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Will Jon come back to life?

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First time posting on this site. I don't like to speculate on what will happen in the future books, because only Martin knows, but if he does, I don't see it being anything like how it happened in the show. Not that that was bad, but reading the books, I get the feeling that anyone brought back to life by the Lord of Light is a shadow of their former self and on borrowed time. Catelyn, Dondorian.

I don't want to see Jon be like that. I think his connection with ghost will come into play. This is a shot in the dark, but I could see a Lady Stoneheart last kiss being how it goes down, and not until much later than when he came back in the show.

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I think Jon wont come back to life 'couse he wont die. He has the Old Gods and the Lord of the Light to look after him. He counts with Bloodhaven who saved Bran when the boy was in coma  (I reckon Bran needed a magic aid to survive) and Melisandre who can do with Jon what Moqorro did do with victarion. 

 

And if Jon dies and comes back to life, may be he lose his pov as happened with Catelyn. Without Jon, who will show what will happen on the wall will be Melisandre and ver visions in flames - a lotação of spoilers in each chapter. Bran will show us the news, too. He with his greensees and his know-how about the past. 

 

That way,  Martin will give us all history. Jon knowsknows nothing is more interesting to Martin. 

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To come back to life, he would first have to die. In my view he's not dead or injured in a way that would bring on a coma.

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On 4/13/2018 at 11:29 PM, Garota Sem Rosto said:

And if Jon dies and comes back to life, may be he lose his pov as happened with Catelyn. Without Jon, who will show what will happen on the wall will be Melisandre and ver visions in flames - a lotação of spoilers in each chapter. Bran will show us the news, too. He with his greensees and his know-how about the past. 

I agree. Given how long she's been in the story, and she's just now emerging as a POV in an area that's had two for a long time, one's left and the other.... well it's telling.

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On 10/04/2018 at 1:37 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Who says he is dead? 

Exactly. 

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Posted (edited)

Reread the prologue from Dance => massive foreshadowing that Jon is now a ghost, IN Ghost ( might be an awesome POV ;) )

Edited by Lemorecake

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Posted (edited)

I lean towards Jon being dead.  Primarily because of Bran's vision of Jon lying on his cold bed and the vision of the heart of winter that follows in the famous coma dream.  Specifically the language Martin uses:

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

The memory of warmth or lack of warmth is used to describe someone who is dead:

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

Tears ran from his blind white eyes at that admission. "Death should hold no fear for a man as old as me, but it does. Isn't that silly? It is always dark where I am, so why should I fear the darkness? Yet I cannot help but wonder what will follow, when the last warmth leaves my body. Will I feast forever in the Father's golden hall as the septons say? Will I talk with Egg again, find Dareon whole and happy, hear my sisters singing to their children? What if the horselords have the truth of it? Will I ride through the night sky forever on a stallion made of flame? Or must I return again to this vale of sorrow? Who can say, truly? Who has been beyond the wall of death to see? Only the wights, and we know what they are like. We know."

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread.

In the first passage, Jon's body is growing pale and hard while the memory of warmth has fled from him. That sounds like the body freezing and the warm blood leaving his body in a rush.  This is followed (in Bran's dream) by the threat at the heart of winter.  While Jon's stabbing is followed immediately by the arrival of the 'cold'.  A warning that is expressed by Borroq, one of the last to cross over the Wall.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

"You'd best go on. We are about to close the gate."

"You do that," Borroq said. "You close it good and tight. They're coming, crow." He smiled as ugly a smile as Jon had ever seen and made his way to the gate. The boar stalked after him. The falling snow covered up their tracks behind them.

Who 'they' are remains to be seen, but I'm guessing they come with the cold. 

This is a critical moment in the story; so I'm guessing that Bran is being shown this moment and the threat that follows, because this will be part of Bran's raison d'etre.    The vision of Jon and the HoW are foreshadowing future events that takes place at the end of DwD.

(Where is the quote option now? I'm not seeing it on the menu bar along with spoiler tags.)

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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On 5/9/2018 at 2:38 AM, Lemorecake said:

Reread the prologue from Dance => massive foreshadowing that Jon is now a ghost, IN Ghost ( might be an awesome POV ;) )

This.  I haven't read the book in quite a while, but I recall it being pretty clear that he warged into Ghost before dying.  Similar to the Wildling (I don't remember which one) who warged into his bird in the prologue and watched his human self being killed.

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On 3/27/2018 at 6:52 PM, manchester_babe said:

Will Jon come back to life?

I wonder if he will actually die. Last we saw him his body was going into shock but there are people at the Wall who might intercede on his behalf to keep his body alive.

Either way, characters like Beric and Lady Stoneheart show that resurrection powers do exist and the Ironborn essentially resurrect with medieval CPR.

So, either way, I think Jon will be back after spending a few chapters or so in Ghost. This will hopefully negate too much permanent damage though it might result in Jon becoming more Wolf-like and assertive as a result. Also, I suspect knowing that some of his men would murder him like that will alter his outlook... a lot.

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Lots of reasons for Jon to only be in a coma:

· Getting out of the NW by not a true, permanent death is slimy and in violation of the intent of the oath. If temporarily dying counted for anything, anyone could convert to the Drowned God and get baptized. GRRM doesn’t typically make it so easy on his characters.

· Lots of examples of people getting critically stabbed and living.

· We saw Bran from Jon’s POV, not from his parents’ POV which would be more expected. Catelyn tells Jon “it should have been you”. A Lannister Lannister plot tried to kill Bran Jon and daggers were involved.

· Tyrion observed that Summer was keeping Bran alive. In ADWD, Jon and Ghost had become so close that Jon was at times unsure whether his senses and feelings were really his. Bran had just bonded with Summer, but by this time, Jon’s been bonded to Ghost for years.

· The Varamyr prologue hints at Jon becoming a more practiced warg. Continuing with the Bran parallel, this might happen while in a coma.

· It’s extremely cold which would limit bleed out. Jon was also wearing a lot of thick clothing (leather, fur, etc) and he was stabbed with daggers by the likes of Bowen Marsh and Wyck Whittlestick, hardly warriors. The thick clothing also would not only affect depth of the blades, but compromise ability to identify the critical targets.

· Poisoning explains why he suddenly couldn’t grip his sword. Wyck Whittlestick is mentioned as skinny 3 times (important!). Jon gets nicked in the neck (no biggie), does a fancy maneuver on Wyck’s skinny, skinny wrist no problem, hand working perfectly fine. Literally a few seconds later, Jon is losing time and unable to grasp his sword which wouldn’t be much different in thickness to a very skinny wrist. Looking to Bran again, poisoning Jon with sweetsleep with the first knife nick makes him an easier target for a couple of stewards. Bran is the only POV we see under sweetsleep and we find out that while inhibiting dreams, it seems to enhance warging. Adrenalin is great in a fight, but if severely injured, will cause you to bleed out faster. If under sweetsleep, the heartrate and blood pressure (if elevated) drop significantly which would mean greatly reduced blood loss, especially when adding in cold.

· If Jon is some sort of weird zombie, it makes his legitimation, RLJ, KitN, Stannis’ offer of Lord of Winterfell, all of that, dead ends. It makes the significance of Jon learning these things not matter as he'd no longer be a true dynamic person.

· Beric was raised as  a proxy for Ned being a Ned-like person, on Ned’s mission, leading Ned’s men, compelled to raise Ned’s wife against all reason. Catelyn was raised. Jon would make 3/4 dead Starks resurrected. Blah.

Ned's, Robb's, and Catelyn's deaths were out of the blue, but nonetheless, they've all felt very organic to the story. I don't get the same feel for Jon here.

 

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20 hours ago, LynnS said:

I lean towards Jon being dead.  Primarily because of Bran's vision of Jon lying on his cold bed and the vision of the heart of winter that follows in the famous coma dream.  Specifically the language Martin uses:

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

The memory of warmth or lack of warmth is used to describe someone who is dead:

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

Tears ran from his blind white eyes at that admission. "Death should hold no fear for a man as old as me, but it does. Isn't that silly? It is always dark where I am, so why should I fear the darkness? Yet I cannot help but wonder what will follow, when the last warmth leaves my body. Will I feast forever in the Father's golden hall as the septons say? Will I talk with Egg again, find Dareon whole and happy, hear my sisters singing to their children? What if the horselords have the truth of it? Will I ride through the night sky forever on a stallion made of flame? Or must I return again to this vale of sorrow? Who can say, truly? Who has been beyond the wall of death to see? Only the wights, and we know what they are like. We know."

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread.

In the first passage, Jon's body is growing pale and hard while the memory of warmth has fled from him. That sounds like the body freezing and the warm blood leaving his body in a rush.  This is followed (in Bran's dream) by the threat at the heart of winter.  While Jon's stabbing is followed immediately by the arrival of the 'cold'.  A warning that is expressed by Borroq, one of the last to cross over the Wall.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

"You'd best go on. We are about to close the gate."

"You do that," Borroq said. "You close it good and tight. They're coming, crow." He smiled as ugly a smile as Jon had ever seen and made his way to the gate. The boar stalked after him. The falling snow covered up their tracks behind them.

Who 'they' are remains to be seen, but I'm guessing they come with the cold. 

This is a critical moment in the story; so I'm guessing that Bran is being shown this moment and the threat that follows, because this will be part of Bran's raison d'etre.    The vision of Jon and the HoW are foreshadowing future events that takes place at the end of DwD.

(Where is the quote option now? I'm not seeing it on the menu bar along with spoiler tags.)

 

 

There's something about Starks and cold, so I'm just not sure how to interpret these passages.

Ned didn't tolerate cold well and we were told repeatedly about how Ned was not liking the heat in KL. This was about showing Ned as a sort of fish out of water here to the reader, but it seems like there was more to it than that as it was so heavy-handed. I'll have to do a reread about Robb, but I recall Catelyn noticing things about Robb, too. Sansa has some weird thing with the cold lately in the later books which seems more than just homesickness. Like Ned, it's too heavy-handed for me for just that interpretation. Bran's tears burning on his cheeks sounds like his skin freezing, but I'm struck that rather than instead of just saying that his skin is freezing (we actually aren't told about the cold at all), it sounds instead like Bran's own heat is burning himself.

When Jon arrived at the Wall, he complained about the cold a lot and then rather suddenly that changed. It would make sense to have Jon stand next to fires a lot being where he is, but he often gravitates to windows which is the coldest place in the room and then often, especially when agitated, he goes outside into the cold for a walk - almost as if the cold is now comforting to him. Next time I read Jon, I'm going to try to pinpoint when his views on cold changed.

Pretty confused about what's going on here. Regardless, Jon's change towards cold doesn't really sound like Bran's description (though I can see various interpretations of that).

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37 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

There's something about Starks and cold, so I'm just not sure how to interpret these passages.

Ned didn't tolerate cold well and we were told repeatedly about how Ned was not liking the heat in KL. This was about showing Ned as a sort of fish out of water here to the reader, but it seems like there was more to it than that as it was so heavy-handed. I'll have to do a reread about Robb, but I recall Catelyn noticing things about Robb, too. Sansa has some weird thing with the cold lately in the later books which seems more than just homesickness. Like Ned, it's too heavy-handed for me for just that interpretation. Bran's tears burning on his cheeks sounds like his skin freezing, but I'm struck that rather than instead of just saying that his skin is freezing (we actually aren't told about the cold at all), it sounds instead like Bran's own heat is burning himself.

When Jon arrived at the Wall, he complained about the cold a lot and then rather suddenly that changed. It would make sense to have Jon stand next to fires a lot being where he is, but he often gravitates to windows which is the coldest place in the room and then often, especially when agitated, he goes outside into the cold for a walk - almost as if the cold is now comforting to him. Next time I read Jon, I'm going to try to pinpoint when his views on cold changed.

Pretty confused about what's going on here. Regardless, Jon's change towards cold doesn't really sound like Bran's description (though I can see various interpretations of that).

Bran knows what it means when he says the warmth fled his body since he uses the same description for the dead in the crypts - this is where they take your body when the warmth has left.   

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Odds are extremely high that either Jon isn't dead, or he'll be resurrected.

A Barnes and Noble interview about ten years ago had GRRM stating, when asked directly by a fan, that Jon will eventually find out his true parentage. 

Well, he obviously hasn't yet.  So.  

This interview was scrubbed from the B&N site because, of course, it's a huge spoiler that Jon isn't permanently dead. But there are references to it online (several on Reddit).

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25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Bran knows what it means when he says the warmth fled his body since he uses the same description for the dead in the crypts - this is where they take your body when the warmth has left.   

I don't disagree.

But there's something more complex going on and I think those need to factor in here. I don't think it can be disregarded that Jon has already undergone some degree of change already as he used to complain bitterly about the cold, but has for some time now been drawn to it. I suspect it has something to do with Othor and maybe him shoving his hand down Jon's throat which was...odd, but I'll have to double check that.

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Not to overly stress the point; Martin underscores the meaning when he gives those words to Aemon as well.  Aemon is speaking on the context of what happens to the soul after death. 

The situation with Othor has puzzled me for a long time.  The business of placing his hand in Jon's mouth reminded me of Arya's confrontation with Jaqen:

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"Swear it," Arya said. "Swear it by the gods."

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."

 

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9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Not to overly stress the point; Martin underscores the meaning when he gives those words to Aemon as well.  Aemon is speaking on the context of what happens to the soul after death. 

The situation with Othor has puzzled me for a long time.  The business of placing his hand in Jon's mouth reminded me of Arya's confrontation with Jaqen:

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"Swear it," Arya said. "Swear it by the gods."

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."

 

I get the feeling we're just going to disagree but here goes:

Bran is seeing what is happening in the present. A vision jumping around between present and future doesn't make sense to me. Below, we see what Jon was thinking at roughly the same time.

AGOT Bran III

He looked east, and saw a galley racing across the waters of the Bite. He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife on a table in front of her, as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving. A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it.

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

 

AGOT Jon III

The weariness came on him suddenly, as he donned the roughspun blacks that were their everyday wear. He sat on a bench, his fingers fumbling with the fastenings on his cloak. So cold, he thought, remembering the warm halls of Winterfell, where the hot waters ran through the walls like blood through a man's body. There was scant warmth to be found in Castle Black; the walls were cold here, and the people colder.

 

I don't see "memory of all warmth fled him" as necessarily being warmth leaving the body. Being in a cold bed doesn't necessarily mean dead nor does skin growing hard and pale.

ASOS Sansa V

My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel.

 

On Othor, I've noticed that there's an open mouth thing with the wights, undying and the stonemen. Jon notes the gash in the throat was like an open mouth. Open mouths and breathlessness figure prominently in HOTU and "Hatred does not stir the stone men half so much as hunger". 

Jon (wights), Dany (undying) and Tyrion (stonemen/Rhoyne/Garin's curse) all were nearly killed by open-mouthed cold things which went down their throat and took their air. All were saved by fire in some way: Jon by the lamp, Dany by her dragons, and Tyrion by the red-haired JonCon whose sigil is the griffin, often associated with dragons.

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