Cutting tongues.

[Morgana Lannister]

32 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

oh, yeaaaah.... 'Balon was mad, Aeron is madder, but Euron is maddest....' I have to say in a detached literary way, Euron is my favourite 'villain' in the whole series.... as a reader who likes to get immersed in the world before me, he scares the pants off me

He just does the most evilly evil evildoer in spades, with a side-serving of extra-evil evil sauce. As of the end of ADwD he is the biggest wildcard in the pack (and the main reason I'm avoiding all TWoW sample chapters til it comes out....) I like your reference to the Winter/Summer courts, the Seely and Unseely. I think the Euron is a big bad Fomorian back for another bite ....

Thank you; I really look forward to his awesome downfall lol

[Morgana Lannister]

13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

!

In all fairness, we do know little about him.  However, what we know is that despite all that "perfect prince" thing that we keep hearing the guy seems a little entitled, looks down on people with a condition like dwarfish (the scene when he complains Tyrion is allowed to be on deck or something but not him), is a bad looser in a game which should be for pleasure (cyvasse) and then falls into a trap laid by the very dwarf he disrespects and beats him at cyvasse lol  Arianne is going to have this one for breakfast!

To me there is something with this kid a bit alike Joffrey and Harry the Heir...Hard to put my finger on what.  I am sure he will get the IT for a bit but I fear he has been mollycoddled by Jon Con (who I am sure loved Raeghar in more ways than one lol) and it will be tragic because I don't think he is bad, just massively irritating (in my humble opinion).

Now, his Hand, noble as he can be is the one guy together with Stannis I would sell my soul to Euron in exchange for not having to endure a night in an inn with lol (not meaning the bedchamber, sharing a drink with either should be enough lol) but hey, did I ever said I don't get on with non-gregarious folk?

lol sounded really mean.  I do have friends who are dear to me who are not overly gregarious or talkative but once you get to know them, barriers down and all and they are fantastic but Jon Con???  Not sure if my goldfish could cheer that one up!  I mean some characters are in an arc, say Arya and Tyrion, and you know they will bounce back but this one???

[The Sunland Lord]

29 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I think Kevan just helped out like any other Lannister; in fact cannot remember if he was in Kings Landing at the time or Casterley or fighting Robb or where to be honest.

Fighting Robb was like 18 years after the Sack, I'm sure you mean something else.

29 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I think the reason Kevan was killed was much as why Varys, who "saved Tyrion" in a way directed him to his father's chambers lol. Tywin and Kevan were both competent rulers and not good for his plans.  Pycelle may have been collateral damage, not sure... still he was very faithfull to the Lannisters and I guess Varys wants Cersei to make a fool of herself...

Competent rulers, and key figures of the Lannister regime. At least Tywin was. I am under the impression that Varys has a long memory and haven't forgot what Pycelle and Tywin (Kevan?) done years before. So I guess what he's done is useful for his present plans first of all, but Varys can also hold a grudge, as we know it. 

While maybe it doesn't change much overall, it helps to get to know Varys a bit better, since he is a mistery at least to me.

[Morgana Lannister]

19 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Fighting Robb was like 18 years after the Sack, I'm sure you mean something else.

Competent rulers, and key figures of the Lannister regime. At least Tywin was. I am under the impression that Varys has a long memory and haven't forgot what Pycelle and Tywin (Kevan?) done years before. So I guess what he's done is useful for his present plans first of all, but Varys can also hold a grudge, as we know it. 

While maybe it doesn't change much overall, it helps to get to know Varys a bit better, since he is a mistery at least to me.

lol indeed  was referring to the Blackwater where Tyrion threw out the wildfire lol

Now, then I was talking about the epilogue of ADWD.  Now what Kevan or Pycelle did years before possibly escapes me...

My apologies, you did say the Sack of KL, I took it to mean the threat to KL within the story.

[The Sunland Lord]

18 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

lol indeed  was referring to the Blackwater where Tyrion threw out the wildfire lol

Now, then I was talking about the epilogue of ADWD.  Now what Kevan or Pycelle did years before possibly escapes me...

My apologies, you did say the Sack of KL, I took it to mean the threat to KL within the story.

What Kevan did was my question-we don't have information on than one, or I don't remember that we do.

As for the other two, Pycelle persuaded Aerys to open the gates for the Lannister army against Varys' advice not to do so, and Tywin sacked the city and ordered the murders of the Targ kids.

Varys had a role in all of three above mentioned deaths. 

[Morgana Lannister]

8 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

What Kevan did was my question-we don't have information on than one, or I don't remember that we do.

As for the other two, Pycelle persuaded Aerys to open the gates for the Lannister army against Varys' advice not to do so, and Tywin sacked the city and ordered the murders of the Targ kids.

Varys had a role in all of their deaths. 

lol sure, a bit tired right now but thanks for the reminder.  I was certainly thinking of Kevan's role in KL after Tywin's demise.

So that is why Pycelle is seen so pro-Lannister?  Makes sense.

Varys, how if I may ask?  Not that it would shock me, just curious lol other than by advising not to open the gates to Tywin?

 

[The Sunland Lord]

2 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

lol sure, a bit tired right now but thanks for the reminder.  I was certainly thinking of Kevan's role in KL after Tywin's demise.

So that is why Pycelle is seen so pro-Lannister?  Makes sense.

Varys, how if I may ask?  Not that it would shock me, just curious lol

Well, personally killed Pycelle and Kevan, and his persuading (?) Tyrion not to climb those steps when he saved him from execution. 

I know that my post could lead to a confusion, that Varys had any role in the death of the Targaryen kids, which is not what I meant, so I already have it edited. 

[Morgana Lannister]

18 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Well, personally killed Pycelle and Kevan, and his persuading (?) Tyrion not to climb those steps when he saved him from execution. 

I know that my post could lead to a confusion, that Varys had any role in the death of the Targaryen kids, which is not what I meant, so I already have it edited. 

Well the Tyrion thing is also debatable but going for it lol:;) now very tired now but will be back tomorrow, lovely talking to you

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

In all fairness, we do know little about him.  However, what we know is that despite all that "perfect prince" thing that we keep hearing the guy seems a little entitled, looks down on people with a condition like dwarfish (the scene when he complains Tyrion is allowed to be on deck or something but not him), is a bad looser in a game which should be for pleasure (cyvasse) and then falls into a trap laid by the very dwarf he disrespects and beats him at cyvasse lol  Arianne is going to have this one for breakfast!

We may not everything of Young griff's life but we see through Tyrion's eyes Aegon's daily teachings. History, language, religion, war,math and science are cornerstones of young Aegon's education. 

Useful things to gear someone to bring competent at ruling a kingdom. 

But not a whiff of revolutionary rhetoric; not instruction of really bringing any real reforms to the basic structure of the goverment that presides in Westeroes.

I do however think he needs some slack for the times he was rude to Tyrion. 

Aegon V is a noble teen male after all. Most want to prove how great they know they are and think they're men(while still being boys). I believe you're talking about Tyrion being allowed to stay above deck to a battle or going out on the town. Which to a teen boy like Aegon seems so wrong; he could take care of himself more than a dwarf surely. To be clear Tyrion is prejudiced just as much as Young griff honestly. He does not see any sense in allowing women to have input of matters of war. Hes nearly as prejudiced as really any nobleman. He's always viewed himself as a nobleman who'd happened to suffer dwarfism not a dwarf who was lucky enough to be apart of the nobility. From what I recall he never really went out of his way to bully the half-man, hell hes mostly been pretty polite even friendly with the dwarf. His outburst at Tyrion for the Cynasse game comes from Tyrion slightly unraveling everything Aegon has believed near his entire life, and showing him to be a fool;Tyrion can come off as a prick and could be a jerk at times. Tyrion's plan may work. It may not. But I wager deep down he hoped Aegon would heed it and knew there was a real chance the boy would thus he's willing to stake Aegon and co's lives on it. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I am not near a copy of my books. Can you quote the passage where it was said that he was disinherited? 

Same. If you search the wiki for ASOIAF, http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Viserys_Targaryen however regarding the history of Viserys they make mention how Viserys was named his father's direct heir. Viserys was his father's favorite hence him and pregnant Queen Rhaella being shipped off to Dragonstone for safekeeping while Rheagar's children stayed in King's landing. If Varys was loyal to the crown first and foremost quite frankly Aegon by all reason should have if anything been destroyed by Varys or left to die. A son of Rheagar poses a very real and very big threat to young Viserys and his line. 

 

And seriously though we don't really know the validity Varys' claims of the plots  surrounding the king(I wager), Varys definitely made Aerys' position far less secure. Quite frankly, more people would be more suspetible to the idea of dethroning the lunatic who keeps burning people at random rather than wait for them to be next. 

[Lollygag]

Three things:

I completely disagree with those who say Varys doesn’t lie. A quick search of “Varys” in A Search of Ice and Fire brings up so many it’s not worth repeating here.  He can’t do what he does without intentionally misleading people which is what a lie is.

Dictionary.com defines a lie as:

1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
Synonyms: prevarication, falsification.
Antonyms: truth.

2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture:

His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.

3. an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood.

 

About Varys not really cutting the tongues out of the mouths of children - how can the following passage make sense otherwise? This isn’t a rhetorical question. I’m genuinely curious for an explanation. Much is made of the little birds listening, not reading. So why do so many and possibly all need to know their letters if the main way to gather info is listening, not reading? And what would the risk be here then?

AGOT Arya III

"You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer." They started down the hall in the direction Arya had come, past the room with the monsters.

"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds."

She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow.

"So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find … so young, to know their letters … perhaps older … not die so easy …"

"No. The younger are safer … treat them gently …"

"… if they kept their tongues …"

"… the risk …"

About using GRRM’s comment about Varys being misunderstood to give weight to the idea that he’s not as awful as he comes off, by the number of people who are trying to paint him as some sort of good or at least not that bad on this thread, I’d say GRRM calling Varys misunderstood more likely indicates that he is not a good sort. Varys paints himself as a good guy for the children and commonfolk only interested in the good of realm, trying to install a philosopher king with a humble upbringing, who himself was a former slave horribly victimized. So calling Varys misunderstood has to mean...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5_QQreskNI&feature=youtu.be&t=3m50s

Also, this interview was for a show premiere and the show is another beast.

 

[Kandrax]

8 hours ago, bent branch said:

Varys is the most misunderstood

Actually, that is Mel.

[Lollygag]

On 3/30/2018 at 5:21 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I genuinely disagree on this. If that's Littlefinger's intention, then the only amendment  I would suggest is doing what Lincoln and Robespierre did and declare his intentions to get the people behind him. That's just me though.

A modern middle class consisting of a majority of the population wouldn't be possible in Westeros. Didn't mean to make that impression. Should have clarified.

I think the effects for commoners would be too far down the road (decades?) to use as a selling point. At least not without a major backlash when the results are not only not immediate. Even if LF does end up doing something to benefit the commoners, I don't think he'd see it as in his interest to make them feel as though they deserve rights or much of anything else. I think LF is trying to turn Westeros slowly and gradually. He's young and has time for a longer game.

But LF's roots in Braavos do make me wonder sometimes. LF and Braavos' history don't seem to go together well.

 

 

On 3/30/2018 at 5:56 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? 

 

On 3/30/2018 at 5:21 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Correct. But the key thing about Rhaegar is that we have no idea what was going on with him. Basing theories on him is therefore like building on quicksand. 

Quicksand is a good word for where the wondering on this goes. I've been chewing on this a few days. Very shiny ideas...

[Lost Melnibonean]

12 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I am not near a copy of my books. Can you quote the passage where it was said that he was disinherited? 

It's in TWOIAF. In the immediate wake of the Battle at the Ruby Ford, the author refers to Viserys as Aerys's new heir. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Same. If you search the wiki for ASOIAF, http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Viserys_Targaryen however regarding the history of Viserys they make mention how Viserys was named his father's direct heir. Viserys was his father's favorite hence him and pregnant Queen Rhaella being shipped off to Dragonstone for safekeeping while Rheagar's children stayed in King's landing. If Varys was loyal to the crown first and foremost quite frankly Aegon by all reason should have if anything been destroyed by Varys or left to die. A son of Rheagar poses a very real and very big threat to young Viserys and his line. 

Varys was in KL, saving Aegon would have been easier than saving Viserys. 
The King sent his son and wife to dragonstone for protection, and he kept Rhaegar's kids and his wife in KL as hostages to guarantee support and spears from Dorne. It wasn't about favorites. It was about realpolitik.  
So, Varys being loyal to Aerys, and saving his heir would still be correct. Now, even if (f)Aegon is the real deal, being in hiding for over a decade and a half would not give him much of a claim against his uncle. 

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And seriously though we don't really know the validity Varys' claims of the plots  surrounding the king(I wager), Varys definitely made Aerys' position far less secure. Quite frankly, more people would be more suspetible to the idea of dethroning the lunatic who keeps burning people at random rather than wait for them to be next. 

We have two prime and major examples. 
1: The harrenhal tourney. Rhaegar was plotting to remove his dad. That is why the king showed up. 
2: Tywin's arrival. Varys was the only advisor that gave Aerys good counsel on this. 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It's in TWOIAF. In the immediate wake of the Battle at the Ruby Ford, the author refers to Viserys as Aerys's new heir. 

Ah, I see. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Varys was in KL, saving Aegon would have been easier than saving Viserys. 
The King sent his son and wife to dragonstone for protection, and he kept Rhaegar's kids and his wife in KL as hostages to guarantee support and spears from Dorne. It wasn't about favorites. It was about realpolitik.  
So, Varys being loyal to Aerys, and saving his heir would still be correct. Now, even if (f)Aegon is the real deal, being in hiding for over a decade and a half would not give him much of a claim against his brother unc

Saving Aegon is not in the interest of the crown. Aerys cares only for Viserys his beloved boy, not the half-Dornish get of his traitor son. Rheallia and Ellia alone could suffice as hostages. If had any notion Aegon succeeding him he would have sent him along with Rheays and Viserys for safekeeping. He didn't however because Aegon wasn't Aerys' heir. Aegon if anything is a direct threat to Viserys Aerys's actual heir and his line. 

 

[Morgana Lannister]

16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

We may not everything of Young griff's life but we see through Tyrion's eyes Aegon's daily teachings. History, language, religion, war,math and science are cornerstones of young Aegon's education. 

Useful things to gear someone to bring competent at ruling a kingdom. 

But not a whiff of revolutionary rhetoric; not instruction of really bringing any real reforms to the basic structure of the goverment that presides in Westeroes.

I do however think he needs some slack for the times he was rude to Tyrion. 

Aegon V is a noble teen male after all. Most want to prove how great they know they are and think they're men(while still being boys). I believe you're talking about Tyrion being allowed to stay above deck to a battle or going out on the town. Which to a teen boy like Aegon seems so wrong; he could take care of himself more than a dwarf surely. To be clear Tyrion is prejudiced just as much as Young griff honestly. He does not see any sense in allowing women to have input of matters of war. Hes nearly as prejudiced as really any nobleman. He's always viewed himself as a nobleman who'd happened to suffer dwarfism not a dwarf who was lucky enough to be apart of the nobility. From what I recall he never really went out of his way to bully the half-man, hell hes mostly been pretty polite even friendly with the dwarf. His outburst at Tyrion for the Cynasse game comes from Tyrion slightly unraveling everything Aegon has believed near his entire life, and showing him to be a fool;Tyrion can come off as a prick and could be a jerk at times. Tyrion's plan may work. It may not. But I wager deep down he hoped Aegon would heed it and knew there was a real chance the boy would thus he's willing to stake Aegon and co's lives on it. 

 

Yes, they both have short-falls and I guess I would not be as prejudiced against Aegon if people in the books weren't droning at infinitum how "perfect" he is.  Yes, he has a good education and he is not Joffrey lol.  Yes, I was referring to that scene and probably being mean and I do admit this "perfect prince" idea turned me against the character probably unfairly and yes he is young and, like most of us did, he resent adults having more freedom or privileges or whatever.  As for Tyrion and is motivations I think it is complex but I have this (possibly "tin foil") that Varys is using him as a "product tester" with Aegon to see whether or not he believes him genuine.  But I think in turn Tyrion wants to know more himself before he fully commits himself to him or Dany and my wager is on Dany all the way.

Now, lol, this series is so vast that I forget stuff, my apologies but I cannot recall the moment when Tyrion stated that women should not opine in matters of war. If you quote it I am sure you are right and he did.  If Cersei was the woman in question, however, I would argue that he use this sexism as an excuse.  Cersei clearly could not be trusted with the wildfire, for instance.   All in all he was happy with Chella of the Black Ears or something and I cannot think of who else he might have attacked in that regard but hey, yes, he is a product of his society like many others and I would accept it.  Just cannot remember when he did this.

Now, Stannis, for instance, sounds to me as someone likely to make that comment and yet again was completely dominated by a woman lol  It is a slight source of amusement to me how many men who consider themselves patriarcal in that sort of world (or even in our own) are under the thumb of a woman lol

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Saving Aegon is not in the interest of the crown. Aerys cares only for Viserys his beloved boy, not the half-Dornish get of his traitor son. Rheallia and Ellia alone could suffice as hostages. If had any notion Aegon succeeding him he would have sent him along with Rheays and Viserys for safekeeping. He didn't however because Aegon wasn't Aerys' heir. Aegon if anything is a direct threat to Viserys Aerys's actual heir and his line. 

It wasn't about what Aerys cared for. It was about continuing his line. For the realm

[Rufus Snow]

On 4/2/2018 at 8:22 AM, Lollygag said:

About Varys not really cutting the tongues out of the mouths of children - how can the following passage make sense otherwise? This isn’t a rhetorical question. I’m genuinely curious for an explanation. Much is made of the little birds listening, not reading. So why do so many and possibly all need to know their letters if the main way to gather info is listening, not reading? And what would the risk be here then?

 

AGOT Arya III

 

"You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer." They started down the hall in the direction Arya had come, past the room with the monsters.

 

"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds."

She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow.

 

"So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find … so young, to know their letters … perhaps older … not die so easy …"

 

"No. The younger are safer … treat them gently …"

 

"… if they kept their tongues …"

 

"… the risk …"

Well, you asked the non-rhetorical question, so I'll give it a go I absolutely agree that this is highly suggestive of the idea they have their tongues cut out, but it is in no way conclusive. I'm not taking a position on either side, yet, because those important two last lines includes four - count them - four ellipses. Each one indicates missing words, and all we have to fill those missing words is our imagination. It's as easy to imagine a sentence including those phrases which give very different a reading, for instance 'if they kept ther tongues still', 'if they kept their tongues idle', [if they kept their tongues only for us'... And by 'tongues' they may also mean languages, perhaps in addition to learning the Common Tongue.

The point is, this is not a clear picture - it's very much a Rorschach image. Very suggestive, but with enough room to let us see what we want to see. It's not as though the George never uses this device elsewhere, to lead us down a path, then disabuse us later in the story. And he does particularly use an ellipsis where one character is interrupted by another, who completes the sentence incorrectly. Unfortunately the search will not look for ellipses, so the only example I can scrape off the top of my head is this one:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX

"Say it!"

He cringed. "Moon tea," he whispered. "Moon tea, for . . ."

"I know what moon tea is for." There it is. "Very well. Get off those saggy knees and try to remember what it was to be a man." Pycelle struggled to rise, but took so long about it that she had to tell Osmund Kettleblack to give him another yank. "As to Lord Gyles, no doubt our Father Above will judge him justly. He left no children?"

Cersei flies off the handle and assumes Pycelle is about to give a gynecological lecture, but that ellipsis is much more likely to conceal a name, and Cersei has misinterpreted, and heard what she wanted to. There are other examples, I can't recall them now, but it happens often enough that I take note when the George uses an ellipsis. It indicates missing words which are usually significant.

And of course, we do know that not all those who do not speak lack tongues:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

"The silent sisters never speak," said Podrick. "I heard they don't have any tongues."

Septon Meribald smiled. "Mothers have been cowing their daughters with that tale since I was your age. There was no truth to it then and there is none now. A vow of silence is an act of contrition, a sacrifice by which we prove our devotion to the Seven Above. For a mute to take a vow of silence would be akin to a legless man giving up the dance."

When it comes to the Little Birds, I will not be 100% on either side until and unless one of them speaks, or someone looks one in the mouth and exclaims 'The bastard spider has cut her tongue out!'