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Thank you shadow for hosting a wonderfully bonkers game.

I admire your staunch defence of the clues, even if I disagree with the defence of the 4th clue.

But for the record I don't think it is a bad clue. Just one bad word choice that blinded me to the answer, so it feels like a deliberate obfuscation. It should have just used "baby" (but these things happen).

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All objections have been preserved for the record, including why I do not agree with them :ninja: 

If someone has not yet cast a favorite vote, hurry! The fate of phantom rakia is being decided :ninja: 

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Posted (edited)
On 27 April 2018 at 10:27 AM, Dolorous Gabe said:

 

But for the record I don't think it is a bad clue. Just one bad word choice that blinded me to the answer, so it feels like a deliberate obfuscation. It should have just used "baby" (but these things happen).

I was waiting for the verdict but I can't be bothered. 

In my variety of English 'bub' 'bubs' 'bubby' and 'bubba' are all standard playful variations on baby. I did not realise this was specific to Australian and New Zealand and in fact I have my doubts about that. Its true here it is probably more standardised than other places it may exist. There are shops with names like Mum'n'Bub, a baby formula company called BUBS etc. But most such terms in Australian English derive from something in UK and Ireland and I would not be surprised if in some parts there, people are also saying bub in their quaint regional way.

The only explicit mention I can find of it as an Australianism (other than shop names) online is a tiny mention in this wikipedia article. I presume the only reason its there is because wikipedia is amateur and accessible and some Australian got on and put it there. Its a pretty shambolic article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubba

In the actual wiki definitions pages it doesn't get a mention.

I don't have online access to the Macquarie dictionary or the Oxford Dictionary of Australian English (well actually I probably could by walking to a public library) to check if they cover it but I would not be surprised if this type of word is not covered very well.

So having it as a basic part of my vocabulary, when Shadow said she googled bubba and it meant brother I was a bit peeved and answered that the southern variation of calling adult men Bubba was clearly derived from an original basic meaning of baby, something I had always assumed when encountering Bubba in that southern context.

And in any case encountering such a word in a sentence that is clearly written in female ways of talking to babies including cliched 'adorable' and 'diddems' should jolt a person's brain cells to infer that its a term for baby. Jez said she knew what it meant straight away.

After further thought I offered to change it to bubby or if necessary baby but by then Shadow was saying she had decided it was OK. 

 

Edited by Castellan

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Castellan said:

After further thought I offered to change it to bubby or if necessary baby but by then Shadow was saying she had decided it was OK. 

The trouble is, the simple fact that it could have used "baby" means that it seems like a pointless obfuscation. Like, had it read baby I would have got it. I considered the Oberyn story in question and dismissed it precisely because of the term. Even as Cersei's brother, it falls - IMO - on the basis that every reliable definition suggests affection for the recipient of the term. Plus it would seem messy to use an object's perspective within a subject's paraphrasing.

This is why it feels like a deliberate obfuscation. i'm not saying it was deliberate, only that any term used in this game should be using an easily searchable definition from a reliable source.

It makes it tougher to take given our brilliant host was so tough on us, requesting many alterations and versions to my clue. I think mine ended up extremely easy. But I know how hard it is to host and I wanted to be compliant to what was asked of me.

Edited by Dolorous Gabe

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So its a word game , enjoyment is partly expressive language, and you want me to stick to words incorrectly defined in US biased dictionaries?

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Posted (edited)

Anyone who has been a host knows I prefer intentional obfuscation as long as it's not inherently mean... and if you object to a clue as obfuscation, I'll usually submit a softball in response. The challenge merits itself and word games are meant to be a challenge, imo. Using baby might as well be a clue saying 'Tyrion. The answer is Tyrion.' <--- answer to the big headed subject.

That aside, I didn't figure out the clue but had no issue with it (bubba as baby) when I heard the answer. I don't know that I've heard babies called bubba before but it feels like a reasonable thing. Not sure why.

Edited by Ser Not Appearing

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6 hours ago, Castellan said:

Jez said she knew what it meant straight away.

I'm surprised that there is any controversy at all.  I call my kids Bubba all the time.  As soon as I saw "diddums", it was clear that it was Aussie slang and not the American redneck interpretation.  Personally, I had never heard "bubba" used as brother.

"Baby" just wouldn't have had the same ring, and then someone surely would have complained about diddums.

I thought it was a lovely clue. :) 

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2 hours ago, Jez Bell said:

I call my kids Bubba all the time.

Yes but you're related, so that works in the broad context of my understanding of it and the searchable definitions that it can be used as an affectionate term for a loved one.

 

My only real point is that if an intended meaning of a word in a clue is not reasonably searchable, it should not be used in such a way, especially given we have had many players over the years for whom English is not a first language so they rely on internet definitions.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

The trouble is, the simple fact that it could have used "baby" means that it seems like a pointless obfuscation. Like, had it read baby I would have got it. I considered the Oberyn story in question and dismissed it precisely because of the term. Even as Cersei's brother, it falls - IMO - on the basis that every reliable definition suggests affection for the recipient of the term. Plus it would seem messy to use an object's perspective within a subject's paraphrasing.

This is why it feels like a deliberate obfuscation. i'm not saying it was deliberate, only that any term used in this game should be using an easily searchable definition from a reliable source.

It makes it tougher to take given our brilliant host was so tough on us, requesting many alterations and versions to my clue. I think mine ended up extremely easy. But I know how hard it is to host and I wanted to be compliant to what was asked of me.

I tend to think obfuscation is part of it...this is not acrophobia, where everyone knows the subject. IMO using baby would have made it too easy with so few moments of note with babies present. My earlier post was not clear, I am from the rural southeastern US where we use the word bubba a lot! I might call a child whose name I do not know bubba. I might call a man acting like an ass bubba. I might call my older brother bubba, i might call my younger brother bubba. I might shorten it to bub, which I have found makes more sense to people not from the south, as in "hey bub, what's your problem!" To me "big-headed bubba" was more about big-headed than bubba.

I do see your problem trying to discover the author of the clues actual meaning, but I disagree that should stop someone from using words or slang that are really cultural or local to them. Don't you see what I mean, diddums? ;)

 

8 hours ago, Jez Bell said:

I'm surprised that there is any controversy at all.  I call my kids Bubba all the time.  As soon as I saw "diddums", it was clear that it was Aussie slang and not the American redneck interpretation.  Personally, I had never heard "bubba" used as brother.

"Baby" just wouldn't have had the same ring, and then someone surely would have complained about diddums.

I thought it was a lovely clue. :) 

:lmao:Yes! Someone - who must be obeyed :lmao:

5 hours ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Yes but you're related, so that works in the broad context of my understanding of it and the searchable definitions that it can be used as an affectionate term for a loved one.

 

My only real point is that if an intended meaning of a word in a clue is not reasonably searchable, it should not be used in such a way, especially given we have had many players over the years for whom English is not a first language so they rely on internet definitions.

I have struggled with this since I started playing this game - making a clue solvable without being a gimme. Often one word, especially slang, means something so different from one country to another (even one region to another), it can easily change the meaning of the sentence as I see it. However I think this game is about expanding our ideas about language to convey a message without giving away the message. Clues that are too straight forward spoil the fun, for me. Discovering what obscure meaning is really being represented is part of it.

 

Finally - I am the author of clue #1. I am probably not supposed to reveal that, but I don't think it matters right now.

With all due respect to everyone's comments, here is where my mind was when I wrote it -

Lyanna was honored, with the same honor, over multiple wives and that the repercussions of this honoring were unavoidable.

First thing - I wanted the word honor to be singular, not plural. More on this is a moment.

Second - I wanted wives to be plural to simply show that more than one husband had honored the subject. I did expect most players to assume the answer was a woman. The husbands were indeed Rhaegar, Robert and Eddard.

Third - The repercussions of such honoring were unavoidable. Our learned host tried to explain, as I had poorly explained it, that while the repercussions seemed wide and varied, each led to death, which was completely unavoidable once begun.

Now why did I insist that the word honor be singular. Because the honor they gave her was love! Each husband loved her more than his wife knowing they would have serious consequences of this. Rhaegar loved her more than Elia. This is proven by his actions and the consequence for him was his own death as well as Lyanna's (giving birth to their love-child) and thousands of others. I see Robert's rebellion as a direct consequence of Rhaegar's actions.

Robert loved her more than Cersei and repeatedly showed this by his actions. This is proven in the crypt visit, the drunken fantasy shout-out during sex, but also just the fact that she could not stand, he did not love her, and this led to his death. I think we can all agree if he had loved his wife vs the memory of Lyanna, she would have been more inclined to love him and less likely to plot his death, which I see as a direct consequence to Robert's own actions.

Eddard loved her more than his wife, particularly at that time, after all he was basically forced into marrying her and only came to love her later in life. His love for Lyanna drove him to make a promise that did in fact hurt his wife, but that wasn't the consequence I was thinking of. Remember the repercussions were death. If Eddard had told Catelyn the truth she would not have hated Jon, he would have been raised as a Stark and likely he would have not been sent to the Wall. If he had been someone other that the Bastard of Winterfell aka Lord Snow, he would not had ended the last book lying dead in the snow, betrayed by the Night's Watch. Each step along Jon's path to death was dictated by the first action, Ned loving Lyanna enough to keep her secret to the detriment of Jon's ability to live a normal life and avoid his doom.

 

I always try to research my own clues to see who, if any might fit other than my subject. I knew Ellaria would be the closest because of the scene at Purple Wedding, however the repercussions of this honoring did not materialize IMO, due to the actual events that transpired next. Once Joff was poisoned I don't think the seating arrangement was discussed again. I was depending on the idea that repercussions were more enduring.

:cheers: to us all for surviving!

 

 

Edited by She Who Must Be Obeyed
foolish mistakes

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THE END OF THE END

By doing something what was not done in hundreds and thousands of years, three pairs are sharing the first place with the same number of points :ninja:  Ser and Bran nearly caught up, with Bran's clue being one of the most favorite, together with Julia's.

There are only nine favorite votes, because redriver was eaten disappeared during the second round :ninja: 

As was in the rules signed by everybody with tears, those in the first place will owe those in the last place rakia, therefore there is a lot of rakia being owed :ninja: 

1. Given honor over wives - repercussions unavoidable. / Lyanna Stark -- SWMBO

2. Boy burying idyllic age, developing form./ Jon Snow -- Ser +1 (FB)

3. Backhand belittles infatuation: adolescent duelling fail./ Petyr Baelish -- Dolorous Gabe +1 (Ser)

4. ‘Big-headed bubba is adorable diddums’ – female. / Elia Martell -- Castellan

5. Bared breast in a daring fashion. / Daenerys -- redriver

6. Blatantly beggared incautiously accepting darling's flamboyance./ Jorah Mormont -- rocksniffer +1 (Bran)

7. Began boldly. Insulted ally. Dramatically fatal./ Robb Stark -- Fragile Bird

8. Boreal baron's icy attention damns forswearers. / Eddard Stark -- Raisin' Bran +3 (Julia H., Castellan, Dolorous Gabe)

9. Bored brat, ironed and divinely frocked./ Joffrey Baratheon -- Jez Bell 

10. “Girls happily offload wool, rehydrate undressed./ Robert Baratheon -- Julia H. +3 (SWMBO, rocksniffer, Jez Bell)

The results are:

Julia H. and redriver  21 + 8 + 3 = 32

 Castellan and Jez Bell 18 + 14 = 32

rocksniffer and Dolorous Gabe 15 + 15 + 2 = 32

Raisin Bran and Ser Not Appearing 13 + 14 + 4 = 31

 She Who Must Be Obeyed and Fragile Bird 14 + 15 = 29

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as i was reading all this chatter...no offense but mostly by people who usually get clues on one reading...i don't have that burden...i hardly ever figure a clue out on first reading...hell second third and fourth readings don't always help me...and i do research because my memory is so shot out (which means full of gaping holes caused by years of abuse) that i find it impossible to remember quotes and scenarios without delving into the books, the wiki, and a thesaurus...it has been proven to me that the point of this game is to work out answers and themes, one means very little without the other...

i am saying that all the clues could fit someone else, even 5 which is obviously dany could have been cersei when she did her walk. she thinks to herself i will stand tall and proud and not let them see i am beaten, or something like that, and it all hinged on my own idea of fashion...a dress or a way of being...the key is figuring out how each answer fits whatever theme is in your head...and for me that often screws up my ability to let an idea go that is wrong in favor of something outside what i think the theme should be...like everyone on this list being a teenager when a life altering event occurred. 

This is my fall down (meaning my fault, my short coming) not the result of anyone's use of slang or words i don't know...was i confused by 4 yeah...i thought it was shae talking about tyrion's member, but i figured and my partner concurred that i am the only one who might write a clue like that B) and it did not fit my ideas about theme of death...or did it...

 

:smoking:

 

 

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5 minutes ago, a free shadow said:

THE END OF THE END

<snip>

 She Who Must Be Obeyed and Fragile Bird 14 + 15 = 29

congrats on doing something i have been trying to do for years... hahahahaha  :cheers:

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1 hour ago, rocksniffer said:

congrats on doing something i have been trying to do for years... hahahahaha  :cheers:

having many, many people owe you rakia? :ninja: 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, She Who Must Be Obeyed said:

I tend to think obfuscation is part of it...

I think I failed to explain what I meant. There are different levels of obfuscation. It can be difficult to see where the line between acceptable and unacceptable obfuscation resides, particularly from the author and host's perspective from which they already know the answer. I think we sometimes go over that line searching for great clue authorship.

I would claim that authoring with an eye to obfuscation doesn't make for the best clue-making. Looking for a more confusing synonym doesn't improve a clue. The best clues come from a great idea that fits well in the letters of the given acronym.

I do strongly believe that the intended meaning of a word in the clue should be easily researchable.

 

3 hours ago, Raisin' Bran said:

Thanks to @Julia H., @Castellan, & @Dolorous Gabe for the votes for favorite clue. I thought it was pretty easy, but I will take what I can get.

It was a good clue, perhaps a tad easy but nearly all in this round were fairly easy IMO. I don't think the overall standard of clues in this round was great but I thought yours stood out alongside #10 and the voting reflects that.

 

Anyway, congratulations to all players on a fascinating game :cheers:

Thanks to my partner for being so brilliant, our long inebriated conversations into the dead of night (for me anyway) will be remembered always :cheers:

And thanks to shadow for hosting it for us, befuddling us to the point of near-madness :cheers:

Edited by Dolorous Gabe
Inebriation

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5 hours ago, rocksniffer said:

 

This is my fall down (meaning my fault, my short coming) not the result of anyone's use of slang or words i don't know...was i confused by 4 yeah...i thought it was shae talking about tyrion's member, but i figured and my partner concurred that i am the only one who might write a clue like that B) and it did not fit my ideas about theme of death...or did it...

:smoking:

 

Well you got that it was Tyrion so I think you were somehow tuned in .. his big head and he does want to die on a woman's breast ...  but I think Shae would have been strangled earlier if she called him a baby (they are small!) instead of a giant.

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Thanks for a fun game, @a free shadow!

and to my lovely partner... @Castellan, you're a bloody ripper, mate.

It was very hard to choose a fave clue this round.  I thought every single one was excellent! 

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2 hours ago, Jez Bell said:

and to my lovely partner... @Castellan, you're a bloody ripper, mate.

too bloody right!!!

and so are you

and shadow 

and everyone.

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On 2018. 04. 30. at 8:23 PM, Raisin' Bran said:

Thanks to @Julia H., @Castellan, & @Dolorous Gabe for the votes for favorite clue. I thought it was pretty easy, but I will take what I can get.

It was "icy attention" that won my vote for you. It is not only a clever reference to Ice, but also a great description of an important aspect of Ned's character. I also really liked the sound of "boreal baron". 

I'm sorry if I hurt any feelings with my opinion of the clues. It wasn't my intention. I love you all. 

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