Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Black Crow

Heresy 207 :skinchanging

Recommended Posts

 

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

This aint Jon, look at the imagery, this is Ghost inside Jon, and Ghost wants Winterfell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

That's exactly my point. The figures represented in the second half are not arbitrary: Qhorin died so that Jon could infiltrate Mance's host, and Donal Noye and Dick Follard died under Jon's command during Mance's attack. These are men that died so that Jon could fulfill the duties of the Night's Watch, and that Jon is 'slaying' them specifically while screaming "I am the Lord of Winterfell" is because to slay them is to slay the essence of his oaths.

Similarly, that Jon felt resentment toward Robb, and guilt over that resentment was a theme of Jon's ASOS chapters, culminating in a self-admission after he'd spent some time ruminating on Stannis' offer to make him Lord of Winterfell:

Quote

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.


Ultimately, in that instance, he chose the Watch, chose his oaths, chose his duty--and the Watch literally stabbed him in the back...and the front, and a couple other places. The dream, in which Jon still exhibits a 'hunger' for Winterfell, is one chapter before his stabbing.

I don't really disagree with any of this... but I will point out that when he felt the physical "hunger" for Winterfell, he was channelling Ghost who was literally hungry and wanting to hunt. However, I completely agree that Jon wants Winterfell. Of course he does. But so far, his honor has prevailed.

In addition, after he wakes from the dream in question, there is more:

Quote

“I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robbbefore him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled … … and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. “Snow,” the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.
The day had come. It was the hour of the wolf. Soon enough the sun would rise, and four thousand wildlings would come pouring through the Wall. Madness. Jon Snow ran his burned hand through his hair and wondered once again what he was doing. Once the gate was opened there would be no turning back. It should have been the Old Bear to treat with Tormund. It should have been Jaremy Rykker or Qhorin Halfhand or Denys Mallister or some other seasoned man. It should have been my uncle. It was too late for such misgivings, though. Every choice had its risks, every choice its consequences. He would play the game to its conclusion.

The dream in which he feels like he betrayed the Watch comes the day he is going to let the wildlings across the Wall. To many of his brothers, this is treason in itself, and it would be logical for his subconscious to feel guilty about this. He thinks of all the good men who died trying to prevent Mance and his host from crossing to the south, and feels responsible. 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

This aint Jon, look at the imagery, this is Ghost inside Jon, and Ghost wants Winterfell

Ooooh..... this takes things to a whole other level! I've suspected for some time that Ghost is not "good", that he was planted somehow, and this confirms it. Please excuse me while I rearrange my entire world view. :bowdown:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

However, I noticed something interesting for the first time in this quote: the fact that the attackers are shooting burning arrowsup at Jon and his scarecrows, and the scarecrows light on fire. This is not consistent with a prophetic dream of an Other attack, as the Others would not use flaming arrows. In addition, it's the wights that are flammable, not the NW brothers. At least not living NW brothers... 

Combined with Jon being armored in ice, the imagery here is more of an ice force, led by Jon and holding the Wall, being attacked by a fire force from below. Jon is dead, reanimated and armored in ice, with "scarecrows" (wights) beside him.  

But again, my main point is that this dream does not fit the imagery of an attack by the Others. Whoever Jon is fighting here is someone who fights with fire.

I dare say this detail slipped by just about everyone.  LOL!  What do you make of the sword burning in his fist?

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow," the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really found Matthew’s explanation of the symbolism compelling. The flaming arrows flying up and hitting the Watch are Jon’s guilty conscience. His decisions killed his brothers, so the fire arrows are his own, even while he’s wielding a flaming sword against the wildlings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, LynnS said:
3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

However, I noticed something interesting for the first time in this quote: the fact that the attackers are shooting burning arrows up at Jon and his scarecrows, and the scarecrows light on fire. This is not consistent with a prophetic dream of an Other attack, as the Others would not use flaming arrows. In addition, it's the wights that are flammable, not the NW brothers. At least not living NW brothers... 

Combined with Jon being armored in ice, the imagery here is more of an ice force, led by Jon and holding the Wall, being attacked by a fire force from below. Jon is dead, reanimated and armored in ice, with "scarecrows" (wights) beside him.  

But again, my main point is that this dream does not fit the imagery of an attack by the Others. Whoever Jon is fighting here is someone who fights with fire.

I dare say this detail slipped by just about everyone.  LOL!  What do you make of the sword burning in his fist?

I think this was actually my quote originally, so I'll go ahead and answer. :D The more I think about it, the less significance I ascribe to this dream (at least the first half, on the Wall). I think GRRM may be messing with us, showing us the AA imagery we are looking for but also giving us plenty of clues that this is not what it seems. I think most of this dream is a natural reaction of Jon's subconscious to the events unfolding around him - in other words, a fairly normal dream. 

To begin with, the only actual AA imagery in this dream is the sword, burning red in his fist. This adds the fire element to Jon, and also gives him the red&black color combination that the RLJ fans like. HOWEVER, he is also armored in black ice, which doesn't represent dragons or wolves. The Stark colors are grey and white, not black, and direwolves don't represent ice or darkness. They are simply one of the ancient races, like COTF and giants and mammoths, not harbingers of everlasting darkness. So this black ice/burning sword combination is NOT indicative of Stark + Targaryen, IMO, nor does it point to Jon being AA who has never been associated with ice that I know of. It makes sense that he would dream of a red burning sword after Stannis has recently shown up with Lightbringer, and Mel talks about it nonstop. They are all telling him that what he really needs to fight the Others is a burning sword, so that's what he dreams about. The black ice fits too: he already wears black every day, being a brother of the Watch, so of course that's the color he sees himself in. Being armored in ice reflects the fact that he is LC (also a recent and significant event) and thereby "married to the Wall"; it is his responsibility to keep the Others out and he will use the ice wall to do it. (Which seems wrong every time I think about it, but that's another topic)

We've already discussed that he feels guilty for the many people who died on both sides of the recent battle, since he is now going to let the remaining wildlings across - which means all these people, including Qhorin, Ygritte and all the rest, essentially died for nothing. So that's why he sees himself killing them; guilt and maybe a hint of doubt about what he is doing. The burning shafts and scarecrow brothers were real features of the battle at the Wall, so he is dreaming about it the way he remembers it. It all fits, he is the new LC, a 16 year old boy with an insane amount of responsibility, a heart in many conflicts, and probably more than a touch of PTSD. As he sleeps, his mind mingles his fears, guilts and doubts together with recent memories and voila, we have this weird half-memory, half-fictional scenario. [Not as fun as a prophetic dream, I know, but as a maester I feel obligated to point out that not every dream has to be prophetic. ;) Ned dreamed of the TOJ for years, with slight alterations such as his friends becoming wraiths just as Jon's became scarecrows - but ultimately built around a traumatic memory.] 

That's not to say the second part of the dream is not significant, especially in light of Black Crow's super creepy but awesome new suggestion that Ghost may have had a hand in that half... the half where Jon becomes a kinslayer, a kingslayer, a turncloak and an oathbreaker - but also lord of Winterfell. :devil:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MaesterSam said:

I think this was actually my quote originally, so I'll go ahead and answer. :D The more I think about it, the less significance I ascribe to this dream (at least the first half, on the Wall). I think GRRM may be messing with us, showing us the AA imagery we are looking for but also giving us plenty of clues that this is not what it seems. I think most of this dream is a natural reaction of Jon's subconscious to the events unfolding around him - in other words, a fairly normal dream. 

To begin with, the only actual AA imagery in this dream is the sword, burning red in his fist. This adds the fire element to Jon, and also gives him the red&black color combination that the RLJ fans like. HOWEVER, he is also armored in black ice, which doesn't represent dragons or wolves. The Stark colors are grey and white, not black, and direwolves don't represent ice or darkness. They are simply one of the ancient races, like COTF and giants and mammoths, not harbingers of everlasting darkness. So this black ice/burning sword combination is NOT indicative of Stark + Targaryen, IMO, nor does it point to Jon being AA who has never been associated with ice that I know of. It makes sense that he would dream of a red burning sword after Stannis has recently shown up with Lightbringer, and Mel talks about it nonstop. They are all telling him that what he really needs to fight the Others is a burning sword, so that's what he dreams about. The black ice fits too: he already wears black every day, being a brother of the Watch, so of course that's the color he sees himself in. Being armored in ice reflects the fact that he is LC (also a recent and significant event) and thereby "married to the Wall"; it is his responsibility to keep the Others out and he will use the ice wall to do it. (Which seems wrong every time I think about it, but that's another topic)

We've already discussed that he feels guilty for the many people who died on both sides of the recent battle, since he is now going to let the remaining wildlings across - which means all these people, including Qhorin, Ygritte and all the rest, essentially died for nothing. So that's why he sees himself killing them; guilt and maybe a hint of doubt about what he is doing. The burning shafts and scarecrow brothers were real features of the battle at the Wall, so he is dreaming about it the way he remembers it. It all fits, he is the new LC, a 16 year old boy with an insane amount of responsibility, a heart in many conflicts, and probably more than a touch of PTSD. As he sleeps, his mind mingles his fears, guilts and doubts together with recent memories and voila, we have this weird half-memory, half-fictional scenario. [Not as fun as a prophetic dream, I know, but as a maester I feel obligated to point out that not every dream has to be prophetic. ;) Ned dreamed of the TOJ for years, with slight alterations such as his friends becoming wraiths just as Jon's became scarecrows - but ultimately built around a traumatic memory.] 

That's not to say the second part of the dream is not significant, especially in light of Black Crow's super creepy but awesome new suggestion that Ghost may have had a hand in that half... the half where Jon becomes a kinslayer, a kingslayer, a turncloak and an oathbreaker - but also lord of Winterfell. :devil:

Well that's a very good dream interpretation.  It's curious that both Jon and Dany dream of wearing black armor.  I agree that this doesn't necessarily point to RLJ but I think the black rose in Ned's dream is symbolic of Jon and the extension of the dream is the storm of petals blue as the eyes of death.  This does point to the ice side of the equation and I've wondered if the red sword of the dream is really a bloody sword.

What is curious about this dream is that there is an entity watching and attempting to wake him up.  The eagle calling his name that resolves into Mormont's Raven pecking at his chest (his heart) and reacting in a disgruntled manner.       

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well that's a very good dream interpretation.  It's curious that both Jon and Dany dream of wearing black armor.  I agree that this doesn't necessarily point to RLJ but I think the black rose in Ned's dream is symbolic of Jon and the extension of the dream is the storm of petals blue as the eyes of death.  This does point to the ice side of the equation and I've wondered if the red sword of the dream is really a bloody sword.   

As with other dreams in this story there may be a tendency to read it too literally despite GRRM's warnings.Superficially it can be easy to associate the black armour with Rhaegar and the flaming sword with Lightbringer, thus confirming that Jon is Azor Ahai, but as Maester Sam points out it can be interpreted very differently and as you suggest a burning sword [like that used by Beric Dondarrion] can be read as something else. Beric's burning sword certainly isn't Lightbringer, or anything else good but rather represents revenge [or "justice"] as the Red Sword of Battles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well that's a very good dream interpretation.  It's curious that both Jon and Dany dream of wearing black armor.  I agree that this doesn't necessarily point to RLJ but I think the black rose in Ned's dream is symbolic of Jon and the extension of the dream is the storm of petals blue as the eyes of death.  This does point to the ice side of the equation and I've wondered if the red sword of the dream is really a bloody sword.

What's even more curious is that in Dany's Wake the Dragon dream she is at the Trident, and her enemies are armored all in ice. She then melts them. :devil:

I do agree on the ice symbolism. Jon is clearly associated with ice - in this dream as in real life. He is a Stark and is bound to a Wall of ice. In addition,despite what I said earlier I wouldn't rule out the "ice armor" being a nod toward the coat of hoarfrost we see on the wights, and thus foreshadowing his own death and continued service on the Wall. 

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

What is curious about this dream is that there is an entity watching and attempting to wake him up.  The eagle calling his name that resolves into Mormont's Raven pecking at his chest (his heart) and reacting in a disgruntled manner.

Yes, exactly! Both the eagle and then the raven are calling his name. The second is especially significant, as it occurs right as the raven is waking him up, pulling him out of this dream in which he is killing friends and family to become the lord of Winterfell. And what does the raven call him? "Snow", to remind him that he is a bastard and not the rightful lord. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MaesterSam said:

Yes, exactly! Both the eagle and then the raven are calling his name. The second is especially significant, as it occurs right as the raven is waking him up, pulling him out of this dream in which he is killing friends and family to become the lord of Winterfell. And what does the raven call him? "Snow", to remind him that he is a bastard and not the rightful lord. 

It's interesting that something or someone is able to tap into Jon's dreams as an eagle and then Mormont's bird.   The raven isn't pecking at his third eye as the crow does in Bran's dream; but at his chest or more specifically at this heart.  Who is the eagle/raven?

Hodor seems to be able to do the same thing with Bran; standing by his bed with a candle:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase. Higher and higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

He woke gasping, lost in darkness, and saw a vast shadow looming over him. "I didn't hear," he whispered, trembling in fear, but then the shadow said "Hodor," and lit the candle by the bedside, and Bran sighed with relief.

We get something of an explanation from the kindly old man:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"Death is not the worst thing," the kindly man replied. "It is His gift to us, an end to want and pain. On the day that we are born the Many-Faced God sends each of us a dark angel to walk through life beside us. When our sins and our sufferings grow too great to be borne, the angel takes us by the hand to lead us to the nightlands, where the stars burn ever bright. Those who come to drink from the black cup are looking for their angels. If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?"

We know that Hodor is looking out for Bran; but who is looking out for Jon?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it.

He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken's forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay. At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran I

"We have plowed this field before," his sister said. "You want to make for the Wall, and your three-eyed crow. That's well and good, but the Wall is a very long way and Bran has no legs but Hodor. If we were mounted . . ."

"If we were eagles we might fly," said Jojen sharply, "but we have no wings, no more than we have horses."

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

The trail they followed was a little easier that day, and by noon the sun came breaking through the clouds. Bran sat in his basket up on Hodor's back and felt almost content. He dozed off once, lulled to sleep by the smooth swing of the big stableboy's stride and the soft humming sound he made sometimes when he walked. Meera woke him up with a light touch on his arm. "Look," she said, pointing at the sky with her frog spear, "an eagle."

Bran lifted his head and saw it, its grey wings spread and still as it floated on the wind. He followed it with his eyes as it circled higher, wondering what it would be like to soar about the world so effortless. Better than climbing, even. He tried to reach the eagle, to leave his stupid crippled body and rise into the sky to join it, the way he joined with Summer. The greenseers could do it. I should be able to do it too. He tried and tried, until the eagle vanished in the golden haze of the afternoon. "It's gone," he said, disappointed.

Perhaps Bran's wings are those of an eagle:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Maybe you do too.

Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MaesterSam said:

to remind him that he is a bastard and not the rightful lord. 

I'm not so sure. The phrase "snow, snow, snow" (in variations) is repeated by the raven over and over again across all books. It's like clapping to wake someone up. And the Cornking before is like an announcement or warning about the danger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

However, I noticed something interesting for the first time in this quote: the fact that the attackers are shooting burning arrows up at Jon and his scarecrows, and the scarecrows light on fire. This is not consistent with a prophetic dream of an Other attack, as the Others would not use flaming arrows.

It's also not consistent with physics; no one can shoot arrows from ground level to the top of a 700 foot Wall using a bow of medieval fashion.

I think it's fair to say it's a dream full of dualism -- contrasting symbols and features showing up with people and abstract entities where those symbols are not presently associated in the canon.  

The primary instance of this principle is Jon armored in ice, yet wielding a fiery sword.  Some, in another place, may tend to interpret this to mean Jon is the song of ice and fire, a Stark and yet also a Targ.  

I think a different explanation is likely to be in order, though not one we really have enough information at present to extrapolate with any confidence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, JNR said:

I think it's fair to say it's a dream full of dualism -- contrasting symbols and features showing up with people and abstract entities where those symbols are not presently associated in the canon.  

The primary instance of this principle is Jon armored in ice, yet wielding a fiery sword.  Some, in another place, may tend to interpret this to mean Jon is the song of ice and fire, a Stark and yet also a Targ.  

I think a different explanation is likely to be in order, though not one we really have enough information at present to extrapolate with any confidence.

I think what we can extrapolate is that dreams and visions in GRRM's world are not to be interpreted simply or rather literally. Time and again GRRM warns of this and yet there are dreams which some insist on treating as an historical record because they outwardly describe what the reader wants to believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to make a couple more observations on Jon's, or rather Ghost's, reaction to the offer of Winterfell,

First, it points up how strongly Jon is bound to both Winterfell and the Old Gods. As Maester Aemon proclaimed he is a son of Winterfell and no dusty parchment or any other "proof" will turn him into a Targaryen prince, far less Azor Ahai.

The only question is whether Jon is being used and is the means of entry by the Old Gods into Winterfell and what lies below.

That may be unnecessarily complicating matters but Jojen's explanation that in skinchanging the warg is in the wolf and the wolf in the warg is borne out by Ghost/Jon's reaction to Stannis offer and prompts me to think again about Mel's attempts to read the tea-leaves.

In one of her sessions she is startled to encounter the enemy, in the shape of a weirwood face and a boy who turns into a wolf, and howls. Conventionally these are identified as Bloodraven and Bran respectively, but they may in fact be Bran [tree] and Jon [wolf] instead.

Bran is unquestionably a warg but he's not the only one in town. He does use Summer, but only because he is handy and convenient. Bran is more effectively linked to the trees. Its how he communicates with Jon and unless something changes dramatically he will eventually go into the trees as Bryn Blackwood did.

Jon on the other hand is very closely linked to Ghost and we have seen him become the wolf in his blind fighting fury and in the episode under discussion. He switches back and forth with the wolf in a way that we don't really see Bran doing. It may, rightly, be objected of course that Mel sees a "boy" not Jon [who she does see in the tea-leaves], but we also have the business of kill the boy and let the man be born. At the time of this particular session Jon has not yet been killed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

I do agree on the ice symbolism. Jon is clearly associated with ice - in this dream as in real life. He is a Stark and is bound to a Wall of ice.

I respectfully disagree. It's the Others that are associated with ice. Jon clearly is trying to defend the realm from ice, but he's not allied with ice. Everything about Winterfell and the Starks are about defeating ice, from the name of the castle (Winter-fell), to the sword (Ice), to their warded King of Winter crown (9 iron swords surrounding bronze). The family seems like a sentry, the black knight, the sword and shield, and meant to insure the Watch does its duty, and provide backup should the Wall ever fail. I think Matthew is spot on with his interpretation of Jon's dream. Some of the Watch's best men died, because of Jon and his decisions. He's feeling guilty...doubly guilty, because he also wants Winterfell and a family. The flaming arrows are his own. What's the old saying about stabbing yourself in your own foot? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'd like to make a couple more observations on Jon's, or rather Ghost's, reaction to the offer of Winterfell,

First, it points up how strongly Jon is bound to both Winterfell and the Old Gods. As Maester Aemon proclaimed he is a son of Winterfell and no dusty parchment or any other "proof" will turn him into a Targaryen prince, far less Azor Ahai.

The only question is whether Jon is being used and is the means of entry by the Old Gods into Winterfell and what lies below.

That may be unnecessarily complicating matters but Jojen's explanation that in skinchanging the warg is in the wolf and the wolf in the warg is borne out by Ghost/Jon's reaction to Stannis offer and prompts me to think again about Mel's attempts to read the tea-leaves.

In one of her sessions she is startled to encounter the enemy, in the shape of a weirwood face and a boy who turns into a wolf, and howls. Conventionally these are identified as Bloodraven and Bran respectively, but they may in fact be Bran [tree] and Jon [wolf] instead.

Bran is unquestionably a warg but he's not the only one in town. He does use Summer, but only because he is handy and convenient. Bran is more effectively linked to the trees. Its how he communicates with Jon and unless something changes dramatically he will eventually go into the trees as Bryn Blackwood did.

Jon on the other hand is very closely linked to Ghost and we have seen him become the wolf in his blind fighting fury and in the episode under discussion. He switches back and forth with the wolf in a way that we don't really see Bran doing. It may, rightly, be objected of course that Mel sees a "boy" not Jon [who she does see in the tea-leaves], but we also have the business of kill the boy and let the man be born. At the time of this particular session Jon has not yet been killed.

This is officially my favorite new theory!!!

I'm not sure about the Mel vision, but everything else fits like a glove. It's dark and unexpected and with plenty of foreshadowing - perfect GRRM style! 

Speaking of Jon switching back and forth, there is also this here passage, taking place in ADWD when Jon rides out to the weirwood grove for new recruits to say their vows. They encounter some wildlings who yield, then start their words:

Quote

With their black hoods and thick black cowls, the six might have been carved from shadow. Their voices rose together, small against the vastness of the night. “Night gathers, and now my watch begins,” they said, as thousands had said before them. Satin’s voice was sweet as song, Horse’s hoarse and halting, Arron’s a nervous squeak. “It shall not end until my death.”
May those deaths be long in coming. Jon Snow sank to one knee in the snow. Gods of my fathers, protect these men. And Arya too, my little sister, wherever she might be. I pray you, let Mance find her and bring her safe to me.
“I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children,” the recruits promised, in voices that echoed back through years and centuries. “I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.”
Gods of the wood, grant me the strength to do the same, Jon Snow prayed silently. Give me the wisdom to know what must be done and the courage to do it.
“I am the sword in the darkness,” said the six, and it seemed to Jon as though their voices were changing, growing stronger, more certain. “I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.”
The shield that guards the realms of men. Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped an arm around him. He could smell Horse’s unwashed breeches, the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard, the rank sharp smell of fear, the giant’s overpowering musk. He could hear the beating of his own heart. When he looked across the grove at the woman with her child, the two greybeards, the Hornfoot man with his maimed feet, all he saw was men.
“I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.”
Jon Snow was the first onto his feet. “Rise now as men of the Night’s Watch.” He gave Horse a hand to pull him up.

This might be a hint at what to expect if the two truly mingle in a resurrected Jon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I respectfully disagree. It's the Others that are associated with ice. Jon clearly is trying to defend the realm from ice, but he's not allied with ice. Everything about Winterfell and the Starks are about defeating ice, 

I don't think its as simple as that. There's a popular theory out there that R+L=J means that Jon is the Prince that Was Promised/Azor Ahai and will defeat the Others, sorted. Given all the links to the Old Gods and the mystery of what's below Winterfell I think that something more interesting is going on, namely that the Starks were once bound to the Old Gods and that there is a connection with the Others, who arguably have Stark features, and I've argued before that they are Nazgul, the old Stark lords in a second life. Somewhere along the line, however, the pact was broken, the Nights King was overthrown and over the years the old allegiances forgotten - by the Starks at least.

Now the age-old conflict is coming to a head again. Azor Ahai, the champion of Fire has been prophesied and perhaps found in Danaerys the Dragonlord. Ice needs its champion to combat her and needs Jon to return to the Starks' old allegiance. All the way through Jon has been pulled and invited that way.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As to Mel, I'm currently inclined to see her behind his killing. From the outset she has recognised his potential and tried to woo him to her side. Lately however there have been two visions in the tea-leaves which may be connected. There is the vision of the enemy, appearing as both a weirwood face and as a boy switching back and forth with a wolf. There are also the visions in which she sees Jon surrounded by skulls. Her immediate reaction is to try and warn him of danger, but as I've argued long ago its also possible to read such a vision as revealing Jon himself as the danger, not threatened by the skulls but surrounded by the dead he has killed. If she puts both visions together, adding his refusal to help her and his championing of the Wildlings, she may be seeing him as a very clear and present danger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think its as simple as that. There's a popular theory out there that R+L=J means that Jon is the Prince that Was Promised/Azor Ahai and will defeat the Others, sorted. Given all the links to the Old Gods and the mystery of what's below Winterfell I think that something more interesting is going on, namely that the Starks were once bound to the Old Gods and that there is a connection with the Others, who arguably have Stark features, and I've argued before that they are Nazgul, the old Stark lords in a second life. Somewhere along the line, however, the pact was broken, the Nights King was overthrown and over the years the old allegiances forgotten - by the Starks at least.

Now the age-old conflict is coming to a head again. Azor Ahai, the champion of Fire has been prophesied and perhaps found in Danaerys the Dragonlord. Ice needs its champion to combat her and needs Jon to return to the Starks' old allegiance. All the way through Jon has been pulled and invited that way.

 

 

I don't think that what you're saying and what I'm saying are all that far apart. The Starks were complicit in overthrowing the Nights King, and the things I mentioned (Winter-fell, Ice, and iron warding bronze) are in agreement with that. The ability of Starks to skin change must be important. Maybe it was a tool that enabled them to fight against and defeat the Others? If you're already dead it would be difficult to kill you.

The wildlings - which are multiple groups of various tribes, including giants, and more savage species of men, were Otherized. 

otherize (third-person singular simple present otherizespresent participle otherizingsimple past and past participle otherized)

  1. (transitive) To make or regard (a person, social group, etc.) as alien or different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't think that what you're saying and what I'm saying are all that far apart. The Starks were complicit in overthrowing the Nights King, and the things I mentioned (Winter-fell, Ice, and iron warding bronze) are in agreement with that. The ability of Starks to skin change must be important. Maybe it was a tool that enabled them to fight against and defeat the Others? If you're already dead it would be difficult to kill you.

I disagree with the last bit. I think that the Starks gained the warging ability through their allegiance to the Ice, and lost it when the pact was broken. Now they are being offered it again through the wolves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×