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Are the extended seasons evidence of time loops?


Melifeather

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5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

By the time the Last Hero finds the Others his companions are dead.

And Waymar's 2 companions are still alive. 2, not 12. And they were killed by Giants, and Wights, and Others... Waymar is killed by an Other. Aside from the presence of Others, and the sword breaking, there's nothing else, really, that is the same. 

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

We are possibly being given what happened to the Last Hero when Ser Waymar fights them and dies. Perhaps the Last Hero did die?

The Last Hero did a lot more than just dying, apparently. Waymar just dies. 

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Bran said the Children helped him. Did they help him by resurrecting him to a different sort of life like Coldhands, or Beric Dondarrion, or Catelyn Stark?

Perhaps, but that isn't what happens to Waymar. 

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12 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

And Waymar's 2 companions are still alive. 2, not 12. And they were killed by Giants, and Wights, and Others... Waymar is killed by an Other. Aside from the presence of Others, and the sword breaking, there's nothing else, really, that is the same. 

The Last Hero did a lot more than just dying, apparently. Waymar just dies. 

Perhaps, but that isn't what happens to Waymar. 

No indeed, but perhaps that is the point. 

This overarching idea of a looping history wheel is theoretically a tool or weapon employed by the Children with the help of greenseers to put things to right. They believe they "broke" the planet and now they want to fix it. This will be Bran's job.

Edited to add: I forgot to follow up my thought about the point of Waymar dying. By resurrecting the Last Hero the Children set off a chain of events that led to the breaking of the world.

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17 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes. The repeating cycles of history go around like a wheel - the only thing different are the people it happens to.

Ok, very different from time loops. I know the thing we shall not mention had its own explanation, but I always figured the others invasions were cyclical and they were the ancient enemy of the children. Ice and death vs warmth and life. flowing brooks and streams vs cold and corpses. The children, before the coming of men would have been readily prepared to fight them.  A network that would allow the children to see the whole continent, the others vulnerability to obsidian, the children's magical wards that can stop the wights and others, but men cut down the trees and killed off the children, so when the others came, they were virtually unopposed by anyone, hence the journey of the last hero/Bran the builder 

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38 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

And the things that happen to them.

OK - I never was very good at sentence structure and getting my ideas across. Yes, all the things that happen to them. Different people living out or presented with the same situations - historical events - and how their choices end with a different result.

I think Tyrion's passage under the Bridge of Dream is an apt example of doing the same thing twice with very different results.

The first time passing under the bridge:

  Forty feet above, the stone men moaned and muttered beneath a flickering lamp. Most took no more notice of the Shy Maid than of a drifting log. Tyrion clutched his torch tighter and found that he was holding his breath. And then they were beneath the bridge, white walls heavy with curtains of grey fungus looming to either side, water foaming angrily around them. For a moment it looked as though they might crash into the right-hand pier, but Duck raised his pole and shoved off, back into the center of the channel, and a few heartbeats later they were clear.

The second time passing under the bridge:

  Up ahead, the stone men on the span began to wail. A few were pointing down at them. “Haldon, get the prince below,” commanded Griff.

  It was too late. The current had them in its teeth. They drifted inexorably toward the bridge. Yandry stabbed out with his pole to keep them from smashing into a pier. The thrust shoved them sideways, through a curtain of pale grey moss. Tyrion felt tendrils brush against his face, soft as a whore’s fingers. Then there was a crash behind him, and the deck tilted so suddenly that he almost lost his feet and went pitching over the side.

A stone man crashed down into the boat.

He landed on the cabin roof, so heavily that the Shy Maid seemed to rock, and roared a word down at them in a tongue that Tyrion did not know. A second stone man followed, landing back beside the tiller. The weathered planks splintered beneath the impact, and Ysilla let out a shriek.

Duck was closest to her. The big man did not waste time reaching for his sword. Instead he swung his pole, slamming it into the stone man’s chest and knocking him off the boat into the river, where he sank at once without a sound.

Griff was on the second man the instant he shambled down off the cabin roof. With a sword in his right hand and a torch in his left, he drove the creature backwards. As the current swept the Shy Maid beneath the bridge, their shifting shadows danced upon the mossy walls. When the stone man moved aft, Duck blocked his way, pole in hand. When he went forward, Haldon Halfmaester waved a second torch at him and drove him back. He had no choice but to come straight at Griff. The captain slid aside, his blade flashing. A spark flew where the steel bit into the stone man’s calcified grey flesh, but his arm tumbled to the deck all the same. Griff kicked the limb aside. Yandry and Duck had come up with their poles. Together they forced the creature over the side and into the black waters of the Rhoyne.

By then the Shy Maid had drifted out from under the broken bridge. “Did we get them all?” asked Duck.

“How many jumped?”

“Two,” said Tyrion, shivering.

“Three,” said Haldon. “Behind you.”

The dwarf turned, and there he stood.

The leap had shattered one of his legs, and a jagged piece of pale bone jutted out through the rotted cloth of his breeches and the grey meat beneath. The broken bone was speckled with brown blood, but still he lurched forward, reaching for Young Griff. His hand was grey and stiff, but blood oozed between his knuckles as he tried to close his fingers to grasp.....

36 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

No show talk here. 

Who is talking about the show? This is all from the books.

26 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Ok, very different from time loops. I know the thing we shall not mention had its own explanation, but I always figured the others invasions were cyclical and they were the ancient enemy of the children. Ice and death vs warmth and life. flowing brooks and streams vs cold and corpses. The children, before the coming of men would have been readily prepared to fight them.  A network that would allow the children to see the whole continent, the others vulnerability to obsidian, the children's magical wards that can stop the wights and others, but men cut down the trees and killed off the children, so when the others came, they were virtually unopposed by anyone, hence the journey of the last hero/Bran the builder 

It is a type of time loop, only the time as defined by a clock hasn't changed. And nobody is time traveling, but rather historic events are constantly looping. What does change are the people who live during the historic event, and the end result. 

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28 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It is a type of time loop, only the time as defined by a clock hasn't changed. And nobody is time traveling, but rather historic events are constantly looping. What does change are the people who live during the historic event, and the end result. 

History and events cycling and repeating are very different from a loop in the fourth dimension 

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20 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Depends on what your definition of Starlady is.

Iffin you be referring to ----

nope that is not me. :)

Aah, shoot. That was just me being nerdy :blushing:.

GRRM's story Starlady is a hell of an exercise in vernacular and syntax :blink:...

Spoiler

“They want to see you,” she said, looking apprehensively at Crawney and Stumblecat. “They found me on the Concourse and took my keyplate.”
Hairy Hal closed his book and stood. “Spin it,” he said. His face was a guarded blank.
“You know it all already, Hal,” Stumblecat said. Such a soft voice he had, such a civilized purr. “You’ve known it all along. We told you long ago that we bear you no grudge. You can pimp all you like, girls, boys, anything. But exotics, well, you know. The Marquis has a sentimental attachment to exotics. He collects them, you might say.”
“You been spinning us wobbly,” Crawney put in, grinning at Hal and showing off all his teeth. “But you can straighten out. Just give us your exotic.”
“Golden Boy, I believe he’s called,” said Stumblecat.
“Yes,” Hal said. “Only Golden Boy isn’t an exotic. Would Hal spin you wobbly, eh? He’s just human, an alter, look at the book.” He tapped it, offering.
“I’m not interested in any books, Hal,” Stumblecat said. “An alter is exotic enough for the Marquis. And even if you were right, well, the sad fact is we’d still want him. That much inside business is too tempting.”
“You want to get your other arm crottled?” Crawney said. “Wrong? Then you’d better hum to us, Hal.”
Hal did not move. But Mayliss did. She came around the table, grabbed him, shoved him towards them. “Hal!” she shrieked. “Hey, this is your chance! Only two of them, and Crawney never carries nothing, and Stumblecat is a clumsy stupid with his stick. Take them!” She pushed him again from behind.
And he hesitated, then whirled and slapped her hard. “You want to spin me cold, redhead,” he said. “There might be more outside.”

 

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30 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

History and events cycling and repeating are very different from a loop in the fourth dimension 

Don’t get hung up on my usage of Dr Strange’s time loop as an example. It was meant as a metaphor. I thought it would be helpful for understanding my theory.

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19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Aah, shoot. That was just me being nerdy :blushing:.

GRRM's story Starlady is a hell of an exercise in vernacular and syntax :blink:

Not, a problem.

I haven't read Marin's other works. Don't intend to.

I did like his recommendation of Hap & Leonard. :D

Starlady's video talk was interesting.

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Hello! I am very happy to see you here! I was so inspired by some of your comments on mirrors that I recycled something you said to make a comment about Euron:

Euron represents the ugly underbelly of man, the reflection of one's self in dark distorting mirrors where we glimpse things that disturb us, things that we did not really want to look at.

The wheel of time or in this story, the wheel of history is like the ouroboros or dragon eating it's own tail. History is trapped in a continual loop. Bloodraven's time on the wheel is setting (or fading) while Euron's time is rising. Training Bran to take his place is Bloodraven's plan to interrupt the wheel or at the very least try to manipulate it. I'm thinking the erratic seasons are side effects of attempts to manipulate the looping historic events. Weirwood trees have no concept of time...past, present, future, its all the same to a tree, but the greenseer sees all the historic events that have happened, are happening, and will happen. A greenseer cannot change the past, but they can control who "history" happens to. It's like playing Cyvasse. The players set up the board and lay out their pieces behind a screen. After every piece is in place the screen is lifted and play begins...the same historic events play out, but different playing pieces and different players affect who wins the game.

Hey there FC!

I'm glad you like the mirror stuff. There is another story that has some great mirror stuff in it that I have been meaning to share with you (time!!!!). It shows deceit, truth, it shattering, etc. (Ice Wall ;)).

Ok, to be totally honest, I hesitate to get too involved in both timelines debates and time loop debates, as both are hazy as hell... over wrinkled as Jojen might say :lol: But while I am here I guess I should join in a little.

I will say that GRRM has written 3 1/4 time travel stories... well, stories that feature TT in some way. I think it is safe to rule out two of the stories as examples of how GRRM might be doing a travel of time in ASOIAF, and those stories are Under Seige and Unsound Variations. Those are very clear, out in the open TT stories and they take in to account the issue of the lasting butterfly effect, what happens to the travelers body, the other people in the story end up losing self identity and free will, etc, and all of the other issues that drive my brain in knots in typical time travel stories :ack:  (I almost kinda hate TT stories).

Now, there is another 1 1/4 GRRM story where there is a travel of time, but the person has to use a device to help them go, and it is just their minds that travel (with the help of some "headgear"), and they come back to themselves at some point, and there is no ripple butterfly effects because all the travelers can do is basically observe. Oh, and they take hallucinogenic drugs to help get them there :smoking: One story is For A Single Yesterday (closest to Bran in many ways), and the other 1/4 story is the tail-end of The Stone City. In both, time is basically a straight line (river in one case), but they can jump back and forth. The story For A Single Yesterday fits Bran's experience rather closely, including the mission to go back in time and learn what you can to help the future. (sorry, trying to keep it just vague enough so that I don't spoil anything for those who may read it in the future)

In my opinion, what GRRM seems to be using in ASOIAF is maybe what you have clarified above??? That history repeats, but not literally that history itself is repeating? Please correct me if I am wrong.

If that is so, then yeah, I can get behind that we have scenarios and archetypes that seem to go in cycles. Not that Azor Ahai himself is going to come back on page, but someone who fits the bill will.

Honestly, and I probably say this too much, but one of the reasons why the timeline doesn't overly concern me much (especially for ancient history) is that I think it is told to the readers just so we know what to look for in the future of the story. Pulling up the past to make it connect with the future- over wrinkling so to speak. This goes for the big World of Ice and Fire book as well. Love it or loathe it, we see a lot of repeats in theme and events playing out now... just with a twist.

As far as seasons as evidence of time loops??? I don't know. I can't say that I see that connection yet. The irregularity does seem to be connected to magic, and if the final battle sets things right (the song of ice and fire battle, not the Others battle), then things should come back to harmony.

But, I could be wrong :dunno:

Quote

I'm thinking the erratic seasons are side effects of attempts to manipulate the looping historic events. Weirwood trees have no concept of time...past, present, future, its all the same to a tree, but the greenseer sees all the historic events that have happened, are happening, and will happen.

I agree that the trees have no concept of time:

  • An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

But I don't know that the greenseers can see the future, or maybe better said, are shown the future. Maybe I am forgetting the quote? (That does happen ^_^) This is what I remember being said about the greenseers and the future:

  • "Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us.
  • "When?" Bran wanted to know.
    "In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me. We will resume on the morrow."

 

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16 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Not, a problem.

I haven't read Marin's other works. Don't intend to.

I did like his recommendation of Hap & Leonard. :D

Ack! I know this is totally off topic, so I'll be quick...

I have been dying to get some time to read Hap & Leonard. Glad to hear of someone who liked it. Thanks.

16 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Starlady's video talk was interesting.

That whole (short) story is one big :smoking::blink::spank::pimp: weirdness.

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6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

That whole (short) story is one big :smoking::blink::spank::pimp: weirdness.

Girlie, I do not know it you are talking Martin's short story or the Starlady video.

6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I have been dying to get some time to read Hap & Leonard. Glad to hear of someone who liked it. Thanks.

It will be difficult to get the books. They started in 1990's. The show is in my opinion good.

 

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32 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

using in ASOIAF is maybe what you have clarified above??? That history repeats, but not literally that history itself is repeating? Please correct me if I am wrong.

If that is so, then yeah, I can get behind that we have scenarios and archetypes that seem to go in cycles. Not that Azor Ahai himself is going to come back on page, but someone who fits the bill will.

This is spot on to what I’ve been saying. In addition, I feel there’s a reason or purpose for the history loops that is similar to the belief that through reincarnation we improve upon ourselves and maybe correct our mistakes. 

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Don’t get hung up on my usage of Dr Strange’s time loop as an example. It was meant as a metaphor. I thought it would be helpful for understanding my theory.

ah. To myself and many sci fi nerds, Time loops are very specific. Like groundhog's day 

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The history loops are a tool to place specific people in particular events in the hopes of correcting some past wrong. History was moving forward, but after Dany’s dragons hatched it starting rolling in reverse. Something is being undone or corrected. 

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