Heresy 207 :skinchanging

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

If the old gods sent the mother direwolf and pups, then they are connected to Bloodraven who watched and waited for Bran. He has a purpose in mind, even if we're not privy to the whole plan yet.

Bloodraven may have watched but no more than that. Most of him has gone into the trees and he could only visit Bran in dreams. As we've discussed before there isn't a lot of him left.

The she-wolf certainly appears to have been sent by the old gods, but there's a very big difference between sending her off with encouraging cries of "go get 'em, girl" and "it won't hurt - honest" as opposed to taking her by the paw and mapping every move.

[Melifeather]

45 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Bloodraven may have watched but no more than that. Most of him has gone into the trees and he could only visit Bran in dreams. As we've discussed before there isn't a lot of him left.

The she-wolf certainly appears to have been sent by the old gods, but there's a very big difference between sending her off with encouraging cries of "go get 'em, girl" and "it won't hurt - honest" as opposed to taking her by the paw and mapping every move.

Think about Ghost's appearance and Jon's status as a bastard. Bloodraven has white hair and a red eye, and he's a Targaryen bastard - and a Great Bastard at that. Furthermore Bloodraven is very much an Odin-type character connected to both ravens and wolves. Bloodraven may have been looking for Bran, and if the looping history wheel is a real thing, then Brans's place on the wheel is to fulfill the role of all the Brandons throughout history. But it's Jon that seems to be closer to fulfilling the role of Odin.

As The Fattest Leach makes clear in her thread, right now Jon "knows nothing", but maybe its because he  hasn't lost his eye yet? When he was attacked by the eagle the blood from the wound filled one eye, and for a time he thought he lost it, but The Fattest Leach asserts that Jon was looking or examining his First Men's blood, and afterward his viewpoint is changed.

The appearance of Ghost along with Mormont's raven connects Jon to Bloodraven/Odin, and that direwolf may even be Bloodraven in animal form himself.

[Black Crow]

Bloodraven reflects the weirwood colouring, not the other way around and its when Jon notices the significance of Ghost's red eyes [two] and white fur that he declares Ghost belongs to the old gods

[Melifeather]

28 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Bloodraven reflects the weirwood colouring, not the other way around and its when Jon notices the significance of Ghost's red eyes [two] and white fur that he declares Ghost belongs to the old gods

Bloodraven was born an albino. Was his conception manipulated by the old gods too?

[Matthew.]

51 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Bloodraven was born an albino. Was his conception manipulated by the old gods too?

You ask this jokingly, but Jojen suggests it literally as regards those born among the CotF with red eyes, that they are "marked by the gods." I mean, I don't believe that the old gods are intervening in such a literal sense, but it is purposeful association that Bloodraven, the Ghost of High Heart, and Ghost The Direwolf share the coloring of the weirwood.

It is one of the most blatantly "fairy tale-esque" aspects of GRRM's storytelling that many characters tend to exhibit physical characteristics and personality traits that one would associate with the animals, colors, and symbols of their respective Houses--with noble houses themselves reflecting a fairy tale level of categorization and tautology that is not really striving for medieval authenticity.

So, I would be inclined to agree with BC that Ghost's coloring is meant to evoke the old gods, rather than Bloodraven specifically (who is, himself, meant to evoke the old gods).

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

You ask this jokingly, but Jojen suggests it literally as regards those born among the CotF with red eyes, that they are "marked by the gods." I mean, I don't believe that the old gods are intervening in such a literal sense, but it is purposeful association that Bloodraven, the Ghost of High Heart, and Ghost The Direwolf share the coloring of the weirwood.

It is one of the most blatantly "fairy tale-esque" aspects of GRRM's storytelling that many characters tend to exhibit physical characteristics and personality traits that one would associate with the animals, colors, and symbols of their respective Houses--with noble houses themselves reflecting a fairy tale level of categorization and tautology that is not really striving for medieval authenticity.

So, I would be inclined to agree with BC that Ghost's coloring is meant to evoke the old gods, rather than Bloodraven specifically (who is, himself, meant to evoke the old gods).

Yes, I am familiar with Jojen’s explanation of how the Children are marked, but I didn’t think it applied to humans as Bran isn’t marked. He has the physical characteristics of a Tully even if the blood of Starks runs in his veins and is a greenseer by birth.

[Matthew.]

29 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, I am familiar with Jojen’s explanation of how the Children are marked, but I didn’t think it applied to humans as Bran isn’t marked. He has the physical characteristics of a Tully even if the blood of Starks runs in his veins and is a greenseer by birth.

That's true enough with Bran, but in addition to BR, the GoHH is 'marked' by her albinism and has green dreams, and Jojen has moss green eyes - another manner in which the old gods are said to mark their chosen ones - and also has green dreams, so it seems a frequent enough occurrence to suggest the symbolic association is being repeated with humanity.

To reiterate, I am not attempting to promote some sort of genetic plot idea, just that it is a purposeful storytelling association, and that when Jojen speaks of Ghost belonging to the old gods, that's probably not far off the mark--Ghost appears to be guiding Jon well, as his 'senses' were correct regarding the Fist, and he led Jon to the cache of dragonglass.

[Melifeather]

19 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

That's true enough with Bran, but in addition to BR, the GoHH is 'marked' by her albinism and has green dreams, and Jojen has moss green eyes - another manner in which the old gods are said to mark their chosen ones - and also has green dreams, so it seems a frequent enough occurrence to suggest the symbolic association is being repeated with humanity.

To reiterate, I am not attempting to promote some sort of genetic plot idea, just that it is a purposeful storytelling association, and that when Jojen speaks of Ghost belonging to the old gods, that's probably not far off the mark--Ghost appears to be guiding Jon well, as his 'senses' were correct regarding the Fist, and he led Jon to the cache of dragonglass.

The Ghost of High Heart is likely a Children of the Forest or a hybrid of human/CotF, and the Crannogmen are close to them as well and may have also interbred.

[The Fattest Leech]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Think about Ghost's appearance and Jon's status as a bastard. Bloodraven has white hair and a red eye, and he's a Targaryen bastard - and a Great Bastard at that. Furthermore Bloodraven is very much an Odin-type character connected to both ravens and wolves. Bloodraven may have been looking for Bran, and if the looping history wheel is a real thing, then Brans's place on the wheel is to fulfill the role of all the Brandons throughout history. But it's Jon that seems to be closer to fulfilling the role of Odin.

As The Fattest Leach makes clear in her thread, right now Jon "knows nothing", but maybe its because he  hasn't lost his eye yet? When he was attacked by the eagle the blood from the wound filled one eye, and for a time he thought he lost it, but The Fattest Leach asserts that Jon was looking or examining his First Men's blood, and afterward his viewpoint is changed.

The appearance of Ghost along with Mormont's raven connects Jon to Bloodraven/Odin, and that direwolf may even be Bloodraven in animal form himself.

I am no expert, just a curious wanderer

I do think that what Jon will wake up and realize as the "man is born" thing happens, will be the culmination of knowledge that he has gained so far. He is slowly peeling away the misinformation about certain people and beliefs as his story goes on. A dastardly strip tease until we get the full monty. Because of Jon, we readers now know that the free folk are just people, the rumors south of the wall are just rumors, aside from the baddies like the Weeper (but the south has plenty of "Weepers" as well). Jon also knows the real threat, has been rejected help by King's Landing, been tempted by Stannis, insulted by Selyse, threatened by Ramsay, etc. I hate sounding like a Jon fangirl, but I think this was the importance of his arc in the story as a whole.

40 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, I am familiar with Jojen’s explanation of how the Children are marked, but I didn’t think it applied to humans as Bran isn’t marked. He has the physical characteristics of a Tully even if the blood of Starks runs in his veins and is a greenseer by birth.

I agree, totally weird (unless I am forgetting something), but one thing that I mentioned in that other thread is that Jon may come back with "the mark" somehow? Speculation, of course. I proposed that he may come back with a white streak in his hair, or just thinking about it now, maybe he comes back with a red eye (for whatever reason)? It could be that we have not seen it yet. Maybe Theon's hair went white while he was in his "underworld" state, maybe it will with Jon as well. I dunno.

24 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

That's true enough with Bran, but in addition to BR, the GoHH is 'marked' by her albinism and has green dreams, and Jojen has moss green eyes - another manner in which the old gods are said to mark their chosen ones - and also has green dreams, so it seems a frequent enough occurrence to suggest the symbolic association is being repeated with humanity.

To reiterate, I am not attempting to promote some sort of genetic plot idea, just that it is a purposeful storytelling association, and that when Jojen speaks of Ghost belonging to the old gods, that's probably not far off the mark--Ghost appears to be guiding Jon well, as his 'senses' were correct regarding the Fist, and he led Jon to the cache of dragonglass.

Yeah, I have been down too many a genetic rabbithole during my time here. I think what genetic rules we may have could only apply to the main houses for plot reasons- Stark, Targaryen, Lannister... and Baratheon because of supposed blood connections. I doubt we will ever see a genetic coding map in any detail.

Agreed regarding Ghost and the cache.

[Melifeather]

41 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I am no expert, just a curious wanderer

I do think that what Jon will wake up and realize as the "man is born" thing happens, will be the culmination of knowledge that he has gained so far. He is slowly peeling away the misinformation about certain people and beliefs as his story goes on. A dastardly strip tease until we get the full monty. Because of Jon, we readers now know that the free folk are just people, the rumors south of the wall are just rumors, aside from the baddies like the Weeper (but the south has plenty of "Weepers" as well). Jon also knows the real threat, has been rejected help by King's Landing, been tempted by Stannis, insulted by Selyse, threatened by Ramsay, etc. I hate sounding like a Jon fangirl, but I think this was the importance of his arc in the story as a whole.

I agree, totally weird (unless I am forgetting something), but one thing that I mentioned in that other thread is that Jon may come back with "the mark" somehow? Speculation, of course. I proposed that he may come back with a white streak in his hair, or just thinking about it now, maybe he comes back with a red eye (for whatever reason)? It could be that we have not seen it yet. Maybe Theon's hair went white while he was in his "underworld" state, maybe it will with Jon as well. I dunno.

Yeah, I have been down too many a genetic rabbithole during my time here. I think what genetic rules we may have could only apply to the main houses for plot reasons- Stark, Targaryen, Lannister... and Baratheon because of supposed blood connections. I doubt we will ever see a genetic coding map in any detail.

Agreed regarding Ghost and the cache.

I so appreciate your work, and I hope you aren’t too offended when I draw a contrary impression. While I agree Jon knows nothing “yet”, his brushing away of the blood running into his eye is a literal refusal of knowledge. He thinks he’s got the right of it that the wildlings are just people, but I believe he still knows nothing. Maybe if he had left his eye full of blood his other eye would have realized that Orell’s eagle  wasn’t even trying to keep his wilding hatred of Starks concealed.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I so appreciate your work, and I hope you aren’t too offended when I draw a contrary impression.

Thank you, and never you mind about differing opinions. Descent discussion is what it is all about.

Quote

While I agree Jon knows nothing “yet”, his brushing away of the blood running into his eye is a literal refusal of refusing knowledge. He thinks he’s got the right of it that the wildlings are just people, but I believe he still knows nothing. Maybe if he had left his eye full of blood his other eye would have realized that Orell’s eagle  wasn’t keeping his wilding hatred concealed.

Yeah, I started to re-read that chapter, but had to stop halfway through to make dinner. I will get back to the entire thing soon. It is a tricky scene and one that used to be discussed more often around these parts.

[Melifeather]

Some theorize that Melisandre is Jon’s enemy, but she did warn him to beware of those that smile to his face and sharpen their knives behind his back. Bowen Marsh and his buddies never concealed their dislike, so I don’t believe they are who she meant. Don’t forget that there should be an ice priestess the inversion to Melisandre that knows how to cast spells too. The wildlings are not Jon’s friends.

[Brad Stark]

Could Ghost have been meant for Bran?  

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Could Ghost have been meant for Bran?  

No, its made pretty explicit that each of the children got the wolf they were meant to have and particularly so when it comes to Jon and Ghost

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Some theorize that Melisandre is Jon’s enemy, but she did warn him to beware of those that smile to his face and sharpen their knives behind his back. Bowen Marsh and his buddies never concealed their dislike, so I don’t believe they are who she meant. Don’t forget that there should be an ice priestess the inversion to Melisandre that knows how to cast spells too. The wildlings are not Jon’s friends.

Melisandre does not regard Jon as an enemy - yet - but she does sense his power and wants to use it. I also disagree as to the Wildlings, their story is of a people feared and hated whom Jon is literally leading out of the wilderness and who in the end may do more to resolve this business than the squabbling southerners.

I don't agree with your inversion theory, but if an Ice magician is needed, Val may be a candidate although I wouldn't rule out Bran himself.

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

...I have been down too many a genetic rabbithole during my time here. I think what genetic rules we may have could only apply to the main houses for plot reasons- Stark, Targaryen, Lannister... and Baratheon because of supposed blood connections. I doubt we will ever see a genetic coding map in any detail.

Its a bit like trying to figure out the laws of magic. GRRM has said something before that there are no strict laws because it wouldn't be magic. Things happen as they do in his books because they need to happen at that particular point in the story

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, I am familiar with Jojen’s explanation of how the Children are marked, but I didn’t think it applied to humans as Bran isn’t marked. He has the physical characteristics of a Tully even if the blood of Starks runs in his veins and is a greenseer by birth.

But on the other hand its a pretty common plot device in literature that someone is not marked

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, Matthew. said:

You ask this jokingly, but Jojen suggests it literally as regards those born among the CotF with red eyes, that they are "marked by the gods." I mean, I don't believe that the old gods are intervening in such a literal sense, but it is purposeful association that Bloodraven, the Ghost of High Heart, and Ghost The Direwolf share the coloring of the weirwood.

It is one of the most blatantly "fairy tale-esque" aspects of GRRM's storytelling that many characters tend to exhibit physical characteristics and personality traits that one would associate with the animals, colors, and symbols of their respective Houses--with noble houses themselves reflecting a fairy tale level of categorization and tautology that is not really striving for medieval authenticity.

So, I would be inclined to agree with BC that Ghost's coloring is meant to evoke the old gods, rather than Bloodraven specifically (who is, himself, meant to evoke the old gods).

I agree by the way 

[redriver]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree by the way 

And Ser Shadrich's sigil too!The Reeds are certainly of the old god school.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, redriver said:

And Ser Shadrich's sigil too!The Reeds are certainly of the old god school.

Good point, and to re-iterate once again, in a conflict which has been waged since time began it is a mistake to attribute too much to an individual player such as Bryn Blackwood, who may be past his sell-by date but certainly isn't that ancient.