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War of five kings riverlands

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13 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Did they? I thought they harried his rear.

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"If you have a mind to make yourself of use, I will give you a command," his father said. "Marq Piper and Karyl Vance are loose in our rear, raiding our lands across the RedFork."

 

13 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Small point, but Gregor wasn't meant to feign defeat

Flank was expected to break and Tyrion and the soldiers disn't know that but I think their commander Gregor would know so he can think of a good time to save his skin, not that he's much of a thinker but still better to know than not.

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Fair enough about Vance and Piper. It actually raises them in my estimation.

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Flank was expected to break and Tyrion and the soldiers disn't know that but I think their commander Gregor would know so he can think of a good time to save his skin, not that he's much of a thinker but still better to know than not.

I disagree on that. Tywin makes a point of saying that a feigned retreat is less effective than a real one, so I always assumed the Mountain was no more aware of the plan than Tyrion was. Certainly, the way he behaved in the battle (threatening to kill any man that retreated, and charging headlong into the Northmen), suggests he was fighting for real. Still, he's a nutjob, so who knows?

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23 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Fair enough about Vance and Piper. It actually raises them in my estimation.

I disagree on that. Tywin makes a point of saying that a feigned retreat is less effective than a real one, so I always assumed the Mountain was no more aware of the plan than Tyrion was. Certainly, the way he behaved in the battle (threatening to kill any man that retreated, and charging headlong into the Northmen), suggests he was fighting for real. Still, he's a nutjob, so who knows?

Would a retreat still be counted as feigned if only the commander knows about it and the soldiers think they will fight as usual?

Good point on Mountain but as you said he's a nutjob. My assumption was based on Mountain's value for Tywin; if his horse didn't break the line those spearmen could have easily punched him full of holes after his fall or he could have died in some other way. Would he risk one of his most valuable assets so easily? Quite possibly he knew but didn't care or acted as he was fighting for real until the action startef and then he got bloodlust.

At least he didn't take a page from Robb and acted rapey as I don't want to know what someone who rapes even when he's not angry is capable of in his rage rapes. :P

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Would a retreat still be counted as feigned if only the commander knows about it and the soldiers think they will fight as usual?

No idea, but letting the Mountain know what the plan was would be too confused. Tywin simply laid out a battle plan where he set up his left to fail. He put a bunch of hicks, savages and sellswords on that wing, and put it under the command of a wackjob. Telling Gregor the plan would have achieved little, other than blunting the man's headstrong instincts, which would have been counterproductive.

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Would he risk one of his most valuable assets so easily?

That's a fair point. Tywin wasn't willing to give up the Enormity-That-Rides even to appease Dorne, so chucking him away at the Green Fork is a bit strange. However, he also sends Gregor in first at the Battle of Stone Mill. Tywin seems to use Gregor like a giant opium-addled hand grenade - chuck him into violent situations and watch the destruction. He sees the use of the Mountain, but has zero interest in his personal safety.

 

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4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No, not against Stark-Tully alliance.

Yes, against the Stark-Tully alliance. 

Ser Kevan frowned over the map, forehead creasing. "Robb Stark will have Edmure Tully and the lords of the Trident with him now. Their combined power may exceed our own. And with Roose Bolton behind us … Tywin, if we remain here, I fear we might be caught between three armies."

Which is not surprising, given we can add the men with Robb in the West (around 5-6k), the men Edmure raises (11k), the men with Roose (around 12k) and the 800 garrison at the Twins easily outnumbers the 25k that the Lanniter have in the field. 

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Kevan says they may get outnumbered after Riverrun

Where does he say 'may'. 

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

but only after Edmure raises more men

There is nothing in the book that mentions that these are new men. We are told that Edmure released men to go back home and Cat points out that he has recalled them

Catelyn spied a second camp strung out along the bank north of the Tumblestone, familiar standards flapping in the wind—Marq Piper's dancing maiden, Darry's plowman, the twining red-and-white snakes of the Paeges. They were all her father's bannermen, lords of the Trident. Most had left Riverrun before she had, to defend their own lands. If they were here again, it could only mean that Edmure had called them back.

It is something that Cat was not happy about from the start of ACOK. 

Edmure persisted. "Do we grow stronger sitting here? Our host dwindles every day."

"And whose doing is that?" Catelyn snapped at her brother. It had been at Edmure's insistence that Robb had given the river lords leave to depart after his crowning, each to defend his own lands.
4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

they are outnumbered and that happens much later.

No, that happens from Jaime's defeat. There is only a 20k army left in the Riverlands after that while Robb's combined army is larger. 

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes? They aren't raiding at the heart of the Westerlands but it's still Tywin territory.

Right, but it is a little misleading to say that Tywin's lands were exposed given they would not have been able to get past the Golden Tooth. As far as we know no important Lords lands were in danger, which is basically what the nobility care about. 

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

I Should've been clearer; Tywin relied on surprise wars during peace time, like in Reyne-Tarbeck "Rebellion"

Which is a poor example ( and a bizarre use of quotation marks, they did rebel), the Reynes and Tarbecks knew they were at war, they choose to be at war

The Reynes and Tarbecks chose defiance instead, as Ser Tywin surely knew they would.  Both Houses rose in open revolt, renouncing their fealty to Casterly Rock.  Tywin Lannister called the banners.

and they had actually been preparing for this likelihood since the end of the Nine Penny War, a year before the conflict;

 Lord Reyne reportedly laughed when his maester read him Ser Tywin’s edicts, and counseled his friends and vassals to do nothing.  “The cub will soon grow weary of chasing his own tail,” he said. . . yet he set about strengthening the defenses of Castamere as well.

In fact the first battle was Tarbeck choosing to confront Tywin rather than sitting back at his castle and holding out till his brother-in-law arrived

Secure in his own strength, and that of his numerous friends and allies, Lord Walderan had oft been heard to boast that he had “no fear of lion cubs,” but the Lannister host descended on him so quickly that his vassals and supporters had no time to gather.  Foolishly his lordship rode forth to meet Ser Tywin’s host with only his household knights beside him.  In a short, brutal battle, the Tarbecks were broken and butchered.

This is purely a case of history repeating itself, the teenage Tywin was underestimated by his opponents, much like Tywin did of the teenage Robb, and they paid for it.

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

where as the other characters rely on surprise battles, during times of war when enemy already expects you but just not in that location or time.

That is not true at all. Stafford was not expecting Robb to find a hidden entrance into the West and attack his training camp, Jaime was not expecting a host from the North to attack nor was Mance expecting a Southern army to turn up. 

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Gregors flank was expected to break / feign retreat. Gregor and his giant horse falling on spearmen and breaking that line was luck. If things went as Tywin planned, Roose may not have fallen for the trap.

I'm still not following your logic, can you quote the relevant passages that show the Green Fork to be 'pure luck'. 

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where does he say 'may'.

"Their combined power may exceed our own" you just posted this.

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is nothing in the book that mentions that these are new men. We are told that Edmure released men to go back home and Cat points out that he has recalled them

So Edmure(and Tytos) had 11000 men, say 10000 without Mallisters, even after several defeats against Jaime's 14000, which, by the way was split into three parts all separated by bodies of water that need watercraft to be crossed and they didn't break that siege?Doesn't matter that some of them are captured, how many, by the way, do you suggest are in captivity?  Knights and lords, which amounted to 3000, would be held for ransom since they have value, something common soldiers don't have.

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Which is a poor example ( and a bizarre use of quotation marks, they did rebel), the Reynes and Tarbecks knew they were at war, they choose to be at war

Tywin knew exactly what would happen and was prepared for it, they only thought they rebelled.

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47 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

"Their combined power may exceed our own" you just posted this.

An it did, the number back up what Kevan thinks, the numbers of the North-Riverlands did exceed their own. 

47 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

So Edmure(and Tytos) had 11000 men, say 10000 without Mallisters, even after several defeats against Jaime's 14000, which, by the way was split into three parts all separated by bodies of water that need watercraft to be crossed and they didn't break that siege?Doesn't matter that some of them are captured, how many, by the way, do you suggest are in captivity?  Knights and lords, which amounted to 3000, would be held for ransom since they have value, something common soldiers don't have.

Sorry, I really don't know what you are asking here. 

 

47 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Tywin knew exactly what would happen and was prepared for it,

No, he knew there was a possibility it would but it was their choice to make and as the text makes clear, they had been preparing for such an eventuality for a year. 

Losing does not mean they  did not know what was going to happen, just that they did not know how effective a teenager could be. It's an obvious parallel to Tywin's encounter with Robb. 

47 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

they only thought they rebelled.

'Only'? What do you think the consequences of rebelling are? They choose to rebel, it should not be a surprise to face military consequences when announcing that you have rebelled. 

They were surprised that the teenage Tywin was so capable, not his intentions. 

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20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm still not following your logic, can you quote the relevant passages that show the Green Fork to be 'pure luck'. 

 

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A crescent of enemy spearmen had formed ahead, a double hedgehog bristling with steel, waiting behind tall oaken shields marked with the sunburst of Karstark. Gregor Clegane was the first to reach them, leading a wedge of armored veterans. Half the horses shied at the last second, breaking their charge before the row of spears. The others died, sharp steel points ripping through their chests. Tyrion saw a dozen men go down. The Mountain's stallion reared, lashing out with iron-shod hooves as a barbed spearhead raked across his neck. Maddened, the beast lunged into the ranks. Spears thrust at him from every side, but the shield wall broke beneath his weight. The northerners stumbled away from the animal's death throes. As his horse fell, snorting blood and biting with his last red breath, the Mountain rose untouched, laying about him with his two-handed greatsword.

 

Plan was that the flank lead by mountain would be broken and Northerners would rush in to the gap but instead mountain's horse broke the northerner lines.

This is what I call luck. If all went as planned Roose wouldn't go all in as Tywin hoped. It may or may not have still resulted as a defeat for Roose but one thing is for certain, it would cost Tywin more men and time.

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On 3/29/2018 at 10:19 AM, Bernie Mac said:

What do you mean 'no'? The Frey's are the most powerful bannerman of the Tullys. 

House Frey might have abandoned the King in the North, but the Lord of the Crossing remained the most powerful of Riverrun's bannermen

 

What does the books tell us about the numbers? 

None of which are as powerful as the Freys, certainly more prestigious, but not as powerful. 

It doesn't actually make sense for the Freys to be the most powerful bannermen.

 

The riverlands have multiple large towns just short of city status . There is no way the Freys have more men. 

 

That is also why it makes no sense that the riverlands can't defend itself from the westerlands which it should have at least a 3rd more in population. 

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On 3/31/2018 at 7:53 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

 

 

Plan was that the flank lead by mountain would be broken and Northerners would rush in to the gap but instead mountain's horse broke the northerner lines.

This is what I call luck. If all went as planned Roose wouldn't go all in as Tywin hoped. It may or may not have still resulted as a defeat for Roose but one thing is for certain, it would cost Tywin more men and time.

You said the  "Greenfork was pure luck" which is what I disagreed with as it is clearly wrong. 

 

On 3/31/2018 at 9:49 AM, dsjj251 said:

It doesn't actually make sense for the Freys to be the most powerful bannermen.

Sure it does. Fertile lands and large populations is what defines medieval  power and the Frey's rule large and fertile lands. 

On 3/31/2018 at 9:49 AM, dsjj251 said:

The riverlands have multiple large towns just short of city status .

Sure, not sure your point though. 

And it should be noted that the Freys themselves may have a town or two in their large lands. We still don't know which Lord rules Fairmarket

On 3/31/2018 at 9:49 AM, dsjj251 said:

There is no way the Freys have more men. 

How do you figure that? 

In the medieval era far more people lived outside of towns and cities and the people who resided in towns and cities were often more independent of the ruler than the people living and working on Lord's lands

On 3/31/2018 at 9:49 AM, dsjj251 said:

That is also why it makes no sense that the riverlands can't defend itself from the westerlands which it should have at least a 3rd more in population. 

eh? What exactly is this based on? 

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12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You said the  "Greenfork was pure luck" which is what I disagreed with as it is clearly wrong. 

 

Sure it does. Fertile lands and large populations is what defines medieval  power and the Frey's rule large and fertile lands. 

Sure, not sure your point though. 

And it should be noted that the Freys themselves may have a town or two in their large lands. We still don't know which Lord rules Fairmarket

How do you figure that? 

In the medieval era far more people lived outside of towns and cities and the people who resided in towns and cities were often more independent of the ruler than the people living and working on Lord's lands

eh? What exactly is this based on? 

What you are saying is possible , but not likely.

We are told the area north of the greenfork directly joining The North is swamp ( Southern Marshes ) not much farming or building to be done there .

Southwest of the twins, less than 3 days ride is Seaguard, Mallister territory.   

 House Blackwood controls all the area west of Fairmarket.Brakens all the area south, and Darry all to the east. 

Last but not least, everyone refers to the Freys as upstarts and toll collectors. Fairmarket has been around  for at least 700 years . And  the Freys only 600, but seeing as Fairmarket was a large town even back when Arlen Durrandon won the Riverlands , it's hard to believe he just gave it to them , or the Hoares after them. 

My point being , The Freys don't have great land, they have a bridge, alough it being profitable to the point of the Freys being rich doesn't make sense. The major cities of the Riverlands are more easily accessable on the Kings road and then getting on to the River Road or continuing South. Meaning no one from the North or Vale would ever really need The Twins  or vice versa with the Westerlands needing to go east or North. 

 

As for population and defense of the Riverlands; 

 

We are told multiple times in the books of how prosperous the Riverlands are and high in population and the fact that it has at least 4 towns(Fairmarket, Saltpans, Maidenpool, Lord Harroway's town)  just shy of being chartered as cities . No other kingdom even has one. All of this points to the Riverlands being far more populous than the Westerlands and while.

 

And the only reason the Riverlands have ever fallen before is because they were divided, not because they were outnumbered, and in this case, they certainly had a common cause and should have been able to easily surround Tywin and his mad dog. 

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13 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

What you are saying is possible , but not likely.

What exactly have I said that is not likely.?

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We are told the area north of the greenfork directly joining The North is swamp ( Southern Marshes ) not much farming or building to be done there .

How many miles North of the twins? Map of the Riverlands http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/107076/TheRiverlandsPolitical.jpg

That is around 50 miles to the Northern border over a potential with of hundreds of miles (given we are told that the Freys are the North' neigbours, that in itself is a huge amount of farmable land, but that not even the half of the Frey lands. 

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Southwest of the twins, less than 3 days ride is Seaguard, Mallister territory.   

Yes, to their West, not to their South. We know that Frey lands extend south of Seagard as the villages of Sevenstreams and Hags Mire are both Frey lands. 

All the way up the Blue Fork they rode, past Sevenstreams where the river unraveled into a confusion of rills and brooks, then through Hag's Mire, where glistening green pools waited to swallow the unwary and the soft ground sucked at the hooves of their horses like a hungry babe at its mother's breast.

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When they caught him down near Sevenstreams, old Lord Walder Frey hadn't even bothered to come himself to do the judging. He'd sent one of his bastards, that Walder Rivers, and the next thing Chett had known he was walking to the Wall with that foul-smelling black devil Yoren. 

So the Frey lands south of them are situated between two of the three forks of the trident, their lands are not only large but would be incredibly fertile. 

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 House Blackwood controls all the area west of Fairmarket. Brakens all the area south, and Darry all to the east. 

Where is that said in the books? I will save you some time, it is not said in the books, this may be a case of you taking your own head cannon as fact. We know where their castles are on a map, we have no idea how far those lands extend to. 

 

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Last but not least, everyone refers to the Freys as upstarts and toll collectors.

Yup as they are only 600 years old. That is well esstablished in the books, what is also established is that the Freys are the most powerful vassal of the Tullys. 

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Fairmarket has been around  for at least 700 years . And  the Freys only 600, but seeing as Fairmarket was a large town even back when Arlen Durrandon won the Riverlands , it's hard to believe he just gave it to them , or the Hoares after them. 

Do you know who else was around before the Frey's? House Charlton. 

Another period of anarchy and bloodshed followed. The realm that Benedict the Bold had knitted together was torn asunder once again, and a hundred years of conflict saw petty kings from the Houses Blackwood, Bracken, Vance, Mallister, and Charlton contending with one another for supremacy.

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Thus it was a stumbling, starving host of stormlanders who finally faced Harwyn Hardhand at Fairmarket, where Lothar Bracken, Theo Charlton, and a score of other riverlords had joined him. 

Currently, however, Lord Chalton is a vassal of the Freys. 600 years is a long time and given that we have no idea who ruled Fairmarket then or currently I'm not sure how you can jump to any concluion on who they swear fealty to. And it should be pointed out that there are many towns that have not been named, it is more than possible that the Freys have a town or two in their extensive lands. 

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My point being , The Freys don't have great land, they have a bridge,

I'm sorry, but you are wrong on this. From what we know, their lands are huge. Unlike the  southern Riverlands, with the Pipers, Tullys, Brackens, Blackwoods and both Vances all stepping on each others toes the Frey's seem to have no real competition for domination of the Northern Riverlands, with the Charltons their vassals, the Vyprens their close allies and the Mallister' preoccupied with the coast. 

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alough it being profitable to the point of the Freys being rich doesn't make sense.

Sure it does, they own a revenue stream that still makes money in winter when all the other Riverlords are relying on their reserves. Some Lords would have to sell some lands to survive(like what has happened to the Westerlings in the last few centuries). I imagine the Charlton's fall from dominance has benefited the Frey's who would be one of the few Houses with the income to take advantage of Houses falling on hard times.  

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The major cities of the Riverlands

There are no cities. 

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are more easily accessable on the Kings road and then getting on to the River Road or continuing South. Meaning no one from the North or Vale would ever really need The Twins  or vice versa with the Westerlands needing to go east or North. 

If a Northern merchant wanted to sell his goods to the central Riverlands or the Northern Westerlands than his journey is shorter by crossing the Twins rather than following the Kings Road and then heading West. 

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As for population and defense of the Riverlands; 

We are told multiple times in the books of how prosperous the Riverlands are and high in population and the fact that it has at least 4 towns(Fairmarket, Saltpans, Maidenpool, Lord Harroway's town)  just shy of being chartered as cities

No, you have misread. 

There has never been a city in the riverlands, strange as that might seem (though large market towns are common), likely because of the fractious history of the region and a tendency for the kings of the past to refuse the charters that might have given some Saltpans or Lord Harroway's Town or Fairmarket leave to expand.

There is zero information on the population of those towns, whether they are larger or less populated than other known towns from other realms such as Barrowton or kayce, just that they were denied the permission to expand. It may well be that other towns in the Reach or Westerlands were also denied these rights, but given that those two regions already have major cities it it less noteworthy. 

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No other kingdom even has one.

You are jumping to conclusions not made in the books, worse still you are doing it over information you have not properly read. 

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All of this points to the Riverlands being far more populous than the Westerlands and while.

They are roughly the same, the Riverlands might have more but nowhere near your claim of "at least a 3rd more in population". 

From the world books description of the West

These are rich lands, temperate and fruitful, shielded by high hills to the east and south and the endless blue waters of the Sunset Sea to the west.

And it is pointed out that they are one of the three most populace regions. 

Yet even at their greatest extent, the realms of the Durrandons and their successors have always been thinly peopled when compared to the Reach, the riverlands, and the west, and thus the might of the lords of Storm's End was diminished.

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And the only reason the Riverlands have ever fallen before is because they were divided, not because they were outnumbered, and in this case, they certainly had a common cause and should have been able to easily surround Tywin and his mad dog. 

No, there is zero evidence that the Riverlands can raise a larger army than the West and there is actual evidence that their forces are considerably smaller. 

"I'm told your son crossed the Neck with twenty thousand swords at his back," Renly went on. "Now that the lords of the Trident are with him, perhaps he commands forty thousand."
No, she thought, not near so many, we have lost men in battle, and others to the harvest.
Edited by Bernie Mac

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On 4/7/2018 at 5:59 AM, Bernie Mac said:

What exactly have I said that is not likely.?

How many miles North of the twins? Map of the Riverlands http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/107076/TheRiverlandsPolitical.jpg

That is around 50 miles to the Northern border over a potential with of hundreds of miles (given we are told that the Freys are the North' neigbours, that in itself is a huge amount of farmable land, but that not even the half of the Frey lands. 

Yes, to their West, not to their South. We know that Frey lands extend south of Seagard as the villages of Sevenstreams and Hags Mire are both Frey lands. 

All the way up the Blue Fork they rode, past Sevenstreams where the river unraveled into a confusion of rills and brooks, then through Hag's Mire, where glistening green pools waited to swallow the unwary and the soft ground sucked at the hooves of their horses like a hungry babe at its mother's breast.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When they caught him down near Sevenstreams, old Lord Walder Frey hadn't even bothered to come himself to do the judging. He'd sent one of his bastards, that Walder Rivers, and the next thing Chett had known he was walking to the Wall with that foul-smelling black devil Yoren. 

So the Frey lands south of them are situated between two of the three forks of the trident, their lands are not only large but would be incredibly fertile. 

Where is that said in the books? I will save you some time, it is not said in the books, this may be a case of you taking your own head cannon as fact. We know where their castles are on a map, we have no idea how far those lands extend to. 

 

Yup as they are only 600 years old. That is well esstablished in the books, what is also established is that the Freys are the most powerful vassal of the Tullys. 

Do you know who else was around before the Frey's? House Charlton. 

Another period of anarchy and bloodshed followed. The realm that Benedict the Bold had knitted together was torn asunder once again, and a hundred years of conflict saw petty kings from the Houses Blackwood, Bracken, Vance, Mallister, and Charlton contending with one another for supremacy.

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Thus it was a stumbling, starving host of stormlanders who finally faced Harwyn Hardhand at Fairmarket, where Lothar Bracken, Theo Charlton, and a score of other riverlords had joined him. 

Currently, however, Lord Chalton is a vassal of the Freys. 600 years is a long time and given that we have no idea who ruled Fairmarket then or currently I'm not sure how you can jump to any concluion on who they swear fealty to. And it should be pointed out that there are many towns that have not been named, it is more than possible that the Freys have a town or two in their extensive lands. 

I'm sorry, but you are wrong on this. From what we know, their lands are huge. Unlike the  southern Riverlands, with the Pipers, Tullys, Brackens, Blackwoods and both Vances all stepping on each others toes the Frey's seem to have no real competition for domination of the Northern Riverlands, with the Charltons their vassals, the Vyprens their close allies and the Mallister' preoccupied with the coast. 

Sure it does, they own a revenue stream that still makes money in winter when all the other Riverlords are relying on their reserves. Some Lords would have to sell some lands to survive(like what has happened to the Westerlings in the last few centuries). I imagine the Charlton's fall from dominance has benefited the Frey's who would be one of the few Houses with the income to take advantage of Houses falling on hard times.  

There are no cities. 

If a Northern merchant wanted to sell his goods to the central Riverlands or the Northern Westerlands than his journey is shorter by crossing the Twins rather than following the Kings Road and then heading West. 

No, you have misread. 

There has never been a city in the riverlands, strange as that might seem (though large market towns are common), likely because of the fractious history of the region and a tendency for the kings of the past to refuse the charters that might have given some Saltpans or Lord Harroway's Town or Fairmarket leave to expand.

There is zero information on the population of those towns, whether they are larger or less populated than other known towns from other realms such as Barrowton or kayce, just that they were denied the permission to expand. It may well be that other towns in the Reach or Westerlands were also denied these rights, but given that those two regions already have major cities it it less noteworthy. 

You are jumping to conclusions not made in the books, worse still you are doing it over information you have not properly read. 

They are roughly the same, the Riverlands might have more but nowhere near your claim of "at least a 3rd more in population". 

From the world books description of the West

These are rich lands, temperate and fruitful, shielded by high hills to the east and south and the endless blue waters of the Sunset Sea to the west.

And it is pointed out that they are one of the three most populace regions. 

Yet even at their greatest extent, the realms of the Durrandons and their successors have always been thinly peopled when compared to the Reach, the riverlands, and the west, and thus the might of the lords of Storm's End was diminished.

No, there is zero evidence that the Riverlands can raise a larger army than the West and there is actual evidence that their forces are considerably smaller. 

"I'm told your son crossed the Neck with twenty thousand swords at his back," Renly went on. "Now that the lords of the Trident are with him, perhaps he commands forty thousand."
No, she thought, not near so many, we have lost men in battle, and others to the harvest.

We are going to disagree so I will hit the high notes.

 

1. Hag's Mire  is at the head waters of the blue fork on the semi Canon and canon maps and  is directly east of seaguard, meaning it is all most directly south of the Twins . That is the furthest south we are ever told the Frey's lands go. As your own quote says , that area is nothing but bogs and green pools , not fertile farm lands.

 

2. When population is mentioned in A Song of Ice and Fire and it's companion novels, The Reach,Riverlands and Westerlands are always mentioned in that order . It's because the riverlands are more populous , we simply disagree on how big the Gap is. Saying the West had rich lands which equal a larger population is just as flawed an argument as saying it of the Vale, who also has rich lands, and even a chartered city.

 

As for the large towns of the Riverlands. We are 5 books and 2 atlases and About 7 prequals in and we have heard of no other large towns denied , requesting, or even being large enough to be considered for charters. It does not mean there are none, but it does mean we haven't been told of them. 

 

If you can make the argument that the Westerlands are close in population just because of a passage saying they have fertile land, the obviously I can flip that argue for the mention of multiple large town being a decisive factor.

 

3. Cat's estimation of forces are based on lines being broken, harvest and fighting a multi front war. Not the full strength of the Riverlands .  Again, your own quote says that. 

 

4. Circling back to Frey lands. Unless there are towns north of Hag's Mire, east of Seaguard and South of the Twins , the only reason to cross the twins is to go to Seaguard, which again doesn't make sense as to making the Frey's. Rich.

 

If you are coming down from the North , you can go around the head waters of the Green Fork. If you are in the Vale , you simply cross the Trident at the The place where the River Road, Kings Road and High Road meet. In the west, you travel the River Road and cross at the first crossing and go north to Seaguard ( or you know, boat travel)

 

The Tullys are overloads if the Riverlands, before them the Hoares, before them the Durrandon, before them the Freys didn't exist. We have no mention of Fairmarket changing hands or even The 3 bamed family's granting them new lands. It's hard to see a hated house gaining that much power.

 

Yea, you nor anyone else can't justify the Frey's wealth and power  without creating some "head canon" . 

 

I think the Freys position of power was left over from rewrites and the author needing a villain. 

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25 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

We are going to disagree so I will hit the high notes.

Why do people do this? You made a wrong claim, that "My point being , The Freys don't have great land, they have a bridge" now clearly this was wrong, as the books prove, but rather than admit you were mistaken you have chosen to just change your entire argument. 

Your original point was wrong, get over yourself. 

 

25 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

1. Hag's Mire  is at the head waters of the blue fork on the semi Canon and canon maps and  is directly east of seaguard, meaning it is all most directly south of the Twins . That is the furthest south we are ever told the Frey's lands go.

Hags Mire and Sevenstreams are south to Seaguard, they are not directly east. The books are very clear on this as are the maps, none of which show the blue fork to be directly east of Seagard. 

25 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

As your own quote says , that area is nothing but bogs and green pools , not fertile farm lands.

lol the quotes don't say that all, by all means quote the books which claim that all the frey lands is nothing but bogs and green pools

And of course we are talking about hundreds of miles of land, much of which is directly between two of the three forks of the trident. 

North of here the kingsroad ran along the Green Fork of the Trident, through fertile valleys and green woodlands, past thriving towns and stout holdfasts and the castles of the river lords.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Rich and fertile, the riverlands border on every other realm in the Seven Kingdoms save Dorne, yet have few natural boundaries to deter invasion. The waters of the Trident make the lands ripe for settlement, farming

It is made perfectly clear that the Trident is the primary reason why the Riverlands is so rich and fertile, the Freys, with lands situated in both forks, are going to have fertile lands. 

Why are you arguing against basic logic?

25 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

2. When population is mentioned in A Song of Ice and Fire and it's companion novels, The Reach,Riverlands and Westerlands are always mentioned in that order .

lol wtf? You claimed the Riverlands had a population at least three times as large as the Westerlands. I'm sorry but you were wrong.  That is what I pointed out, why is it so hard to admit you were mistaken? Why are you doubling down on a poorly thought out argument? 

25 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

It's because the riverlands are more populous , we simply disagree on how big the Gap is. Saying the West had rich lands which equal a larger population is just as flawed an argument as saying it of the Vale, who also has rich lands, and even a chartered city.

There is zero evidence that the Riverlands has a larger population than the West, they might do, I'm not really disputing that and had you said that it would not have been worthwhile responding but what you claimed was idiotic. 

25 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

As for the large towns of the Riverlands. We are 5 books and 2 atlases and About 7 prequals in and we have heard of no other large towns denied , requesting, or even being large enough to be considered for charters.

You do realize that the size has nothing to do with it, right? The charter stopped them from expanding, not that they were already big enough to be begin with. 

There has never been a city in the riverlands, strange as that might seem (though large market towns are common), likely because of the fractious history of the region and a tendency for the kings of the past to refuse the charters that might have given some Saltpans or Lord Harroway's Town or Fairmarket leave to expand.

And as the quote shows, large market towns are common in the Riverlands. 

 

25 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

If you can make the argument that the Westerlands are close in population just because of a passage saying they have fertile land, the obviously I can flip that argue for the mention of multiple large town being a decisive factor.

How is that a decisive factor? Every region has towns. The Westerlands also has a city that is twice the size of the two smallest cities of Westeros and the none of the Riverlands towns are as large as White Harbor. There is likely just as many urban dwellers in the West than there is in the Riverlands. 

 

25 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

3. Cat's estimation of forces are based on lines being broken, harvest and fighting a multi front war. Not the full strength of the Riverlands .  Again, your own quote says that. 

No, it does not. Where does she mention a multi front war? They are fighting the Lannisters and she has came to ask for support. 

And every region has to deal with casualties and harvest, this is not something that the Riverlands is alone in dealing with these obstacles.

The Riverlands military is much smaller than the Westerlands, that is simply a fact. 

25 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

4. Circling back to Frey lands. Unless there are towns north of Hag's Mire, east of Seaguard and South of the Twins , the only reason to cross the twins is to go to Seaguard, which again doesn't make sense as to making the Frey's. Rich.

The North is north of the Twins, that is an entire realm. I understand that you have trouble reading maps, but I don't really see how you could have missed this. 

 

25 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

The Tullys are overloads if the Riverlands, before them the Hoares, before them the Durrandon, before them the Freys didn't exist. We have no mention of Fairmarket changing hands or even The 3 bamed family's granting them new lands. It's hard to see a hated house gaining that much power.

And yet they have. That is simply a fact, they started off as petty lords with a bridge and have risen to become the most powerful vassal house in the Riverlands.

House Frey might have abandoned the King in the North, but the Lord of the Crossing remained the most powerful of Riverrun's bannermen

The books are quite clear on this. 

25 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Yea, you nor anyone else can't justify the Frey's wealth and power  without creating some "head canon" . 

Of course. Did you expect GRRM to be able to cover that much information in 7 books? 

25 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

I think the Freys position of power was left over from rewrites and the author needing a villain. 

And you, once again, would be wrong. The Freys power is not a rewrite it was established from the very first book when Walder provided Robb with more troops than any of his own bannermen, including the Manderlys. The Freys, by themselves, raised a 5th what Robb was able to raise from the North. 

 

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On 4/9/2018 at 1:59 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Why do people do this? You made a wrong claim, that "My point being , The Freys don't have great land, they have a bridge" now clearly this was wrong, as the books prove, but rather than admit you were mistaken you have chosen to just change your entire argument. 

Your original point was wrong, get over yourself. 

 

Hags Mire and Sevenstreams are south to Seaguard, they are not directly east. The books are very clear on this as are the maps, none of which show the blue fork to be directly east of Seagard. 

lol the quotes don't say that all, by all means quote the books which claim that all the frey lands is nothing but bogs and green pools

And of course we are talking about hundreds of miles of land, much of which is directly between two of the three forks of the trident. 

North of here the kingsroad ran along the Green Fork of the Trident, through fertile valleys and green woodlands, past thriving towns and stout holdfasts and the castles of the river lords.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Rich and fertile, the riverlands border on every other realm in the Seven Kingdoms save Dorne, yet have few natural boundaries to deter invasion. The waters of the Trident make the lands ripe for settlement, farming

It is made perfectly clear that the Trident is the primary reason why the Riverlands is so rich and fertile, the Freys, with lands situated in both forks, are going to have fertile lands. 

Why are you arguing against basic logic?

lol wtf? You claimed the Riverlands had a population at least three times as large as the Westerlands. I'm sorry but you were wrong.  That is what I pointed out, why is it so hard to admit you were mistaken? Why are you doubling down on a poorly thought out argument? 

There is zero evidence that the Riverlands has a larger population than the West, they might do, I'm not really disputing that and had you said that it would not have been worthwhile responding but what you claimed was idiotic. 

You do realize that the size has nothing to do with it, right? The charter stopped them from expanding, not that they were already big enough to be begin with. 

There has never been a city in the riverlands, strange as that might seem (though large market towns are common), likely because of the fractious history of the region and a tendency for the kings of the past to refuse the charters that might have given some Saltpans or Lord Harroway's Town or Fairmarket leave to expand.

And as the quote shows, large market towns are common in the Riverlands. 

 

How is that a decisive factor? Every region has towns. The Westerlands also has a city that is twice the size of the two smallest cities of Westeros and the none of the Riverlands towns are as large as White Harbor. There is likely just as many urban dwellers in the West than there is in the Riverlands. 

 

No, it does not. Where does she mention a multi front war? They are fighting the Lannisters and she has came to ask for support. 

And every region has to deal with casualties and harvest, this is not something that the Riverlands is alone in dealing with these obstacles.

The Riverlands military is much smaller than the Westerlands, that is simply a fact. 

The North is north of the Twins, that is an entire realm. I understand that you have trouble reading maps, but I don't really see how you could have missed this. 

 

And yet they have. That is simply a fact, they started off as petty lords with a bridge and have risen to become the most powerful vassal house in the Riverlands.

House Frey might have abandoned the King in the North, but the Lord of the Crossing remained the most powerful of Riverrun's bannermen

The books are quite clear on this. 

Of course. Did you expect GRRM to be able to cover that much information in 7 books? 

And you, once again, would be wrong. The Freys power is not a rewrite it was established from the very first book when Walder provided Robb with more troops than any of his own bannermen, including the Manderlys. The Freys, by themselves, raised a 5th what Robb was able to raise from the North. 

 

You are being obtuse at this point.

 

Quartermaester has the most detailed map,I suggest you look at it .

 

As for the land, again your own quote says Hag's mire and Sevenstreams are both bogs and green pools. That's not my opinion, it was your own quote. 

 

The King's Road is on the Eastern side of the Trident, land that we are never told belongs to the Twins

 

And to be clear, your quote isn't saying the borders have fertile lands, that is clear by the fact that the reliverlands border is the neck, and that land sure isn't fertile.

 

Cat Quotes - I could be wrong but one of your quotes about Frey Lands was from AGOT, where Cat meets Robb at either Greywater Watch or Moat Cailin ( can't remember which), either way at the war council,  Robb tells Cat about the war in the Riverlands. And he makes a decision about  either joining and  defending Riverrun with Edmure and his forces, or marching South to aid castles like Harrenhal which tywin will soon March on, or to wait and  make a stand at Moat Cailin when Tywin marches north. This is where they make the plan to use the Twins in the first place and she describes Frey lands. 

(This is exactly why Cat mentally  answers Renly the way she does when he asks her their forces.) 

 

As for population. if you fully understand that the Vale isn't populous simply because it had fertile land and one large city , then you can understand why that is a flawed argument to make in favor of the Westerlands as well. There is also the next half of your Westerlands quote that says they have green boys and fishermans sons holding Lance's. So their army isn't actually as big as it sounds . 

 

Charters - you get one to become a town, and another to become a city, there is no in between. While they could have been denied charters for being to small, the context of your quotes doesn't make it seem like that was the reason . 

 

Long story short, my original point is right. 

 

One line in the books say the Freys have great lands, but there is no actual evidence to support that . The neck is a swamp, as is Hags Mire and the area around the Head waters of the blue fork. you have no evidence to support the claim that the Freys control the land on the western bank of the Green Fork which would be the only fertile land they could own. 

 

Like i said, our author likely did a rewrite , well we know he did,bites of  the original version of the story has long been out there for a while.

 

The Freys shouldnt be as powerful as they are ( just like there should be a much more populous east coast Westeros instead of west coast ).

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1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

You are being obtuse at this point.

no, I disagreed with two points you mae

  1. that the freys only had a bridge
  2. that the riverlands had at least three times the population of the westerlands

both were wrong and I simply pointed this out, instead of accepting you made a mistake you moved the goalposts

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Quartermaester has the most detailed map,I suggest you look at it .

it is not canon, but I did look at it and even on this map hags mire is not directly east of seagard, it is below it. 

https://quartermaester.info/

o

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

As for the land, again your own quote says Hag's mire and Sevenstreams are both bogs and green pools. That's not my opinion, it was your own quote. 

and how does that invalidate the quotes from the world book or Cat? 

North of here the kingsroad ran along the Green Fork of the Trident, through fertile valleys and green woodlands, past thriving towns and stout holdfasts and the castles of the river lords.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Rich and fertile, the riverlands border on every other realm in the Seven Kingdoms save Dorne, yet have few natural boundaries to deter invasion. The waters of the Trident make the lands ripe for settlement, farming

 

Cat and her party are travelling in, almost like, monsoon river. 

 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

The King's Road is on the Eastern side of the Trident, land that we are never told belongs to the Twins

Given that the Freys are the most northern of the Riverlords they are going to rule some land on that eastern side. Also given that the Frey and their vassals, the Haigh's, are dealing with the outlaws on the eastern side of the green fork it stands to reason they have some rule over those lands

"There is a knight at Saltpans," Ser Arwood insisted. "He hid behind his walls whilst Clegane and his mad dogs ravaged through his town. You have not seen the things he did, ser. I have. When the reports reached the Twins, I rode down with Harys Haigh and his brother Donnel and half a hundred men, archers and men-at-arms. 

Which Houses do you think rules those lands? 

 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

And to be clear, your quote isn't saying the borders have fertile lands,

it is saying the Green Fork and Blue fork are and the Freys have lands on both of those rivers. 

I still don't know what your problem is, you first claim to not know how the Frey's are so powerful because you wrongly thought they just had a bridge. When pointed out that their lands are significantly larger, there is at least hundred miles between the Twins and Hags Mire, you are still not satisfied, now refusing to believe that two of the three forks of the trident are fertile. 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

that is clear by the fact that the reliverlands border is the neck, and that land sure isn't fertile.

eh? what point are you trying to make here? Is the blue fork on the border? The Twins themself are at least 50 miles from the border. 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Cat Quotes - I could be wrong but one of your quotes about Frey Lands was from AGOT,where Cat meets Robb at either Greywater Watch or Moat Cailin ( can't remember which),

Yes, you are wrong. None of the four quotes I used where from hat chapter. 

It should also be pointed out that Greywater watch is never seen in the books. 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

 either way at the war council,  Robb tells Cat about the war in the Riverlands. And he makes a decision about  either joining and  defending Riverrun with Edmure and his forces, or marching South to aid castles like Harrenhal which tywin will soon March on, or to wait and  make a stand at Moat Cailin when Tywin marches north.

No, not quite. Harrenhal is never mentioned, nor is defending other castles

Robb hesitated. "The Greatjon thinks we should take the battle to Lord Tywin and surprise him," he said, "but the Glovers and the Karstarks feel we'd be wiser to go around his army and join up with Uncle Ser Edmure against the Kingslayer." He ran his fingers through his shaggy mane of auburn hair, looking unhappy. "Though by the time we reach Riverrun … I'm not certain …"

 

 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

(This is exactly why Cat mentally  answers Renly the way she does when he asks her their forces.) 

eh? She points out that the Riverlands and North has nowhere near the combined 40k he thinks they have. 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

As for population. if you fully understand that the Vale isn't populous simply because it had fertile land and one large city ,

Much of the Vale is not the fertile, the Vale is made up of multiple former kingdoms, but only the vale is fertile, the rest varies between the lands like the fingers or to the desolate mountains that take up much of the Vale. 

Though the Vale itself is famously fertile, it is small compared to the domains of other kings (and even some great lords), and the Mountains of the Moon are bleak, stony, and inhospitable.

It should be obvious why the Vale is not populace, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

then you can understand why that is a flawed argument to make in favor of the Westerlands as well.

no, why don't you explain why it is. Why the author is wrong when he references them as one of three most populace regions in the realm, why they appear to have the seconded largest army in the series. 

please explain why you are right and the author is wrong about the fictional world he created. 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

There is also the next half of your Westerlands quote that says they have green boys and fishermans sons holding Lance's. So their army isn't actually as big as it sounds . 

which quote is that? 

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=green+boys+and+fisherman

and how does weaponry change the size of an army? 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Charters - you get one to become a town,

not in westeros you don't. many of these towns were formed in the days of the petty kingdoms. 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

and another to become a city, there is no in between.

eh? What does this have to do with population size?

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

While they could have been denied charters for being to small, the context of your quotes doesn't make it seem like that was the reason . 

size has nothing to do with it. The five cities of Westeros all have pretty different sizes. 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Long story short, my original point is right. 

lol no it was not. 

The Riverlands does not have three times the population of the West. 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

One line in the books say the Freys have great lands, but there is no actual evidence to support that .

We know their lands stretch from the Twins to the Northern border and to the Blue fork, that is almost two hundred miles of width, those are large lands, especially when we consider that they have access to two of the three forks of the trident. 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

 

The neck is a swamp,

Yes, the Neck is in the North, not the Riverlands. Did you miss that? 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

as is Hags Mire and the area around the Head waters of the blue fork.

lol are you under the impression that in the rich and fertile lands of the Riverlands they decided to build the villages of sevenstreams and hags mire in swamps?

On Cat's jourrney it has been raining almost continuously for the  two to three weeks. Did you miss that? 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

you have no evidence to support the claim that the Freys control the land on the western bank of the Green Fork which would be the only fertile land they could own. 

they clearly have fertile land. a lord can not raise and sustain a 4k army without fertile land and given the author has been pretty explicit in the fertility of the Trident it would seem bizarre that one of the major lords of the trident did not have fertile land. 

Your grasping at straws,. 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Like i said, our author likely did a rewrite ,

 how did he do a rewrite? The Freys had 4k from the very first book. What do you think he has rewrote about the Freys? 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

well we know he did,bites of  the original version of the story has long been out there for a while.

Yes and we can compare the original none canon parts with the canon parts. However the Freys are not mentioned in those original paragraphs on what the story might be. 

When you claim the Freys power have been rewrote what are you talking about? 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

The Freys shouldnt be as powerful as they are

 based on what, your refusal to think their lands are fertile? that says more about you than the author. 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

( just like there should be a much more populous east coast Westeros instead of west coast ).

how so? 

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On 4/11/2018 at 4:22 AM, Bernie Mac said:

 .......

On 4/11/2018 at 4:22 AM, Bernie Mac said:

no, I disagreed with two points

 

Again, quick highlights

 

"A third more "( what I actually typed)  =/= 3x's the population 

A 3rd is 1/3. so if the Westerlands has 2 million residents , then the Riverlands has 2.6 million , not 6 million

Frey Lands -  Cats ataement is invalidated by the fact that the other details in the book contradict it to an extent . In short, we are told Frey lands are fertile, but we never see these lands . We only see bogs and ubfarmable land. 

 

Saltpans certainly does not belong to the Freys or a Frey vassell, that we know for a fact, so them riding there proves nothing at all. 

And if the North controls all of the neck, that means the border is less than a days ride from the twins . Proving there are no fertile lands north of the twins and no proof their lands extend south of the blue fork. Are you not getting my point ?

 

Also, you understand " bogs and green pools" are swamps right ? Again, that's from quote you pulled. 

Westerlands - look at the quatermeadtrr map of the Vale and then look back at the west, geographically, they are similar. My argument isn't that they aren't 3rd place, but simply that they shouldn't be as close as we are told. 

Rewrites- well since it was originally a trilogy and And Robb was supposed to die in battle , it's easy to see there were some rewrites. 

As for the Riverlands defense quote. It's AGOT Catelyn's 8th chapter and it is indeed mentioned that Tywin in marching towards Harrenhal. Bolton and Glover are the ones who specifically mentions that Tywin is to smart to try and march the Neck because the crannogmen will bleed him and that he will instead take the Riverlands castle by castle until Riverrun stands alone. 

 

These are huge books , no one remembers them word for word, but you are making some " I don't remember it, so it doesn't exist arguments " even though it doesn't actually change anything.im literally reading a PDF of the book now. Your Robb quote is from page 550 , Harrenhal is mentioned on 549, " Tywin has closed off the Kings road, it's said, and now he is marching north towards Harrenhal, burning as he goes" 

 

Renly discussion with catelyn - the point was that you claimed the riverland never  had that many soldiers( not simply that they didn't have them in the moment) . You were wrong or at least didn't have enough information to come down on either side .

 

West coast of Westeros - it's simple . There are no major trading posts in the sunset sea. Where as there are 6 free cities on the coasts in the East, the first men came across on the arm of Dorne . It doesn't make sense for the west coast to have developed first especially with with Andals also having landed from the East . 

 

 

Edited by dsjj251

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10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Again, quick highlights

 

"A third more "( what I actually typed)  =/= 3x's the population 

fair enough, you said at least a third more. where is your evidence for this? as it seems you have pulled this figure out of thin air. 

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Frey Lands -  Cats ataement is invalidated by the fact that the other details in the book contradict it to an extent .

what contradicts her claim about the lands of the green fork? 

 

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

In short, we are told Frey lands are fertile, but we never see these lands . We only see bogs and ubfarmable land. 

no, we don't. not once do we see any lands on the green fork called that, 

somehow you have came to the conclusion that the wet description of their journey up the blue tooth is somehow describing swamp land, it does not. 

please quote were it claims the frey land is unfarmable? 

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Saltpans certainly does not belong to the Freys or a Frey vassell, that we know for a fact,

we actually don't know that for a fact. house cox is a knightly house, we have no idea who he serves. 

also never claimed they did, i actually think the harwick's rule those lands

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

so them riding there proves nothing at all. 

it shows they police lands down the green fork, which is what i claimed, you have not shown any evidence at all for any of your claims, by all means do

you claim the freys don't have large lands and their power makes no sense then provide evidence

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

And if the North controls all of the neck, that means the border is less than a days ride from the twins .

how so? what quote from the books have you based this conclusion on? 

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Proving there are no fertile lands north of the twins and no proof their lands extend south of the blue fork. Are you not getting my point ?

how is that evidence? 

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Also, you understand " bogs and green pools" are swamps right ? Again, that's from quote you pulled. 

the quote I pulled stated brooks and green pools

All the way up the Blue Fork they rode, past Sevenstreams where the river unraveled into a confusion of rills and brooks, then through Hag's Mire, where glistening green pools waited to swallow the unwary and the soft ground sucked at the hooves of their horses like a hungry babe at its mother's breast.

and i'm not sure what your issue here is, they were travelling in torrential rain, rain that had been pretty much continuous for their whole journey 

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=rain&scope[]=asos&povs[]=Catelyn

that is going to have an effect on the grassland, have you never been to the fertile country when its been raining continuously? it does not stay miraculously dry. 

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Westerlands - look at the quatermeadtrr map of the Vale and then look back at the west, geographically, they are similar.

no they are not, one is mostly, in the authors own words, uninhabitable mountains, the west is hills and those hills are inhabited

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

My argument isn't that they aren't 3rd place, but simply that they shouldn't be as close as we are told. 

based on what? 

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Rewrites- well since it was originally a trilogy and And Robb was supposed to die in battle , it's easy to see there were some rewrites. 

how can it be a rewite when the large 4k frey army was established in the very first book. there was no number for the frey army before the first book

i'm sorry, you are genuinely confusing me, what do you think was rewritten?

 

  1. what was the original information we the readers had
  2. what do you think was changed
  3. and in which book was it changed
10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

As for the Riverlands defense quote. It's AGOT Catelyn's 8th chapter and it is indeed mentioned that Tywin in marching towards Harrenhal.

I'm not disputing that, I'm disputing your claim that Robb's plan was to go and defend harrnehal

 

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

These are huge books , no one remembers them word for word, but you are making some " I don't remember it, so it doesn't exist arguments "

no, you are making claims and i'm asking you to back them up, that is all. 

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

even though it doesn't actually change anything.im literally reading a PDF of the book now.

so then it should be easy to search for keywords to back up your claims

10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Renly discussion with catelyn - the point was that you claimed the riverland never  had that many soldiers( not simply that they didn't have them in the moment) . You were wrong or at least didn't have enough information to come down on either side .

there is zero evidence that they had the same number of soldiers in the riverlands than the army Tywin brought with him to the Riverlands, it seems to be at least 10k smaller than the invading army. that is at odds with the idea that the riverlands has a significantly higher population as, generally speaking, army sizes are dependent on the population of realms.

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On 3/29/2018 at 6:16 AM, Matter-of-fact said:

Why we're the riverlands unable to defend from lannisters without reinforcements from north and where was the supposed strength of  450000?

First, as noted above, the supposed strength of Riverlands is much lower than 45K - more like 20K. For all the fertility of the region, Riverlands spent centuries under Durrandon and Ironborn yoke, constantly bleeding men and coin in other peoples' wars. The burning of Riverlands by Aemond didn't help.

Second, there is some fishy shit going in the Riverlands. Not only is there passive-aggressive disobedience by Freys - the entire start of the war between Lannisters and Starks relies heavily on the account given to Ned by Rivermen. The account is full of contradictions and notorious Targaryen loyalists Darrys are involved.

So not only are Riverlands quite weak in terms of population in wealth, not only do Lannisters have a political advantage, not only do Riverlands lack an authority that can bring others to heel (Tullys just aren't strong enough to control their bannermen like Starks), there are probably conspiracies afoot to undermine Riverlands and maybe the entire realm. And when one side looks like winning, castles tend to fall quite fast, just like IRL.

 

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