Another Dance of the dragons?

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

7 hours ago, bent branch said:

know you think what you are saying makes sense. However, it is irrational for you to be expecting Stannis to be running around the north like a madman talking about mythical beings and prophecies. We saw how well that worked for the Targaryens. For instance, what you are refusing to acknowledge that when Stannis is talking to the Wildlings he is talking to people who KNOW the others are real and moving south. Practically no one south of the Wall believes in the Others, wights, etc. Marwyn warned Sam to not talk about these things unless he wanted to end up dead. Seriously, Stannis is doing the best thing he can in eliminating the threat from the south so that he can so he can turn his attention north.

I agree, it would do Stannis no good to be telling the Northern lords he’s the Prince that was Promised because they’d think he was a madman. Portraying himself as the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and working to vanquish the Ironborn from the Northern shores and restore the Starks to Winterfell/avenge the Red Wedding is the best strategy for winning the support of the Northern lords. 

[UnFit Finlay]

On 24/03/2018 at 0:54 AM, Sea Dragon said:

What? This is crazy and not true at all. The people of Westeros are ready for a Targaryen to return and one who has dragons will correct the wrongs of the past recent kings. 

And Danaerys is not mad. She knows her father was mad and she will not be like him. 

Does that matter?

The series is full of examples of people being judged wrongly by the rest of the realm. Jaime, for example, is mocked and despised for killing Aerys, even though he saved King's Landing by doing it. Brienne is also seen as a Kingslayer. WE know she didn't do it but

Point is, if people believe Daenerys is mad (and they will) then it isn't doesn't really matter whether she is or not.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I see the Dance of Dragons kicking off over Pentos. The pieces are all there: Barristan swore, on his honour, that Daenerys would deliver it to the Tattered Prince. Dany refused before solely because she considers Illyrio a friend. Tyrion, however, knows exactly what Illyrio planned for her and that he's been backing another contender the entire time. She might not be the "Mad Queen" but she'll definitely be bloody angry. And it'll make her impossible decision pretty much a no brainer.

Aegon doesn't know any of this though. All he'll see is the Mad Queen attacking his benefactor, who has done nothing but be a friend to her. If Varys description of him is in anyway accurate he'll feel duty bound to try and stop her.

On 24/03/2018 at 1:00 AM, Sea Dragon said:

I think you might be being sarcastic here, I can't really tell, but Danaerys and Jon are the point of the story. The title of the story as you say. There has to be some peace after a zombie fight and Danaerys and Jon will be there to bring a new elite back to Westeros. I mean , I guess I don't see why to have such a big fight if things don't work out in the end.

God, I hope not.

I mean, I like the characters (actually almost every character) but if the series ends with either of them still alive I'd be quite disappointed. They are too "special" for me. If the bloke who came back from the dead and the woman who hatched dragons out of stone are still around at the end then it really won't feel like an ending to me.

[bent branch]

1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

If the bloke who came back from the dead

Jon hasn't even died yet.

[UnFit Finlay]

2 hours ago, bent branch said:

Jon hasn't even died yet.

If he survived all those stabbings then I'm on Team Others. A Nights Watch with members that crap deserve to be Wighted.

He's totally dying though. Otherwise any speculation about what he does after is pointless because he's sworn to serve until his death. Dying and being brought back is the only loophole.

[Lollygag]

34 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

If he survived all those stabbings then I'm on Team Others. A Nights Watch with members that crap deserve to be Wighted.

He's totally dying though. Otherwise any speculation about what he does after is pointless because he's sworn to serve until his death. Dying and being brought back is the only loophole.

There's a lot to point to for set up for Jon's only being in a coma for an indeterminate amount of time. I'm sure there's a thread or several somewhere though I'm sorry I can't think of any off-hand to guide you to. 

Robb, Catelyn and Stannis all disagree with you on this and I don't see where many characters get convenient sleezy lawyeresque loopholes from GRRM which excuse them from their choices. It's more like putting the characters in screwed up situations with no clear solution and trying to see them work their way out of it themselves. 

[UnFit Finlay]

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

There's a lot to point to for set up for Jon's only being in a coma for an indeterminate amount of time. I'm sure there's a thread or several somewhere though I'm sorry I can't think of any off-hand to guide you to. 

Robb, Catelyn and Stannis all disagree with you on this and I don't see where many characters get convenient sleezy lawyeresque loopholes from GRRM which excuse them from their choices. It's more like putting the characters in screwed up situations with no clear solution and trying to see them work their way out of it themselves. 

And Jon disagrees with you. I'd say Stannis and Robb's plans were far more sleezy than Jon actually dying either.

It's not really excusing Jon from his choices either. If anything, it's excusing GRRM from his. If Jon doesn't fulfill the terms of his oath then the revelation about his real parentage is going to be hell of a lot less dramatic and, as I said, any discussion of what he does at the end of the series is pointless: He'll guard the North until he dies.

[Lollygag]

23 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

And Jon disagrees with you. I'd say Stannis and Robb's plans were far more sleezy than Jon actually dying either.

It's not really excusing Jon from his choices either. If anything, it's excusing GRRM from his. If Jon doesn't fulfill the terms of his oath then the revelation about his real parentage is going to be hell of a lot less dramatic and, as I said, any discussion of what he does at the end of the series is pointless: He'll guard the North until he dies.

Jon doesn't disagree as he turned down Winterfell because it required burning down the heart tree, not because of his oath. So it stands that Jon's oath is no obstacle to his taking another path and it's certainly not a given that he's dead. 

I don't follow your reasoning in the second paragraph. You yourself called his dying a "loophole". 

6 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

He's totally dying though. Otherwise any speculation about what he does after is pointless because he's sworn to serve until his death. Dying and being brought back is the only loophole.

 

Loophole

A loophole is an ambiguity or inadequacy in a system, such as a law or security, which can be used to circumvent or otherwise avoid the purpose, implied or explicitly stated, of the system. Originally, the word means an arrowslit, a narrow vertical window in a wall through which an archer could shoot.

 

[bent branch]

8 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

If he survived all those stabbings then I'm on Team Others. A Nights Watch with members that crap deserve to be Wighted.

He's totally dying though. Otherwise any speculation about what he does after is pointless because he's sworn to serve until his death. Dying and being brought back is the only loophole.

Well the ones who stabbed him were two stewards and a builder. Who the fourth person might have been we don't know. In real life, many people survive shootings and stabbings. When I was eight, my five year old brother was playing with a sharp knife from the kitchen. When I tried to take it away from him, he accidentally stabbed me in the neck. Since we lived rurally, it took over an hour for me to get to a doctor. When we arrived, the doctor said it was lucky I had rolling veins, since when my brother stabbed me, my jugular vein had rolled away from the knife entering my neck. Because of this, my jugular had gotten only a tiny nick and I was bleeding out very slowly.

The point to this is that an injury doesn't necessarily equal death. The only person who has died in their own POV in the story is Catelyn (minus prologues and epilogues). Everyone else we have learned about their death from another POV. Many readers have been caught out by this. I myself was convinced Theon was dead. I was wrong. So Jon isn't dead story wise until we see his dead body from someone else's POV. I'm just saying.

I will admit I don't want Jon to be dead because if Melisandre raises him, Jon will just be an animated corpse, not a living being. I think it would be terrible if Jon were a Beric or Catelyn for the rest of the story.

[UnFit Finlay]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Jon doesn't disagree as he turned down Winterfell because it required burning down the heart tree, not because of his oath. So it stands that Jon's oath is no obstacle to his taking another path and it's certainly not a given that he's dead. 

 

 

Actually re-reading it, there's a few related factors that play into his decision. Ultimately it's when Ghost returns and reminds him that he's not a Stark that convinces him. It is clear that he believes it would be breaking his vows however. "All he had to do was say the word, and he would be Jon Stark, and nevermore a Snow. All he had to do was pledge this King his fealty, and Winterfell was his. All he had to do..........was forswear his vows again." 

 

Quote

 

Loophole

A loophole is an ambiguity or inadequacy in a system, such as a law or security, which can be used to circumvent or otherwise avoid the purpose, implied or explicitly stated, of the system. Originally, the word means an arrowslit, a narrow vertical window in a wall through which an archer could shoot.

 

 

What's confusing about it?

One of the major characters in the series has been written into a corner. It's going to be extremely difficult to satisfactorily progress his story with the whole "sworn to spend the rest of his life in servitude". thing hanging over him. Jon dying, especially at the hands of his own men, frees him from that without selling out the character by having him do something he KNOWS is dishonourable.

[UnFit Finlay]

33 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Well the ones who stabbed him were two stewards and a builder. Who the fourth person might have been we don't know. In real life, many people survive shootings and stabbings. When I was eight, my five year old brother was playing with a sharp knife from the kitchen. When I tried to take it away from him, he accidentally stabbed me in the neck. Since we lived rurally, it took over an hour for me to get to a doctor. When we arrived, the doctor said it was lucky I had rolling veins, since when my brother stabbed me, my jugular vein had rolled away from the knife entering my neck. Because of this, my jugular had gotten only a tiny nick and I was bleeding out very slowly.

That was an accident though. It's a bit different from a carefully planned assassination attempt. If they can't kill one guy, with the fate of the Watch, and the realm, at stake, then they all deserve to be Wighted. Jon too. They are his men and their crapness is completely his responsibility.

Quote

I will admit I don't want Jon to be dead because if Melisandre raises him, Jon will just be an animated corpse, not a living being. I think it would be terrible if Jon were a Beric or Catelyn for the rest of the story.

I disagree.

Catelyn is one thing, because she was dead for so long that Thoros refused to bring her back, but I'd argue that Beric was more than a re-animated corpse. He's not the same as he was but it's not like he was a Wight.

It's pure speculation but I'm guessing Jon will come back relatively the same as he was.

[bent branch]

17 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

That was an accident though. It's a bit different from a carefully planned assassination attempt. If they can't kill one guy, with the fate of the Watch, and the realm, at stake, then they all deserve to be Wighted. Jon too. They are his men and their crapness is completely his responsibility.

I disagree.

Catelyn is one thing, because she was dead for so long that Thoros refused to bring her back, but I'd argue that Beric was more than a re-animated corpse. He's not the same as he was but it's not like he was a Wight.

It's pure speculation but I'm guessing Jon will come back relatively the same as he was.

It doesn't matter how long the person is dead. Thoros brought Beric back almost immediately yet his wounds didn't heal and he stopped eating and sleeping. His mental condition became worse with each successive raising, but Beric was just a reanimated corpse from the first raising. Much like Coldhands. And Melisandre would use much the same technique as Thoros I'm sure.

[SeanF]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 0:54 AM, Sea Dragon said:

What? This is crazy and not true at all. The people of Westeros are ready for a Targaryen to return and one who has dragons will correct the wrongs of the past recent kings. 

And Danaerys is not mad. She knows her father was mad and she will not be like him. 

I think that Arianne's first chapter in TWOW indicates what a lot of people in Westeros will think of Daenerys - a woman who murdered both her brother and her husband to get ahead.  On top of that, she's likely to have invaded Western Essos, and left a trail of bloodshed behind her.  No doubt people will flee across the Narrow Sea, bringing terrible stories with them.   And, she's the Mad King's Daughter.  It won't matter whether these charges are true or not, they'll be widely believed. 

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

 

Actually re-reading it, there's a few related factors that play into his decision. Ultimately it's when Ghost returns and reminds him that he's not a Stark that convinces him. It is clear that he believes it would be breaking his vows however. "All he had to do was say the word, and he would be Jon Stark, and nevermore a Snow. All he had to do was pledge this King his fealty, and Winterfell was his. All he had to do..........was forswear his vows again." 

 

 

What's confusing about it?

One of the major characters in the series has been written into a corner. It's going to be extremely difficult to satisfactorily progress his story with the whole "sworn to spend the rest of his life in servitude". thing hanging over him. Jon dying, especially at the hands of his own men, frees him from that without selling out the character by having him do something he KNOWS is dishonourable.

You either have reading comprehension problems or you’re deliberately mischaracterizing the text to support your view and it’s very dishonest.. Jon’s oath is not in the way of various possible other plot directions for him. Jon hears that Janos is about to be elected LC and he literally thinks the NW is no longer a viable place for him. See below which was actually when he finalized his decision. And it was burning the heart-tree which was his deal-breaker.

If you can’t read, that’s not my problem. I’m not recounting the books to you anymore after this. And if you’re being intentionally dishonest then I will no longer engage in conversation with you as you know it’s DISHONORABLE. And I noticed that your counterargument is just restating your original position. Per Robb, Catelyn, Stannis (and Jon), his oath is no impediment to his arc going elsewhere. 

 

Quote

ASOS Jon XII

You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

The sound of voices echoing off the vaulted ceiling brought him back to Castle Black. "I don't know," a man was saying, in a voice thick with doubts. "Maybe if I knew the man better . . . Lord Stannis didn't have much good to say of him, I'll tell you that."

"When has Stannis Baratheon ever had much good to say of anyone?" Ser Alliser's flinty voice was unmistakable. "If we let Stannis choose our Lord Commander, we become his bannermen in all but name. Tywin Lannister is not like to forget that, and you know it will be Lord Tywin who wins in the end. He's already beaten Stannis once, on the Blackwater."

"Lord Tywin favors Slynt," said Bowen Marsh, in a fretful, anxious voice. "I can show you his letter, Othell. 'Our faithful friend and servant,' he called him."

Jon Snow sat up suddenly, and the three men froze at the sound of the slosh. "My lords," he said with cold courtesy.

"What are you doing here, bastard?" Thorne asked.

"Bathing. But don't let me spoil your plotting." Jon climbed from the water, dried, dressed, and left them to conspire.

Outside, he found he had no idea where he was going. He walked past the shell of the Lord Commander's Tower, where once he'd saved the Old Bear from a dead man; past the spot where Ygritte had died with that sad smile on her face; past the King's Tower where he and Satin and Deaf Dick Follard had waited for the Magnar and his Thenns; past the heaped and charred remains of the great wooden stair. The inner gate was open, so Jon went down the tunnel, through the Wall. He could feel the cold around him, the weight of all the ice above his head. He walked past the place where Donal Noye and Mag the Mighty had fought and died together, through the new outer gate, and back into the pale cold sunlight.

Only then did he permit himself to stop, to take a breath, to think. Othell Yarwyck was not a man of strong convictions, except when it came to wood and stone and mortar. The Old Bear had known that. Thorne and Marsh will sway him, Yarwyck will support Lord Janos, and Lord Janos will be chosen Lord Commander. And what does that leave me, if not Winterfell?

A wind swirled against the Wall, tugging at his cloak. He could feel the cold coming off the ice the way heat comes off a fire. Jon pulled up his hood and began to walk again. The afternoon was growing old, and the sun was low in the west. A hundred yards away was the camp where King Stannis had confined his wildling captives within a ring of ditches, sharpened stakes, and high wooden fences. To his left were three great firepits, where the victors had burned the bodies of all the free folk to die beneath the Wall, huge pelted giants and little Hornfoot men alike. The killing ground was still a desolation of scorched weeds and hardened pitch, but Mance's people had left traces of themselves everywhere; a torn hide that might have been part of a tent, a giant's maul, the wheel of a chariot, a broken spear, a pile of mammoth dung. On the edge of the haunted forest, where the tents had been, Jon found an oakwood stump and sat.

Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . . though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder's queen, but still . . .

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. "Ghost?" He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. "Ghost!" he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. "Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams." The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

He had his answer then.

 

As for you assertion that Jon is going to some nice, clean loophole (clean loophole is an oxymoron), I think you had it right earlier upthread when you made my case for me. But you switched your position since then or are applying it arbitrarily as you like. I stand by assertion that GRRM doesn't readily hand out sleezy loopholes to make things  easy, nice and pretty for the characters to falsely absolve them of any internal conflict. 

 

16 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

The series is full of examples of people being judged wrongly by the rest of the realm. Jaime, for example, is mocked and despised for killing Aerys, even though he saved King's Landing by doing it. Brienne is also seen as a Kingslayer. WE know she didn't do it but

 

16 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I mean, I like the characters (actually almost every character) but if the series ends with either of them still alive I'd be quite disappointed. They are too "special" for me. If the bloke who came back from the dead and the woman who hatched dragons out of stone are still around at the end then it really won't feel like an ending to me.

You are contradicting yourself, misinterpreting text as it suits you or have phenomenal reading comprehension issues, and are just restating your positions without addressing the points I've brought up.

I won't be reading any more of your posts. Goodbye.

[UnFit Finlay]

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

It doesn't matter how long the person is dead. Thoros brought Beric back almost immediately yet his wounds didn't heal and he stopped eating and sleeping. His mental condition became worse with each successive raising, but Beric was just a reanimated corpse from the first raising. Much like Coldhands. And Melisandre would use much the same technique as Thoros I'm sure.

That's not what Thoros said.

The subject is arguable, I suppose, and it's not like there's any real science behind it. I'd personally say that we've seen too many different resurrections to lump them all together:  Lady Stoneheart is a horrific corruption of everything Catelyn Stark was. Beric is changed but is still fundamentally Beric. Wights clearly retain some memory of themselves but other than that there's no suggestion that they are anything more than mindless thralls to the Others. We've got no idea what Coldhands is, and other characters who may well have returned from the dead open up the scope even more. Patchface, for example. Not to mention Aeron and his Drowned Men. Are they all just reanimated corpses?

With that said, that is why I want Jon to die, for keeps, before the end of the series. The Prince That Was Promised coming back from the dead only to sacrifice himself, again, to save the Realm is a fitting end to the character. Him spending his life in the Night's Watch, or breaking his vows, or saving the realm and then, like, going back to a normal life like nothing happened wouldn't feel like an ending to me.

[Lost Melnibonean]

25 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

[Snip] And it was burning the heart-tree which was his deal-breaker.

[Snip]

Dealbreaker or straw that broke the camel's back? 

[UnFit Finlay]

15 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

 

I won't be reading any more of your posts. Goodbye.

U mad bro?

I stated my opinion and backed it up with text. You've responded with insults and ignored what I've actually said. For example, I want Jon and Dany to die at the end because I feel that they are too "special" for it to feel like an ending to me. That, in no way, means that GRRM shouldn't make them special and that is in no way contradicting my argument. I've got no idea how me acknowledging how other characters have been written contradicts my thoughts on Jon being brought back from the dead either. I said it was a loophole, you're the one arguing that it would be a nice clean loophole that would have no ill effects at all whatsoever.

if you're incapable of actually arguing a point or admitting when you're mistaken - like I did when I acknowledged that it was Ghost returning reminding Jon that he isn't a Stark, which you quoted (but ignored. Because it doesn't fit your argument) that made his mind up and not his vows - then I don't particularly want to interact with you either.

[Lollygag]

10 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Dealbreaker or straw that broke the camel's back? 

Jon was able to work with Stannis' other conditions as shown above, so yeah, I see it as a deal-breaker. 

What's your take on the straw that broke the camel's back angle?

[Lost Melnibonean]

36 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Jon was able to work with Stannis' other conditions as shown above, so yeah, I see it as a deal-breaker. 

What's your take on the straw that broke the camel's back angle?

Just one more objectionable condition, the offer was so tempting, but he wasn't going to forswear the gods of his father. At least that's my take. 

[Lollygag]

8 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Just one more objectionable condition, the offer was so tempting, but he wasn't going to forswear the gods of his father. At least that's my take. 

I guess. I'm just not seeing Jon object enough for those other things to register with me. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

41 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I guess. I'm just not seeing Jon object enough for those other things to register with me. 

Fair point.