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Juggling Truth, Death, and Madness: Examining the Fools of Westeros


hiemal

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4 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Olyvar, Perwyn and Alessander, among adults.

 

In seriousness, I think that with that many Freys a few are like to turn up decent- I think their odds increase inversely with their proximity to the Twins and to Walder.

4 hours ago, Kandrax said:

I wonder, how would people react, if someone says similar thing in real life?

With justifiable horror. But Wyman is not nice people, either. If attempted unchecked ambition and hegemony through breeding (Ah, Gatehouse Ami,,,,) is are Frey maladies then I think that cannibalism appetite may be the Manderlys. Depending on whether or not the Freys actually left the New Castle before he killed them he may be guilty of violating Guest Right as well. I wish we knew more about the Manderly's fool. It doesn't seem to be a Northern thing, but they do have Southron roots.

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4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Not so much the esotheric meaning as the depictions are interesting.

http://tarotwheel.net/history/the individual trump cards/il matto - the fool.html

Initially in history the Fool is depicted as simple minded, a buffoon, half naked, bigger head, ass ears with bells, being laughed at and picked on by others but barely understanding or knowing what's going on. He's a madman, a village fool, mentally impaired. Several character fools can be classified with those.

But then you have the court jester, which is the opposite of the above. Court jesters are not mad or simple, they are very witty and smart, making fun of others and particularly chosen to do exactly that for their lord: make fun of their guests. These can also be wandering musicians. Several character fools can be classified in this section.

Then by the 19th century we get the Rider Waite fool: handsome young man with floral tunique and holding a flower delicately about to step off a cliff in the mountains, because he has his eyes on the sky. He's handsome, romantic, wandering innocent, but able minded. There's your Florian archetype.

Excellent! The evolution of Foolery. I love it.

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Waite's archenemy Crowley designs a completely different fool: a sort of physical grotesque, mix child mix adult, but not like the older ones. He's a giant who takes the space of corner of the cards. He has horns like a demon, but also wears a crystal prism from which a rainbow halo sprouts (euhm The Faith of Seven? Hugor Hill?). His ego (sun) is on crotch height. He wields "wild fire" in one hand, a downturned/ upside down cup pouring liquid in the other. And then his vices are wine (grapes) and money (bag of coins). A couple of naked innocent children is depicted on it: they lie in each others arms. And it's either a lioness or tigre (animal instinct) cluthcing his leg, and a rose growing in the mind of a crocodile swiming in the waters of creation. Only one character was written to match this fool: Tyrion. Whenever he throws or flips a coin in the air, or wine is spilled (or both) Tyrion's fate and path is altered greatly.

Very insightful! Thank you. One further thought on horns came to me today- horns like Moses? Fools love a fool, after all.

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10 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

All men are knights and all men are fools where women are concerned...

I believe this is another symbolic dichotomy in which to both extremes lie doom. Like fire and ice. Love and Duty. Chivalry and foolishness.

But let’s not loose sight of the women!

As I believe each of these fools being tied to a women is important to understanding their meaning... (Note: while I think the ghost of high heart is relevant, I don’t think she’s a fool)

Interestingly there are 7 fools featured in ASoIaF:

I would propose each is a mockery of one of the Seven:

Moonboy: Mother Cersei’s fool (and maybe not so foolish, possibly employed by Varys). He has a pie shaped face, up jumped on stilts, and of course preforms at the purple wedding where Cersei’s son dies eating a pie. Moons are also associated with motherhood. 

Butterbumps: Crone of Thorns fool, he sings the maid and the maiden fair to mask her plotting with Sansa. The opposite of the Crone illuminating the way with her lamp.

Patchface: Shireen’s Stranger fool, has seemingly seen the other side. Where others may be knightly fools, he may well be Nights Fool.

Jinglebell: Fools blood and Maiden blood, Cat Kills him as a maiden is losing her virginity. And of course the Red Wedding itself was because the Maid Cat negotiated for her son was left a Maid.

Shagwell:  Brienne’s Warrior fool who fights and dies dishonorably and seems to care/protect nothing.

Ser Dontos: Sansa’s Smith fool who gives her a neckless. Of course it isn’t really fine workmanship, nor a family heirloom, and he didn’t even really construct the plan. 

Ser Manderly’s fool: Father Manderly’s fool, who is being bedded by a Frey’s handmaid for information. The Father is concerned with justice, and a man has a right to vengeance. Cooking people in pies is a mockery of justice however...

Great catch! I knew I was missing at least one! Interesting angle with the Fools and the Seven. I haven't gone down that road, but I have been wondering about Fools from each realm. What might a Dornish Fool be like?

"At Ghost Hill, the seat of House Toland atop the white chalk hill that overlooks the Sea of Dorne, Aegon saw the banner bearing the Toland ghost flying above the walls and received word that Lord Toland had sent out his champion to face him. Aegon slew the man with his sword, Blackfyre, only to learn that he was Lord Toland's mad fool and that Lord Toland himself was gone with his household from the castle. In later days, the Tolands would take a new banner, showing a dragon biting its own tail, green on gold in memory of the motley of their brave fool." . . . TWoIaF

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1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

Mayhaps she is Galladon reborn - not just Galldon of Morne (The Perfect Knight, whispering away, 'shoulda used the magic sword....'), but also Galladon her elder brother. That Tarth's arms are quartered also recalls motley, and as I mentioned in some other thread, her whole journey up Crackclaw was bit of a fool's errand, with a fool at the end of it.

Wonderful! She is not just Galladon, she is his sword- the Just Maid.

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

The 'morningstar' association with fools is also a good one, folks, I hadn't really focused on the fools around that particular weapon before...

And I hadn't considered it connection with Brienne's father, the Evenstar, until now... Hmmmmmm. Good stuff.

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

have taken a few looks at some of the partnerships between fools and women as well. Apparently that Florian and Jonquil pattern is more ubiquitous than it appears at first glance. Here are some links to old ideas (some of which have subsequently evolved).

I’ll check out the links!

Quote

I believe there may be other minor fools mentioned in the books - as well as the symbolic fools who are not portrayed as fools (Ser Loras, as outlined above, suddenly takes on many of the attributes and may be the best contender for a Florian figure if GRRM has plans for a more literal Florian in the denouement).  So I'm not sure your count of seven fools will stand, but the major ones are in your list, for sure.

 I have no doubt that I missed some, and if others find them I’d love to see them...

Also, I was clearly using a much more restrictive “fool” definition, as in a court jester, and not a dwarf or minstrel or mummer or symbolic fool...

And ravens probably deserve their own topic! Love it, don’t get me wrong... but I’m not sure I see ravens as fools... especially with two of the more famous mythological ones being memory and foresight (Odin’s Ravens loosely translated)

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5 hours ago, Seams said:

I think you might be on the right track, if you believe that Tyrion is the king of all fools. If you can stand a little more of my insane wordplay obsession, I suspect that the crofter's daughter - Tysha - represents Truth. Tyrion is seeking the truth when he constantly asks, "Where do whores go?"

Like a Westerosi Diogenes. Love it.

5 hours ago, Seams said:

 

crofter's daughter = truth sacred forge

If all of these missing VS swords eventually tie into Tyrion's story line, what we are seeing is Tyrion "constructing" the Iron Throne - collecting "swords" to create a single, melted-down chair for himself (or for someone).

But that starts to take us away from your excellent fool topic, so might be better left for another thread. Sorry to go off on another tangent.

Not an issue at all. I encourage you to run with whatever pops into your head- inspiration is not to be ignored.

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1 hour ago, hiemal said:

In seriousness, I think that with that many Freys a few are like to turn up decent- I think their odds increase inversely with their proximity to the Twins and to Walder.

I think that depend whether are they more inclined toward  a mother or a father.

Also, we don't know whether all Freys who participated in RW are really bad.

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15 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

I think that depend whether are they more inclined toward  a mother or a father.

Also, we don't know whether all Freys who participated in RW are really bad.

True. But bad and not innocent are not exactly the same. I don't think Roslin is bad, for example- but neither is she innocent. She played her part, albeit unwillingly. I also kind of like Elmar Frey, if I'm going to come clean. At least his scenes with Arya make me smile.

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I can't believe I forgot this one, the second-most important Florian incarnation barring only Brienne- Ser Duncan the Tall.

 

" Had ever a knight been made such a fool? Dunk the lunk, thick as a castle wall and slow as an aurochs.. . .

He thought back on all the songs he had heard, songs of blind Symeon Star-Eyes and noble Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, of Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Ser Ryam Redywne, and Florian the Fool. They had all won victories against foes far more terrible than any he would face. But they were great heroes, brave men of noble birth, except for Florian. And what am I?. . . 

"This morning the puppeteers were doing the tale of Florian and Jonquil. The fat Dornishwoman was working Florian in his armor made of motley, while the tall girl held Jonquil's strings. "You are no knight," she was saying as the puppet's mouth moved up and down. "I know you. You are Florian the Fool." . . .The Hedge Knight

Also, he comes with several Jonquils- one each story. Seriously, though- Jonquil/Jongluer. Was Florian a bard or perhaps a dancer such as graces the Pinkmaiden of the Pipers? I'm thinking of Dunk's Dornish puppeteer as well Jaime's stirring rendition of "Six Maids in a pool", And Tyrion and Penny?

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4 hours ago, hiemal said:

Excellent! The evolution of Foolery. I love it.

Very insightful! Thank you. One further thought on horns came to me today- horns like Moses? Fools love a fool, after all.

I'm not a tarot expert, but I think that in the Crowley tarot the fool has devilish horns because he represents potential for becoming good or evil...he has symbolism for both. Although with tarot the meaning is really personal for the reader, from what I understand, so any wordplay you see (or GRRM sees,if it's part of his inspiration) is fair play when interpreting. 

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11 hours ago, hiemal said:

a! Speaking of VS, the VS sword Truth is not in Westeros (seems significant)- do you think it represents a Bard's Truth or a Fool's Truth?  A Fool's Truth is sharper- what if Truth is Just Maid?

Wait a minute.  Truth is listed in the Westerosi inventories.  Why isn't it in Westeros? 

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58 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Wait a minute.  Truth is listed in the Westerosi inventories.  Why isn't it in Westeros? 

 I bow to your knowledge. For some reason I thought it was in Essos- Tyrosh or Lys? Perhaps it could come into play then.

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