Couple of queries regarding Breakspear's family

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

Where do people think Jena Dondarrion, Baelor Breakspear's wife was during the tourney of Ashford and afterwards? Was she alive? 

 

What would the position of Kiera of Tyrosh have been after Valarr died?

 

 

If Valarr Targaryen or  his brother Matarys had not died during the Great Spring Sickness, would they have kept Bloodraven on the small council, and would Maekar or Bloodraven been named hand

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Where do people think Jena Dondarrion, Baelor Breakspear's wife was during the tourney of Ashford and afterwards? Was she alive? 

No idea. Since she is never so much as mentioned during any of the Dunk & Egg stories it is not unlikely that she was already dead by then - or that she was at KL or on Dragonstone during THK and died in the spring. But then - if she had been alive, and if Prince Baelor was doing a royal progress through the southern parts of Westeros, then it would have been very odd that the future queen wasn't with him - especially not in light of the fact that Valarr had his first debut at a tourney.

Thinking about that - it is also odd that Valarr's wife Kiera was nowhere to be seen - but she may have been at an advance stage of her pregnancy at that point.

12 hours ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

What would the position of Kiera of Tyrosh have been after Valarr died?

No idea. What we can say is that she apparently didn't marry Prince Daeron in 209-211 AC. After all, it would have been mentioned if Egg's brother had taken a wife, even more so if said wife had been the widow of Prince Valarr.

Depending on who she actually is she may have returned to Tyrosh for a time before she ended up marrying Daeron.

12 hours ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

If Valarr Targaryen or his brother Matarys had not died during the Great Spring Sickness, would they have kept Bloodraven on the small council, and would Maekar or Bloodraven been named hand

We have no idea. We don't know anything about Matarys, but Valarr doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would make either Bloodraven or Maekar his Hand. Bloodraven because he was an old guy already, and a man who had a pretty bad reputation (although I guess he could have kept his place on the Small Council, if Bloodraven had already a place there during the reign of Daeron II). Maekar not because he had killed Valarr's own father, Prince Baelor. 

A King Valarr wouldn't have forgiven Maekar and his sons - Daeron, Aerion, and Aegon - for the part they all played at Ashford. They would have been banished from court, never receiving any royal favors throughout Valarr's reign. It is not even clear whether Maekar would have been allowed to keep Summerhall. Valarr may have forced them all into exile.

One assumes he would have named a younger man his Hand, one of his friends or some other man who had sought and won his favor.

[Deepbollywood Motte]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No idea. Since she is never so much as mentioned during any of the Dunk & Egg stories it is not unlikely that she was already dead by then - or that she was at KL or on Dragonstone during THK and died in the spring. But then - if she had been alive, and if Prince Baelor was doing a royal progress through the southern parts of Westeros, then it would have been very odd that the future queen wasn't with him - especially not in light of the fact that Valarr had his first debut at a tourney.

Thinking about that - it is also odd that Valarr's wife Kiera was nowhere to be seen - but she may have been at an advance stage of her pregnancy at that point.

No idea. What we can say is that she apparently didn't marry Prince Daeron in 209-211 AC. After all, it would have been mentioned if Egg's brother had taken a wife, even more so if said wife had been the widow of Prince Valarr.

Depending on who she actually is she may have returned to Tyrosh for a time before she ended up marrying Daeron.

We have no idea. We don't know anything about Matarys, but Valarr doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would make either Bloodraven or Maekar his Hand. Bloodraven because he was an old guy already, and a man who had a pretty bad reputation (although I guess he could have kept his place on the Small Council, if Bloodraven had already a place there during the reign of Daeron II). Maekar not because he had killed Valarr's own father, Prince Baelor. 

A King Valarr wouldn't have forgiven Maekar and his sons - Daeron, Aerion, and Aegon - for the part they all played at Ashford. They would have been banished from court, never receiving any royal favors throughout Valarr's reign. It is not even clear whether Maekar would have been allowed to keep Summerhall. Valarr may have forced them all into exile.

One assumes he would have named a younger man his Hand, one of his friends or some other man who had sought and won his favor.

Just if the extended family stays alive and well, if Maekar doesn't stay at Summerhall, where else? Would he go to Starfall? This creates a line that isn't happy about anything (They weren't helpfull to start with)... better keep em close.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No idea. Since she is never so much as mentioned during any of the Dunk & Egg stories it is not unlikely that she was already dead by then - or that she was at KL or on Dragonstone during THK and died in the spring. But then - if she had been alive, and if Prince Baelor was doing a royal progress through the southern parts of Westeros, then it would have been very odd that the future queen wasn't with him - especially not in light of the fact that Valarr had his first debut at a tourney.

Thinking about that - it is also odd that Valarr's wife Kiera was nowhere to be seen - but she may have been at an advance stage of her pregnancy at that point.

No idea. What we can say is that she apparently didn't marry Prince Daeron in 209-211 AC. After all, it would have been mentioned if Egg's brother had taken a wife, even more so if said wife had been the widow of Prince Valarr.

Depending on who she actually is she may have returned to Tyrosh for a time before she ended up marrying Daeron.

We have no idea. We don't know anything about Matarys, but Valarr doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would make either Bloodraven or Maekar his Hand. Bloodraven because he was an old guy already, and a man who had a pretty bad reputation (although I guess he could have kept his place on the Small Council, if Bloodraven had already a place there during the reign of Daeron II). Maekar not because he had killed Valarr's own father, Prince Baelor. 

A King Valarr wouldn't have forgiven Maekar and his sons - Daeron, Aerion, and Aegon - for the part they all played at Ashford. They would have been banished from court, never receiving any royal favors throughout Valarr's reign. It is not even clear whether Maekar would have been allowed to keep Summerhall. Valarr may have forced them all into exile.

One assumes he would have named a younger man his Hand, one of his friends or some other man who had sought and won his favor.

 

Interesting, so potentially Valarr could have created more enmity due to the rage and grief over his father's death? Was there any sign during the novel that he disliked Maekar because of this? He could have seen it as an accident or blamed Dunk anyway

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

Just if the extended family stays alive and well, if Maekar doesn't stay at Summerhall, where else? Would he go to Starfall? This creates a line that isn't happy about anything (They weren't helpfull to start with)... better keep em close.

Maekar is the fourth son of a king. He can neither demand nor expect anything. He is at the very end of the succession and a King Valarr doesn't owe anything to this man or his sons. Now, Aerion could become a problem to Valarr and his sons, but Daeron and Aegon are not likely to become difficult.

If Valarr and Matarys hadn't died, Maekar and his sons would have been as prominent or important in the long run as Genna's and Tygett's children are for the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. They are part of the family, but not necessarily people that are at the center of attention.

44 minutes ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Interesting, so potentially Valarr could have created more enmity due to the rage and grief over his father's death? Was there any sign during the novel that he disliked Maekar because of this? He could have seen it as an accident or blamed Dunk anyway

Valarr is very cold to Dunk during Baelor's funeral. He doesn't completely condemn him, but then - he doesn't seem to be a bad person. However, Valarr knows what kind of man cousin Aerion is - and he is the one to blame for the Trial of Seven. Cousin Daeron is to be blamed for the whole thing, too, because he participated in it, as is uncle Maekar who fought in the thing and killed Baelor. And cousin Aegon, too, since he is the boy who made a fuzz about the puppeteer in the first, starting the entire affair.

Even if Valarr believed that Maekar did not want to kill Baelor - and I'm pretty sure he would have believed that - their relationship would have still been poisoned by the fact that Maekar did what he did. And it wasn't an accident or anything, it was a trial-by-combat. Maekar chose to fight with a heavy weapon and he chose to attack his brother Baelor with considerable strength. Maekar may not have wanted to kill his brother, but he accepted that this might happen. If he had wanted to protect his brother's life he would have followed the example of Daeron or the Kingsguard.

I don't think King Valarr would have been keen look into the face of that man everyday at court, let alone interact and work with that man in his own government. Would you want to do that with an uncle who took your father from you the way Maekar killed Baelor?

In fact, chances are not that bad that King Aerys I chose Bloodraven over Maekar as Hand because he, too, was wroth with brother Maekar for the death of their older brother. We don't know how close Aerys and Baelor were, but it is Baelor's untimely death - as well as Valarr and Matarys' death in the spring - that force Prince Aerys to become king - which apparently wasn't exactly something he had expected or worked towards.

If the man had intended to continue his life as a scholarly, eccentric hermit without wearing a crown, then he might have been pissed that his younger brother's silly behavior - as well as the behavior of the sons of that man - had ruined his quiet life. And it makes no sense to reward such a brother for that kind of thing by giving him great power.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Maekar is the fourth son of a king. He can neither demand nor expect anything. He is at the very end of the succession and a King Valarr doesn't owe anything to this man or his sons. Now, Aerion could become a problem to Valarr and his sons, but Daeron and Aegon are not likely to become difficult.

If Valarr and Matarys hadn't died, Maekar and his sons would have been as prominent or important in the long run as Genna's and Tygett's children are for the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. They are part of the family, but not necessarily people that are at the center of attention.

Valarr is very cold to Dunk during Baelor's funeral. He doesn't completely condemn him, but then - he doesn't seem to be a bad person. However, Valarr knows what kind of man cousin Aerion is - and he is the one to blame for the Trial of Seven. Cousin Daeron is to be blamed for the whole thing, too, because he participated in it, as is uncle Maekar who fought in the thing and killed Baelor. And cousin Aegon, too, since he is the boy who made a fuzz about the puppeteer in the first, starting the entire affair.

Even if Valarr believed that Maekar did not want to kill Baelor - and I'm pretty sure he would have believed that - their relationship would have still been poisoned by the fact that Maekar did what he did. And it wasn't an accident or anything, it was a trial-by-combat. Maekar chose to fight with a heavy weapon and he chose to attack his brother Baelor with considerable strength. Maekar may not have wanted to kill his brother, but he accepted that this might happen. If he had wanted to protect his brother's life he would have followed the example of Daeron or the Kingsguard.

I don't think King Valarr would have been keen look into the face of that man everyday at court, let alone interact and work with that man in his own government. Would you want to do that with an uncle who took your father from you the way Maekar killed Baelor?

In fact, chances are not that bad that King Aerys I chose Bloodraven over Maekar as Hand because he, too, was wroth with brother Maekar for the death of their older brother. We don't know how close Aerys and Baelor were, but it is Baelor's untimely death - as well as Valarr and Matarys' death in the spring - that force Prince Aerys to become king - which apparently wasn't exactly something he had expected or worked towards.

If the man had intended to continue his life as a scholarly, eccentric hermit without wearing a crown, then he might have been pissed that his younger brother's silly behavior - as well as the behavior of the sons of that man - had ruined his quiet life. And it makes no sense to reward such a brother for that kind of thing by giving him great power.

This is very true, though if Maekar was an experienced man, and if he had allies, which being Prince of Summerhall he likely did, exiling him to said Summerhall might not be the best idea. And if he was smart, then even more so. You can keep him close without having to look at him everyday. Man would've had a manor in the city no?