped by bringing the home the bones of the prince.  

55 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. How does this change the point I made? Robert was the most eligible bachelor in the land, finding him a wife was not difficult. 

It doesn't change your point, but you are missing mine. It is not the eligibility that was the issue, it was the politics, and that was what Jon did. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

You keep repeating yourself without understanding what you are repeating. Nice 

So can you actually explain why it's an impressive feat for Arryn have gotten the lanisters to agree to being part of the new royal dynasty or?  It was a reasonble choice to be sure. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

So, you agree with me now! Holy crap!

So I'll take that as a no. Omg...never implied Jon was wrong for brokering this marriage. I'm pointing out  he doesn't applause for doing the obvious.  Literally any person with a fragment of common sense who doesn't want the king to fail likely would/could  have brokered the marriage alliance between house Lanister and Baratheon with absolute ease-seriously, most of the work would just come from delivering a letter with the proposal.. Jon doing this shouldn't be cited as reason he's not a shit hand. It literally just shows he didn't fuck up every simple task he'd have to do. 

 

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Jon had not yet found the evidence he needed to say with certainty that all three of Cersei's children were bastards. He still only had his sususpicions and circumstantial evidence, the honourable Arryn realzed this. 

Circumstantial evidence would be the most Arryn could reasonably hope.

Hmm, if Jon said "the people will loath you in the end" to Robert for when he demanded his big celebration do you think that might be effective? Robert does love to be loved. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Well honestly it wasn't that big of a point except maybe in creating a narrative. Robert nor the Starks rebelled until Aerys demanded demanded the heads of Nedbert.

The impetus for the Lyanna/Rhaegar being called rape was because she was abducted/went with Rhaegar and she was betrothed to Robert -- this after the whole stink about the queen of love and beauty. Robert called it rape because there is "no way" Lyanna would ever wanna sleep with someone else. He is, after all, clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden’s fantasy. Ned goes along with it because it helps shield Jon (or something).

The expectation of of marriage means that the wife sleeps with the husband when he wants. We see this when Tywin chastises Tyrion for not giving him a grandchild: 

“Your sister swears she’s flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband.”

So what we consider spousal rape is just a husband 'exercising his rights.'

Thats true. I should've worded it better, the rape accusation was a big part of Robert's narrative moreso than the war itself.

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Is Robert Baratheon another Mad King?

Nope but his reign caused more damage than all of the mad kings of the past added together.  I blame the Baratheons, Starks, Lannisters, Greyjoys, and Baelish for breaking up the union.  

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4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So I'll take that as a no. Omg...never implied Jon was wrong for brokering this marriage. I'm pointing out  he doesn't applause for doing the obvious.  Literally any person with a fragment of common sense who doesn't want the king to fail likely would/could  have brokered the marriage alliance between house Lanister and Baratheon with absolute ease-seriously, most of the work would just come from delivering a letter with the proposal.. Jon doing this shouldn't be cited as reason he's not a shit hand. It literally just shows he didn't fuck up every simple task he'd have to do. 

Your standards for fictional characters are strange 

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5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I kind of do reject it. The Hand seems to have a different power level to the powers that Cromwell and Wolsely had. When Henry was in France the rule of the kingdom was left to Katherine and Howard rather than Wolsey. 

This is as true of Ned and Jon as it is every other Hand. It is those I am comparing them to and Arryn comes off as an average Hand of the King. 

They would be in his remit. Him choosing to ignore these issues is a failing in his job which has resulted in the break down of Robert's dynasty.

Howard as in the duke of Norfolk?  He's at the equivalent level of nobility as Jon Arryn but he lost favour with Henry and ended up in the Tower of London.  He only kept his head because Henry died before he got round to having him executed.  As to the office of Hand there is no direct equivalent in medieval history so any analogy is imperfect: the king's chief councillor and chosen deputy in certain matters or when the king is absent seems the best fit to me. 

Either way I don't see any of Wolsey, Cromwell or Norfolk having a remit to tell Heny not to eat, drink and spend so much.  They could counsel him to do that but it's utterly beyond their power to "manage" him.  We'll have to disagree here.

Maybe modern politics gives the impression that a chief of staff or spin doctor tells a president / leader an uncomfortable truth behind closed doors and works hand in glove on what policy should be and then implementing it but in a more hierarchical society that professes the divine right to rule of kings there is no partnership or dialogue along the same lines.  The Hand takes the shit when the king eats as one Bobby B said.  He does not manage the monarch.

Robert's dynasty broke down because of Robert. Blaming Jon for Robert being a borderline alcoholic is putting the blame in the wrong place.  Ned found the same thing when Robert's response to four of his men being killed in the streets was to go hunting because facing up to the problems was too much for him.  Honestly I don't see anyone being able to turn Robert into a better king.  It's a thankless and likely impossible task.

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16 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

AWOIAF says Daeron called it off. Olenna says she did:

“They tried to marry me to a Targaryen once, but I soon put an end to that.”

Yeah, I know but that's her version and she could easily be twisting the tale, the guy isn't around to contradict her after all. She has reasons for lying, the maester writing AWOIAF doesn't and prince Daeron was homosexual; we also have Barristan recalling that all of Egg's sons broke their bethrotals, if I'm not mistaken, so I think it's likely that it was him who refused to marry her, not the other way around.

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13 hours ago, Geddus said:

Yeah, I know but that's her version and she could easily be twisting the tale, the guy isn't around to contradict her after all. She has reasons for lying, the maester writing AWOIAF doesn't and prince Daeron was homosexual; we also have Barristan recalling that all of Egg's sons broke their bethrotals, if I'm not mistaken, so I think it's likely that it was him who refused to marry her, not the other way around.

It's also important to recognize whose she's speaking to; Sansa who recently had her marriage arrangement with King Joffery broken-Ladies are taught since they could absorb information on what they should hope for; marrying a powerful man to increase their family's standing and Bear him worthy heirs to do her house proud. Marrying a king is what the typical noble unwed girl should dream of. Perhaps she wanted to make Sansa feel a little less bad-or increase her standing in the girl's eyes.

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i always assumed that Daeron was the one who broke his engagement with Olenna.  Especially since the Tyrells were scheming to have Marg be queen.  Olenna is lying.  To herself most likely.  Her ego was bruised. 

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23 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Howard as in the duke of Norfolk?  He's at the equivalent level of nobility as Jon Arryn but he lost favour with Henry and ended up in the Tower of London. 

Yes, much, much later. During much of Henry's reign he was the most powerful Lord of the ream, while Henry was in France it was Katherine and Howard who ran the country and it was Howard who was able to marry one of his own to both Henry Fitzroy (who would have been King had he lived and Henry not had a son) and the King himself. 

23 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

He only kept his head because Henry died before he got round to having him executed. 

Not sure what his has to do with my point? Ned actually did lose his head, so not sure why Howard almost losing his disqualifies him from the comparison I made 

23 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Either way I don't see any of Wolsey, Cromwell or Norfolk having a remit to tell Heny not to eat, drink and spend so much.  They could counsel him to do that but it's utterly beyond their power to "manage" him.  We'll have to disagree here.

That is what managing someone is. It is not directly telling them they have to do something, but influencing them. Wolsely was actually very good at this, Cromwell when it came to matters of money, power and influence was also very good at this. The only matter that Henry was hard to manage was in the ways of the heart and it cost both Cromwell, Wolsely and Moore (his other secretary) their lives. 

23 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Maybe modern politics gives the impression that a chief of staff or spin doctor tells a president / leader an uncomfortable truth behind closed doors and works hand in glove on what policy should be and then implementing it but in a more hierarchical 

Not just modern politics. David Starkey, Alison Weir and Tracey Boorman all detail on how Henry could be managed. Off the top of my head, its been a few years since I last read these three on Henry, the Field of the Cloth of Gold involved a lot of management on the King from Wolsey to get him to agree to the compromises made, all because Wolsey had one eye on an even bigger prize than serving the King. 

23 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Robert's dynasty broke down because of Robert. Blaming Jon for Robert being a borderline alcoholic is putting the blame in the wrong place. 

You might be confusing me for someone else. Not once have I blamed Jon for that.

23 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Ned found the same thing when Robert's response to four of his men being killed in the streets was to go hunting because facing up to the problems was too much for him.  Honestly I don't see anyone being able to turn Robert into a better king.  It's a thankless and likely impossible task.

How does that dispute my argument that Jon was an average Hand?

 

On 14/03/2018 at 7:34 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

It makes total sense.

No, it does not. If he did not want to endanger his family he would have said nothing. The Lannisters are going to be the ones who make most sense of Arryn's last words, people who had no idea about his investigation, such as his wife, are likely to come to some other conclusion. 

 

On 14/03/2018 at 7:34 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

 

Christ, I wish people read what they were responding to. Jon's trip to Dorne did not satiate the desire for justice or vengeance, but it did stem the calls for immediate war.  Oberyn was not locked up. He was traveling all over dorne trying making calls for open rebellion against Bob. That is what Jon stopped by bringing the home the bones of the prince.  

Arryn stopped nothing, Doran makes it quite clear the Dorne simply did not have the means to go to war against the Crown. 

Had Jon done nothing there still would not have been a war. 

On 14/03/2018 at 7:34 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

It doesn't change your point, but you are missing mine. It is not the eligibility that was the issue, it was the politics, and that was what Jon did. 

eh? Tywin was well known to be desperate to have his daughter marry royalty, Robert was now royalty. 

I think your claim that Arryn arranging this wedding as some kind of evidence that he was somehow better than average as a Hand is dubious at best. 

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14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You might be confusing me for someone else. Not once have I blamed Jon for that.

You're right.  I was confusing you with this guy:

On 14/03/2018 at 6:37 PM, Bernie Mac said:

They would be in his remit. Him choosing to ignore these issues is a failing in his job which has resulted in the break down of Robert's dynasty.

I think you can see why I would confuse the "two" of you.

I happen to think Jon Arryn was a pretty good Hand who could not control Robert's spending, not that that made any real difference to the establishment of the Barratheon dynasty in any case, any more than his drinking or sexual appetites.  I also reject the idea that the Hand is the king's minder / manager, he is an advisor / counsellor to a divinely favoured monarch to whom he owed his fealty and obedience. 

You feel differently.  Let's agree to disagree....

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Posted (edited)

Mad? Depends on how you mean, as was he insane? Well, he had outburst, it's not as rare as people make it out to be. An example i can think of is, a guy who worked for a company for maybe 25 years. About to retire etc, get's fired or something a few days away from it. Now some, people tend to have out burst over this. I mean, that sure is tough, if you're living pay check to pay check, but that's life, not madness. 

 

Now, if you mean mad as in. Robert was mad because he DESTROYED the prancing Skippy, dragon boy prince with his MAD hammer slamming it into that fruity harp players chest!iiiivvv!! Trying to save his kingdom AND HIS GIRL!? Then yes, he is mad.

Edited by Rikkisix

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On 3/11/2018 at 6:43 PM, Kandrax said:

You are right. Both Rhaenyra and Aegon II are called "mad Targs" on this forum, even though i can't find any evidence that they are less sane than anyone else.

Aerys 2, Aerion Brightflame were insane.  

Baelor was weird but no more than the High Sparrow.  Maegoar was cruel but so was Harren the Black, Theon the hungry wolf, and Wayman Manderly.  

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