So Mother Mole's vision...is she seeing Dany's fleet?

[Varysblackfyre321]

Anyone else getting feeling the fleet that is supposed to come pick her and her followers and carry them to safety is the one Dany would use to carry her army to Westeroes?

[Bowen 747]

I doubt this.  This is too far into the future.  The wildlings will be zombified by then.  Taking a fleet that far north is not sound military tactics and therefore, not something Dany would do.  She will take her fleet to a friendly port, like Dorne.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

I doubt this.  This is too far into the future.  The wildlings will be zombified by then.  Taking a fleet that far north is not sound military tactics and therefore, not something Dany would do.  She will take her fleet to a friendly port, like Dorne.  

Still what other power would and would be able to carry off thousands of wildlings across the ocean?

[Lollygag]

ADWD The Blind Girl

 

"I know why the Sealord seized the Goodheart. She was carrying slaves. Hundreds of slaves, women and children, roped together in her hold." Braavos had been founded by escaped slaves, and the slave trade was forbidden here.

 

"I know where the slaves came from. They were wildlings from Westeros, from a place called Hardhome. An old ruined place, accursed." Old Nan had told her tales of Hardhome, back at Winterfell when she had still been Arya Stark. "After the big battle where the King-Beyond-the-Wall was killed, the wildlings ran away, and this woods witch said that if they went to Hardhome, ships would come and carry them away to someplace warm. But no ships came, except these two Lyseni pirates, Goodheart and Elephant, that had been driven north by a storm. They dropped anchor off Hardhome to make repairs, and saw the wildlings, but there were thousands and they didn't have room for all of them, so they said they'd just take the women and the children. The wildlings had nothing to eat, so the men sent out their wives and daughters, but as soon as the ships were out to sea, the Lyseni drove them below and roped them up. They meant to sell them all in Lys. Only then they ran into another storm and the ships were parted. The Goodheart was so damaged her captain had no choice but to put in here, but the Elephant may have made it back to Lys. The Lyseni at Pynto's think that she'll return with more ships. The price of slaves is rising, they said, and there are thousands more women and children at Hardhome."

 

I suspect Dany will come to Westeros fully informed about the Others and wights because of a run-in with the Hardome wildlings taken into slavery with Tyrion confirming the info from what he learned from Jeor, Benjen and Alliser's time in KL. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

ADWD The Blind Girl

 

"I know why the Sealord seized the Goodheart. She was carrying slaves. Hundreds of slaves, women and children, roped together in her hold." Braavos had been founded by escaped slaves, and the slave trade was forbidden here.

 

"I know where the slaves came from. They were wildlings from Westeros, from a place called Hardhome. An old ruined place, accursed." Old Nan had told her tales of Hardhome, back at Winterfell when she had still been Arya Stark. "After the big battle where the King-Beyond-the-Wall was killed, the wildlings ran away, and this woods witch said that if they went to Hardhome, ships would come and carry them away to someplace warm. But no ships came, except these two Lyseni pirates, Goodheart and Elephant, that had been driven north by a storm. They dropped anchor off Hardhome to make repairs, and saw the wildlings, but there were thousands and they didn't have room for all of them, so they said they'd just take the women and the children. The wildlings had nothing to eat, so the men sent out their wives and daughters, but as soon as the ships were out to sea, the Lyseni drove them below and roped them up. They meant to sell them all in Lys. Only then they ran into another storm and the ships were parted. The Goodheart was so damaged her captain had no choice but to put in here, but the Elephant may have made it back to Lys. The Lyseni at Pynto's think that she'll return with more ships. The price of slaves is rising, they said, and there are thousands more women and children at Hardhome."

 

I suspect Dany will come to Westeros fully informed about the Others and wights because of a run-in with the Hardome wildlings taken into slavery with Tyrion confirming the info from what he learned from Jeor, Benjen and Alliser's time in KL. 

Plausible. Tyrion could(if taken in by Daenarys and treated as a confidant), that yes the Night's watch had sought aid against the enemy these wildlings are speaking of. I suspect, Daenarys when taking her journey back to westeroes will ask if any one of the freed slaves if they would follow her; to which the wildlings would jump at and beg Daenarys to head to the north of westeroes and save their families.

Tyrion got no real info from Jeor, or Benjen. I'm given the impression he had very little respect for either man and neither really thought there was some supernatural force that was amounting an attack on the NW.

[Unacosamedarisa]

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Still what other power would and would be able to carry off thousands of wildlings across the ocean?

Who says the vision is accurate? Or even happened? People question POV character's experiences and visions, even when we get their POV on those events... We don't even get Mother Mole's POV on her "visions", and don't even see her on-page. Could be her vision was symbolic, and/or she misinterpreted it, or it simply didn't happen and Mother Mole is some sort of charlatan or mad-woman. 

Also, I don't see Dany and her fleet landing at Hardhome first, or her fleet getting there before whatever calamity is going to happen there happens.

Personally, I think it's as Lollygag posted... Mother Mole saw them being "rescued" by slavers. More slavers are going to show up, and carry more Wildlings off, perhaps.

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Who says the vision is accurate? Or even happened? People question POV character's experiences and visions, even when we get their POV on those events... We don't even get Mother Mole's POV on her "visions", and don't even see her on-page. Could be her vision was symbolic, and/or she misinterpreted it, or it simply didn't happen and Mother Mole is some sort of charlatan or mad-woman. 

Also, I don't see Dany and her fleet landing at Hardhome first, or her fleet getting there before whatever calamity is going to happen there happens.

Personally, I think it's as Lollygag posted... Mother Mole saw them being "rescued" by slavers. More slavers are going to show up, and carry more Wildlings off, perhaps.

Meh, wood witches haven't been shown to be wrong about their propecies yet have they? And mother mole's visions likely have to have some accuracy for people to be a notable figure among the free folk.

[Unacosamedarisa]

It's not like she's got a badge from the Woods Witch club, with a certificate promising all of her visions and prophecies are accurate to the letter, and that she doesn't lie about them or misinterpret them. They're not a regulated group with entry requirements. She could be a convincing charlatan, who has no gift for visions at all. Or her vision could have been symbolic, or ambiguous, much like the Ghost of High Heart's 2 visions of Sansa. 

23 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And mother mole's visions likely have to have some accuracy for people to be a notable figure among the free folk.

And Lodos convinced thousands he was the son of the Drowned God, and that he could summon Krakens to drag Aegon the Conqueror's fleet down to the bottom of the sea, and that he was just walking into said sea to have a chat with his dad... thousands believed him, and followed him, and washed up as corpses on the shore. Mother Mole could be a false prophet, much like Lodos was. 

Or, she did have an accurate vision, of a fleet taking the Wildlings to safety... And that fleet is the slavers coming from Lys. Dany's fleet is not the only one that could save the Wildlings... Hell, does Dany even have a fleet currently? How do we know how big it's going to be? 

Anyway... I guess we'll know for certain when Dany's fleet saves all these Wildlings from Hardhome when they reach Westeros sometime around the end of TWoW or beginning of ADoS, or they don't, and Hardhome is resolved some other way.

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

ADWD The Blind Girl

 

"I know why the Sealord seized the Goodheart. She was carrying slaves. Hundreds of slaves, women and children, roped together in her hold." Braavos had been founded by escaped slaves, and the slave trade was forbidden here.

 

"I know where the slaves came from. They were wildlings from Westeros, from a place called Hardhome. An old ruined place, accursed." Old Nan had told her tales of Hardhome, back at Winterfell when she had still been Arya Stark. "After the big battle where the King-Beyond-the-Wall was killed, the wildlings ran away, and this woods witch said that if they went to Hardhome, ships would come and carry them away to someplace warm. But no ships came, except these two Lyseni pirates, Goodheart and Elephant, that had been driven north by a storm. They dropped anchor off Hardhome to make repairs, and saw the wildlings, but there were thousands and they didn't have room for all of them, so they said they'd just take the women and the children. The wildlings had nothing to eat, so the men sent out their wives and daughters, but as soon as the ships were out to sea, the Lyseni drove them below and roped them up. They meant to sell them all in Lys. Only then they ran into another storm and the ships were parted. The Goodheart was so damaged her captain had no choice but to put in here, but the Elephant may have made it back to Lys. The Lyseni at Pynto's think that she'll return with more ships. The price of slaves is rising, they said, and there are thousands more women and children at Hardhome."

This.

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Anyone else getting feeling the fleet that is supposed to come pick her and her followers and carry them to safety is the one Dany would use to carry her army to Westeroes?

The word Jon gets from the wildlings is that Mother Mole saw "a fleet of ships arriving to carry the free folk to safety across the narrow sea." So even if those are her exact words, the slavers from Lys and Volantis would still be an accurate interpretation: they would be safe from the wights and Others, enslaved but safe. And now that Arya has informed the higher ups in her temple about this plan to return to Hardhome and get more slaves -- a tale that city officials will likely have heard as well -- it's a safe bet that Braavos will get its own fleet to Hardhome first.

Plus, we have Cotter Pyke there with his six ships, which MM may or may not consider a "fleet", and they will at least be carry wildlings south of the wall. Given that wildlings don't like to kneel, however, I'll bet not many will consider this much better than slavery, but at least they'll be safe.

 

 

[Lollygag]

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Plausible. Tyrion could(if taken in by Daenarys and treated as a confidant), that yes the Night's watch had sought aid against the enemy these wildlings are speaking of. I suspect, Daenarys when taking her journey back to westeroes will ask if any one of the freed slaves if they would follow her; to which the wildlings would jump at and beg Daenarys to head to the north of westeroes and save their families.

Tyrion got no real info from Jeor, or Benjen. I'm given the impression he had very little respect for either man and neither really thought there was some supernatural force that was amounting an attack on the NW.

There is much in the series about not believing but believing, of not knowing, but knowing. This is another example. Tyrion can't bring himself to believe in the reports of the Others, but his instincts say it's true. When Tyrion gets to KL, he keeps sending men to the Wall.

Tyrion got a great deal of info from Jeor and he did like and respect him. Jeor very much believed that the Others were up to something.

 

AGOT Tyrion III (white walkers here meaning Others as the books use both white walkers and Others for the Others)

 

The Lord Commander took no notice of the irritating bird. "Gared was near as old as I am and longer on the Wall," he went on, "yet it would seem he forswore himself and fled. I should never have believed it, not of him, but Lord Eddard sent me his head from Winterfell. Of Royce, there is no word. One deserter and two men lost, and now Ben Stark too has gone missing." He sighed deeply. "Who am I to send searching after him? In two years I will be seventy. Too old and too weary for the burden I bear, yet if I set it down, who will pick it up? Alliser Thorne? Bowen Marsh? I would have to be as blind as Maester Aemon not to see what they are. The Night's Watch has become an army of sullen boys and tired old men. Apart from the men at my table tonight, I have perhaps twenty who can read, and even fewer who can think, or plan, or lead. Once the Watch spent its summers building, and each Lord Commander raised the Wall higher than he found it. Now it is all we can do to stay alive."

He was in deadly earnest, Tyrion realized. He felt faintly embarrassed for the old man. Lord Mormont had spent a good part of his life on the Wall, and he needed to believe if those years were to have any meaning. "I promise, the king will hear of your need," Tyrion said gravely, "and I will speak to my father and my brother Jaime as well." And he would. Tyrion Lannister was as good as his word. He left the rest unsaid; that King Robert would ignore him, Lord Tywin would ask if he had taken leave of his senses, and Jaime would only laugh.

"You are a young man, Tyrion," Mormont said. "How many winters have you seen?"

He shrugged. "Eight, nine. I misremember."

"And all of them short."

"As you say, my lord." He had been born in the dead of winter, a terrible cruel one that the maesters said had lasted near three years, but Tyrion's earliest memories were of spring.

"When I was a boy, it was said that a long summer always meant a long winter to come. This summer has lasted nine years, Tyrion, and a tenth will soon be upon us. Think on that."

"When I was a boy," Tyrion replied, "my wet nurse told me that one day, if men were good, the gods would give the world a summer without ending. Perhaps we've been better than we thought, and the Great Summer is finally at hand." He grinned.

The Lord Commander did not seem amused. "You are not fool enough to believe that, my lord. Already the days grow shorter. There can be no mistake, Aemon has had letters from the Citadel, findings in accord with his own. The end of summer stares us in the face." Mormont reached out and clutched Tyrion tightly by the hand. "You must make them understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams."

"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. "The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings."

"Denys Mallister writes that the mountain people are moving south, slipping past the Shadow Tower in numbers greater than ever before. They are running, my lord … but running from what?" Lord Mormont moved to the window and stared out into the night. "These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night's Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready."

"The gods help me if I do not get some sleep tonight. Yoren is determined to ride at first light." Tyrion got to his feet, sleepy from wine and tired of doom. "I thank you for all the courtesies you have done me, Lord Mormont."

"Tell them, Tyrion. Tell them and make them believe. That is all the thanks I need." He whistled, and his raven flew to him and perched on his shoulder. Mormont smiled and gave the bird some corn from his pocket, and that was how Tyrion left him.

…

As he stood there and looked at all that darkness with no fires burning anywhere, with the wind blowing and the cold like a spear in his guts, Tyrion Lannister felt as though he could almost believe the talk of the Others, the enemy in the night. His jokes of grumkins and snarks no longer seemed quite so droll.

ACOK Tyrion VI

Don't be a fool, he told himself. A wolf, a wind, a dark forest, it meant nothing. And yet . . . He had come to have a liking for old Jeor Mormont during his time at Castle Black. "I trust that the Old Bear survived this attack?"

 

[Megorova]

Maybe that will be fleet of Iron Bank.

They were bringing Jon's gold to Night's Watch. And Brothers will send them to Hardhome. Which they did before, on Jon's order, with all other ships, that got near Eastwatch.

Also if Faceless Men found out from Arya, about what those Lyseni slavers plan to do, they may go there, and bring wildlings to Braavos, instead of what slavers planned to do with them. I think that Faceless Men and Iron Bank are the same establishment. Two sides of the same (iron ) coin.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

is much in the series about not believing but believing, of not knowing, but knowing. This is another example. Tyrion can't bring himself to believe in the reports of the Others, but his instincts say it's true. When Tyrion gets to KL, he keeps sending men to the Wall.

Tyrion got a great deal of info from Jeor and he did like and respect him. Jeor very much believed that the Others were up to something.

Damint knew Tyrion left the wall with a suspicion to magic to it. So much so he gave some men to Allister(a man he felt no love for).Last post however doesn't leave that impression does it. I concede Jeor very well stated suspected their was some supernatural possibley going to amount an attack on the NW and relaying that information upon Tyrion. Jeor believed there was something coming-he didn't know what, the others were tossed around but even he is hesitant to give a give them as a definitive answer..I have to wonder if he was putting more mystical certiantity in what he's saying to Tyrion as a way to get more supplies he needs either way. I mean if he did totally believe the talk of wights wouldn't it be irresponsible to not alert the brotherhood about these things? Then again he's only the rumours and dreams.

[chrisdaw]

Mother Mole is a little bit wrong (or since we don't have it first hadn't what people are circulating she said is wrong), see how it has morphed from ships to take them south into salvation by the sea. The vision will come to pass during TWFTD when the people of westeros will flee the Others into a dried out narrow sea, and when all is thought lost a united khalasar will arrive, having crossed the dried sea, to save them.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Th vision is accurate but we know that prophecies have a way of coming true even if it doesn't follow the visions to the letter.  So these ships are slavers.  They take the Wildlings with the intent to sell them.  But that doesn't mean the ships will make it to a slaving port.  The one in Braavos got captured and the Wildlings rescued, presumably.  So the prophecy came true, in one way or another.  

[Lost Melnibonean]

By the way, is Mother Mole just a woods witch? Or is she a greenseer?

One day, as they fled, a rider came galloping through the woods on a gaunt white horse, shouting that they all should make for the Milkwater, that the Weeper was gathering warriors to cross the Bridge of Skulls and take the Shadow Tower. Many followed him; more did not. Later, a dour warrior in fur and amber went from cookfire to cookfire, urging all the survivors to head north and take refuge in the valley of the Thenns. Why he thought they would be safe there when the Thenns themselves had fled the place Varamyr never learned, but hundreds followed him. Hundreds more went off with the woods witch who'd had a vision of a fleet of ships coming to carry the freefolk south. "We must seek the sea," cried Mother Mole, and her followers turned east.

Prologue, Dance

Jon ignored him. "We have been questioning the wildlings we brought back from the grove. Several of them told an interesting tale, of a woods witch called Mother Mole."

"Mother Mole?" said Bowen Marsh. "An unlikely name."

"Supposedly she made her home in a burrow beneath a hollow tree. Whatever the truth of that, she had a vision of a fleet of ships arriving to carry the free folk to safety across the narrow sea. Thousands of those who fled the battle were desperate enough to believe her. Mother Mole has led them all to Hardhome, there to pray and await salvation from across the sea."

Othell Yarwyck scowled. "I'm no ranger, but … Hardhome is an un-holy place, it's said. Cursed. Even your uncle used to say as much, Lord Snow. Why would they go there?"

Jon had a map before him on the table. He turned it so they could see. “Hardhome sits on a sheltered bay and has a natural harbor deep enough for the biggest ships afloat. Wood and stone are plentiful near there. The waters teem with fish, and there are colonies of seals and sea cows close at hand."

"All that's true, I don't doubt," said Yarwyck, "but it's not a place I'd want to spend a night. You know the tale."

He did. Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it. Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. Afterward ashes rained down on haunted forest and Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year. Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pocked the great cliff that loomed above the settlement.

Six centuries had come and gone since that night, but Hardhome was still shunned. The wild had reclaimed the site, Jon had been told, but rangers claimed that the overgrown ruins were haunted by ghouls and demons and burning ghosts with an unhealthy taste for blood. "It is not the sort of refuge I'd chose either," Jon said, "but Mother Mole was heard to preach that the free folk would find salvation where once they found damnation."

Septon Cellador pursed his lips. "Salvation can be found only through the Seven. This witch has doomed them all."

"And saved the Wall, mayhaps," said Bowen Marsh. "These are enemies we speak of. Let them pray amongst the ruins, and if their gods send ships to carry them off to a better world, well and good. In this world I have no food to feed them."

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. "Cotter Pyke's galleys sail past Hardhome from time to time. He tells me there is no shelter there but the caves. The screaming caves, his men call them. Mother Mole and those who followed her will perish there, of cold and starvation. Hundreds of them. Thousands."

Jon VIII, Dance 39

At Hardhome, with six ships. Wild seas. Blackbird lost with all hands, two Lyseni ships driven aground on Skane, Talon taking water. Very bad here. Wildlings eating their own dead. Dead things in the woods. Braavosi captains will only take women, children on their ships. Witch women call us slavers. Attempt to take Storm Crow defeated, six crew dead, many wildlings. Eight ravens left. Dead things in the water. Send help by land, seas wracked by storms. From Talon, by hand of Maester Harmune.

Jon XII, Dance 58

And do those caves remind you of the foundation of Hightower and the Whispers?

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And do those caves remind you of the foundation of Hightower and the Whispers?

Or Beric Dondarrion's hollow hill? Or the cave-cell on the Quiet Isle?

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

By the way, is Mother Mole just a woods witch? Or is she a greenseer?

Well, she's some kind of "seer" if she has what she believes to be "visions" and prophetic events - and others believe she's accurate.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

lso if Faceless Men found out from Arya, about what those Lyseni slavers plan to do, they may go there, and bring wildlings to Braavos, instead of what slavers planned to do with them. I think that Faceless Men and Iron Bank are the same establishment. Two sides of the same (iron ) coin.

An interesting theory! But the Faceless Men would never take designated victims away from their Many-Faced God. They don't "save", they kill. And, while I believe that the Bank and the Faceless Men probably do a lot of business together, I also believe they're separate organizations with different agendas.

Back to the question! I can see no good reason for Daenerys to make her first landing, with her ships heavily laden with fighters and their equipment and horses, plus all her other followers, by going north as winter is setting in. The seas grow increasingly treacherous, the storms worse, the cold beyond what anybody from Essos has ever experienced - they'd go land in Dorne, perhaps with the bones of poor Quentyn Martell, as a kind of peace offering. That is, assuming she ever gets back to Meereen. As far as we know, the khals could enslave and kill her out on the Dothraki sea. Never underestimate the evil of George RR Martin. And, if she does get back to Slaver's Bay, all the wildlings would be long dead and wightified by then, anyway.

 

[Megorova]

10 hours ago, zandru said:

But the Faceless Men would never take designated victims away from their Many-Faced God. They don't "save", they kill.

The Great Other is not the God of Death. He not only kills people, he turn them into walking dead. He is evil. The God of Death is the Many-Faced God, and he is not evil. Death is just death, it's part of nature and the circle of life. But wights are trapped in a state between life and death. When people die, they should stay dead, not keep walking around, and killing other people. Wights kill without reason, and they kill everyone. Their interference destroys fates of people, and breaks natural balance. Furthermore if there's reincarnation, in a world of ASOIAF, then the souls of those people, that were turned into wights, are either staying in a world of the living, or they are getting devoured by the Great Other. Thus the Many-Faced God doesn't get what should be rightfully his - their death/souls.

So I think that the Faceless Men will eventually fight against the Undead Army. And that's the reason why one of them is in Westeros. Amongst other things, he went to the Citadel, to investigate what maesters know about the Others, wights, and the Second Long Night. They want to fight against the Great Other.

Thus I don't see a reason for Faceless Men, not to save those wildlings from that evil deity. Those people will die later, but from natural reasons, and go into the afterlife, where they will meet with the Many-Faced God, how it should be, in a natural course of things.