Jump to content
Kandrax

Cutting tongues.

Recommended Posts

21 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

If Varys is truly intent on a Targ Restoration, his active hand in undoing the Targ regime is odd to say the least. Instead of guiding Aerys to allow Rhaegar a stronger and more stable hand, he seemed to work against this. Folks seem to think Rhaegar would have made a pretty decent king. Either Varys motive is not a Targ Restroration, or it is but it’s a lot more complex than that.    

 

 

 

ASOS Jaime V

 

He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

We don't know enough about Varys's role in the reign of Aerys to talk firmly about whether it indicates something about his character.

Plenty of people seem to think he played a rotten role, but Varys has a bad rep and is secretive to a fault about what he's actually up to. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Bingo. His goal is the targ restoration.

Red or black, a dragon is still a dragon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

We don't know enough about Varys's role in the reign of Aerys to talk firmly about whether it indicates something about his character.

Plenty of people seem to think he played a rotten role, but Varys has a bad rep and is secretive to a fault about what he's actually up to. 

I agree with your first sentence. But when I see 2+2=5, I'm going to call it out as something is definitely missing here. This isn't the only contradiction where Varys is concerned so I'm not hand-waving it. Maybe there's an explanation which makes it all work out, but I really can't conceive of any.

Based on the hypocrisy about caring for realm juxtaposed with his hand in starting wars and his claims of caring for children, then sending Illyrio to send Drago on slave raids so he can ruin more kids and lives in general, the bad rep is warranted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Red or black, a dragon is still a dragon. 

Why not just back Rhaegar who was right there and was by all accounts completely acceptable and save all the trouble (and gruesome deaths and general misery)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Based on the hypocrisy about caring for realm juxtaposed with his hand in starting wars and his claims of caring for children, then sending Illyrio to send Drago on slave raids so he can ruin more kids and lives in general, the bad rep is warranted.

It's only hypocrisy if you think his ends aren't justified, is my overall point. Which is hard to argue since we don't know what his ends are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Why not just back Rhaegar who was right there and was by all accounts completely acceptable and save all the trouble (and gruesome deaths and general misery)?

Who knows what Rhaegar was up to, or what kind of man he really was?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

It's only hypocrisy if you think his ends aren't justified, is my overall point. Which is hard to argue since we don't know what his ends are.

This depends on one's personal stance on the ends justifying the means. I'm really not a fan of it myself. Excusing or reserving judgement on horrendous behavior because it might be good somehow is a dangerous slippery slope. If I apply this approach to real life history and the current headlines, gotta admit, it really scares me.

I suspect that what LF is doing may have some benefit to the common people in that he is raising a middle class in Westeros though for completely selfish reasons. The ends wouldn't justify the means for him either.

16 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Who knows what Rhaegar was up to, or what kind of man he really was?

Rhaegar not being what we've been lead to believe or Varys knowing some secret about Rhaegar or maybe his obsession about the prophesy might be an explanation for why Varys might have felt a reboot was required.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Excusing or reserving judgement on horrendous behavior because it might be good somehow is a dangerous slippery slope. If I apply this approach to real life history and the current headlines, gotta admit, it really scares me.

I agree with that. Often people will justify all manner of horrendous, concrete means, ht for nebulous ends. I think Varys might fit that category. 

14 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I suspect that what LF is doing may have some benefit to the common people in that he is raising a middle class in Westeros though for completely selfish reasons. The ends wouldn't justify the means for him either.

I genuinely disagree on this. If that's Littlefinger's intention, then the only amendment  I would suggest is doing what Lincoln and Robespierre did and declare his intentions to get the people behind him. That's just me though.

18 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Rhaegar not being what we've been lead to believe or Varys knowing some secret about Rhaegar or maybe his obsession about the prophesy might be an explanation for why Varys might have felt a reboot was required.

Correct. But the key thing about Rhaegar is that we have no idea what was going on with him. Basing theories on him is therefore like building on quicksand. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Why not just back Rhaegar who was right there and was by all accounts completely acceptable and save all the trouble (and gruesome deaths and general misery)?

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

It's only hypocrisy if you think his ends aren't justified, is my overall point. Which is hard to argue since we don't know what his ends are.

His end is to put Aegon on the throne. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

His end is to put Aegon on the throne. 

Or maybe to unite black and red dragons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Or maybe to unite black and red dragons.

Do you agree that Illyrio and Varys are working together toward the same end? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Red or black, a dragon is still a dragon. 

I have never been on the bastardfyre train. He seemed very loyal to Aerys. He was never a lickspittle and spoke plainly about plots against the crown. Hios advice to bar the gates to Tywin was spot on. So was naming a plot by Rhaegar to displace him.  After Aerys was killed, it would seem he instantly went to developing a plan to get his Heir on the throne. I could be wrong of course, but I also have the feeling that George will never say one way or another about (f)Aegon  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Do you agree that Illyrio and Varys are working together toward the same end? 

Maybe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I have never been on the bastardfyre train. He seemed very loyal to Aerys. He was never a lickspittle and spoke plainly about plots against the crown. Hios advice to bar the gates to Tywin was spot on. So was naming a plot by Rhaegar to displace him.  After Aerys was killed, it would seem he instantly went to developing a plan to get his Heir on the throne. I could be wrong of course, but I also have the feeling that George will never say one way or another about (f)Aegon  

Varys is Aerys's bastard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

His end is to put Aegon on the throne. 

I think so, and from what we know from what he said he has a utopian idea of a good king. It's there I depart from him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I have never been on the bastardfyre train. He seemed very loyal to Aerys. He was never a lickspittle and spoke plainly about plots against the crown. Hios advice to bar the gates to Tywin was spot on. So was naming a plot by Rhaegar to displace him.  After Aerys was killed, it would seem he instantly went to developing a plan to get his Heir on the throne. I could be wrong of course, but I also have the feeling that George will never say one way or another about (f)Aegon  

I suspect that Daenerys's three treasons will be wrapped up in the Blackfyre plot, which will form the central issue of the second main conflict of ASOIAF. And thus, we will learn the truth of The Blackfyre. But, like you, I recognize that my ideas could be wrong. 

He was very loyal to Aerys. And Aerys was quite possibly the worst king in Westerosi history. Then Aerys was replaced by a drunken sot, who had the good sense to appoint one of the best hands of the king in Westerosi history, and Varys seeks to undermine him. Is that consistent with the speech he gave to Kevan in the Epilogue to Dance? 

I think the hints from the author about Varys poisoning Aerys's already unstable mind are telling. I think he was sent to destabilize Aerys's reign and to prevent the more competent Rhaegar from becoming king. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Maybe.

I think Varys is Illyrio's agent, and Illyrio wed Daenerys to Drogo to gain an army, so I don't believe uniting the red and black dragons through marriage was Varys's goal. Illyrio was not backing Viserys--he was backing Aegon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Varys is Aerys's bastard.

Can you please develop that thesis? 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think so, and from what we know from what he said he has a utopian idea of a good king. It's there I depart from him. 

As I suggested three posts up, I don't  believe that Varys is is pursuing utopia. I think he agreed with Illyrio on how best to train Aegon for kingship. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×