Weird dragon logistics

[DMC]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

For instance, we don't see Silverwing, Vermithor, and Seasmoke actively search out potential riders, never mind that plenty of dragonless Targaryens were around - Viserys I, Aemond, Lady Rhaena, Prince Viserys, and all the children of Rhaenyra, Daemon, Alicent, and Aegon II before the eggs they got did hatch.

Well, the obvious explanation there is aside from the former two, everyone mentioned did have a dragon egg, at the least.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only one that didn't was Maelor.  As for Viserys I, I could understand not thinking any other dragon was worthy after Balerion, plus it's not like he needed one so it makes sense he didn't desire one.  With Aemond and Vhagar, yeah, it's weird he apparently didn't have a dragon egg or a dragon egg hatch or bond with a hatched dragon beforehand, but meh - could chalk this up to like Maegor where he wanted to wait.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

(the example would be Vhagar who passed from Laena Velaryon to Aemond Targaryen).

Did Laena have any reason to hold ill-will towards Aemond before her death (other than being married to Daemon, quite the bearer of ill-will)?  The incident between Aemond and Joffrey necessarily came after her death.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But even if that were a thing, why on earth did Quicksilver search out Prince Aegon rather than bond with Alyssa Velaryon or Aenys' second son, Prince Viserys, who were there on Dragonstone when King Aenys died? As of yet we have no evidence that Prince Viserys was a dragonrider, so he would have been free to claim Quicksilver, no?

Fair questions.  Only explanation would be Quicksilver was somehow "earmarked" for Aenys' heir.  Perhaps this would help explain why the crown prince was dragonless - he would inherit his dragon just as he (should have) inherits the throne upon his father's death.  Again, Maegor is a kindof precedent.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We also have to assume that Rhaena was separated from her for a considerable time since she didn't accompany Prince Aegon to the Gods Eye - which is odd considering that two dragons would have been better than one. Not to mention that both of them should have been able to escape the Poor Fellows if Dreamfyre had been with them. Last time I looked, dragon could fly. Why didn't Rhaena and Aegon (or only Rhaena, if Dreamfyre couldn't carry them both) escape from Crakehall on dragonback? Why didn't they use their dragon(s) to attack the Poor Fellows?

I think pregnancy, then recovery from birthing twins would be the answer here, but why Rhaena didn't aid Aegon is rather irrelevant to the query.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If they had shown up in the Free Cities or Storm's End with dragons somebody would have talked. Dragons are beautiful, wondrous creatures. And if Lord Baratheon had suddenly shut down his castle, refusing to allow his servants and men to leave the castle Maegor and Tyanna would have learned about that, too. Storm's End isn't exactly that far away from KL, is it?

Yeah, like I said, not too familiar with SotD.  "Disappearing" with two dragons, if it's presented the way you say it is, sounds pretty implausible.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sorry, but Drogon most definitely didn't come back to Meereen to save Daenerys. He grew so wild that he nearly killed her, and he gives on indication that he wanted to prevent her from eating the locusts that were already long gone by the time he arrived.

Well, the entire idea is he came once Dany realized the locusts were poison, and that only becomes apparent until immediately before/during Drogon's arrival in the text.  That's actually why I think there may be something to it - the timing is curious to me (then again, may just be way too many rereads).  But yeah, this is a leap of faith on my part that's not really worthy of debate.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess that actually can make sense if you imagine her as an adventurer with survival skills. Sothoryos isn't an empty place. She could have gotten food and supplies in various villages and settlements, not to mention the possibility that she and Terrax hunted down animals together (the way Dany and Drogon do in the Dothraki Sea). Depending on the size of her dragon she could also have carried some equipment - a tent, etc. - on Terrax's back.

Ok, if you accept that a dragon stuck around with her rider in solitude for three years amidst a continent as dangerous as Sothoryos is purported to be, then you must accept riders have some type of warg-like control/bond with their dragon, no?  In which case, once bonded, the logistics of seafaring at least become eminently easier, addressing a large part of the OP.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 4/1/2018 at 1:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

And it isn't said that the dragons destroyed them with the fire alone, they used their claws, too, which are powerful as well.

In that case, snow wouldn't be a good cover at all. 

On 4/1/2018 at 1:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

then Dany's presence is not likely going to be enough to prevent a dragon from accidentally burning a ship...

But why would anyone disturb a dragon in a manner that makes it want to burn down a ship? With Syrax, that's what happened. But Rhaenyra doesn't seem to tell Syrax to stop or anything like it. The dragon just shrugs off the prince, without the rider knowledge whatsoever. Then again, we can ask if Syrax would have done the same thing if her rider was mounted with the other stranger? Same with Dany, would Drogon burn a ship if she was on it?

On 4/1/2018 at 1:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

The point here is also that Dany does not wish any of her dragons to snap at her maids and friends. Yet they do it anyway.

Does she ever actively try to stop them from doing that?

On 4/1/2018 at 1:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

The way the situation in Daznak's Pit is described indicates that Drogon still struggles to carry Dany into the air. The size of the dragon doesn't necessarily mean it has the strength to carry any weight. Victarion (in armor) is much heavier than Dany the little girl (or Tyrion).

But in the following chapter we learn that Drogon has gotten stronger at least a bit. His scales are harder and the whip no longer hurts him. Maybe at the beginning of DwD these dragons were too small to carry anyone. But by the end, they are definitely bigger and stronger. I think Barristan notes that the freed dragons are getting bigger. By the time Victarion arrives, these dragons would probably be big enough to carry an adult. Their fire is certainly hot enough to burn adults to crisps. 

 

[ChuckPunch]

"magic"

[rotting sea cow]

On 4/1/2018 at 10:29 AM, Lord Varys said:

The way the situation in Daznak's Pit is described indicates that Drogon still struggles to carry Dany into the air. The size of the dragon doesn't necessarily mean it has the strength to carry any weight. Victarion (in armor) is much heavier than Dany the little girl (or Tyrion).

Really, could you please provide textual evidence that Drogon struggled to carry Dany? I just re-read the last Dany's chapter and noticed that she has been flying almost everyday for a while.

On 4/1/2018 at 10:29 AM, Lord Varys said:

Well, if the Others are weak against dragonfire - which they might be, who knows? - then they will be melted by it. I was talking about structures covered in snow being attacked by dragonfire.

And, of course, if the Others can create snowstorms and blizzards and hailstorms then they should effectively neutralize the dragons. Even if they could withstand weather like that, their riders might not.

Well, it seems you are destroying the whole purpose of the existence of dragons in the narrative. If they are neutralized by severe weather, it may well be that the Others will win.

On 4/1/2018 at 10:29 AM, Lord Varys said:

If Aurane cared about Dany, he wouldn't be in the Stepstones right now, he would be on his way to Meereen. Sure, he could team up with her eventually, but she is not likely going to come soon. He might be long dead by then.

He may be in the way or not. We have very limited perspective about him, maybe he is just waiting for more news. The stepstones are an excellent place to await for the next movements and he won't be dead until he uses his dromons, Anyway, I lean towards him joining Aegon
 but being a Valeryon, he may know a little bit more about Targaryens and dragons.

On 4/1/2018 at 10:29 AM, Lord Varys said:

Wouldn't that have been Aemon back then? I think you refer to the old reports we had from the readings when AFfC/ADwD were still supposed to be one book? Back then Quaithe may have believe Aemon was on his way to Dany.

If you look at the pairing of the people coming in that prophesy, it is unlikely it was referring to Aemon.

On 4/1/2018 at 10:29 AM, Lord Varys said:

His arm is smoking. And he actually does worship R'hllor now, in his own way. He is no longer a normal human being.

Yeah, it might be, there is change in his characterization, becoming more brutal on-screen, but I'm undecided about the extend of it.

[Lord Varys]

22 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Well, the obvious explanation there is aside from the former two, everyone mentioned did have a dragon egg, at the least.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only one that didn't was Maelor.  As for Viserys I, I could understand not thinking any other dragon was worthy after Balerion, plus it's not like he needed one so it makes sense he didn't desire one.  With Aemond and Vhagar, yeah, it's weird he apparently didn't have a dragon egg or a dragon egg hatch or bond with a hatched dragon beforehand, but meh - could chalk this up to like Maegor where he wanted to wait.

Oh, but we are comparing the scenario of Quicksilver actively searching out Prince Aegon to Viserys I, Viserys II, Rhaena, Maelor, etc. never being actively searched out by the riderless dragons around them. Why didn't Laenor's Seasmoke never bond with dragonless Rhaena after the death of her dragon? Why had Hugh, Ulf, Addam, and Nettles search out and claim their dragons rather than being searched out by them?

If dragons occasionally - as in the case of Quicksilver and Prince Aegon - actually searched for new riders among the people having dragonlord blood (and even crossed vast distances to do so rather than bonding with the guys attending King Aenys' funeral) then why on earth doesn't happen this later on in the story?

22 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Did Laena have any reason to hold ill-will towards Aemond before her death (other than being married to Daemon, quite the bearer of ill-will)?  The incident between Aemond and Joffrey necessarily came after her death.

Things weren't as bad at this time, but Laena and Daemon were part of the Black team already. They got along very well with Rhaenyra which, in turn, should have made Vhagar as much of a fan of Aemond's as she is later of Caraxes (with whom she got along splendidly while her rider was married to Daemon).

22 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Fair questions.  Only explanation would be Quicksilver was somehow "earmarked" for Aenys' heir.  Perhaps this would help explain why the crown prince was dragonless - he would inherit his dragon just as he (should have) inherits the throne upon his father's death.  Again, Maegor is a kindof precedent.

Considering that Maegor had to stalwartly multiple dragon hatchlings that we offered to him, it is kind of odd to assume that the second in line to the Iron Throne - and then later the Heir Apparent, after Aenys became king - was never given a dragon by his royal grandfather and father.

And, in fact, if Aegon was saving himself for a dragon it should have been Balerion or Vhagar, not Quicksilver. King Aenys was only thirty when he became king, and was likely expected to rule as long as his father. Why only give the Heir Apparent - who would have to represent the king and the royal dynasty long before he would actually take the Iron Throne - a dragon after his father's death?

Yet Aegon makes no attempt to claim Balerion after his grandfather's death despite the fact that he was there when he died.

And once Maegor had Balerion it would have been of paramount importance to ensure that all of King Aenys' children became dragonriders, too, so that they don't fall behind their princely half-uncle.

22 hours ago, dmc515 said:

I think pregnancy, then recovery from birthing twins would be the answer here, but why Rhaena didn't aid Aegon is rather irrelevant to the query.

True, although the children are about a year old when Prince Aegon dies, so Rhaena should have recovered long before that happened.

22 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah, like I said, not too familiar with SotD.  "Disappearing" with two dragons, if it's presented the way you say it is, sounds pretty implausible.

People have speculated that they only claimed the dragons after their disappearance since it isn't mentioned that they fled with the dragons. Yet when they reveal themselves at Storm's End and Jaehaerys and Alysanne are dragonriders, and their mounts are deemed powerful enough to actually challenge Balerion - which means they cannot have been hatchlings barely big enough to carry their riders.

22 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Well, the entire idea is he came once Dany realized the locusts were poison, and that only becomes apparent until immediately before/during Drogon's arrival in the text.  That's actually why I think there may be something to it - the timing is curious to me (then again, may just be way too many rereads).  But yeah, this is a leap of faith on my part that's not really worthy of debate.

Dany never understood that the locusts were poisoned, or did she? She just realized Belwas was sick. She never suspects that Hizdahr intended to kill her, either.

22 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Ok, if you accept that a dragon stuck around with her rider in solitude for three years amidst a continent as dangerous as Sothoryos is purported to be, then you must accept riders have some type of warg-like control/bond with their dragon, no?  In which case, once bonded, the logistics of seafaring at least become eminently easier, addressing a large part of the OP.

Oh, there is some kind of magical bond between a dragon and its rider. I've no problem with Aegon II (sub)consciously calling his mount Sunfyre to Dragonstone. They had a bond. But Quicksilver wasn't Prince Aegon's dragon until he claimed him, and he could only claim her after his father's death. There is a huge difference there.

For all we know Dany and the other dragonriders might turn out to be able to call their dragons to their aid even when they are very far away - or they could trigger them to hunt target and kill a person they consider a traitor while they are trying to escape the camp/castle - but we have to wait and see what they can do. Hints that those bonds are pretty powerful are there. Dreamfyre apparently also felt the death of her rider, Queen Helaena, in the Dragonpit, expressing her grief afterwards.

But, quite honestly, I'd not be surprised if Jaenara didn't go to Sothoryos completely on her own afterwards. It is not that Yandel gives us any principal sources on that story. It may have been a small party of adventurous dragonlords.

5 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

In that case, snow wouldn't be a good cover at all. 

So you think dragons are going to burst into the roofs of castles and houses to destroy, risking to kill themselves and their riders in the process of that? 

5 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

But why would anyone disturb a dragon in a manner that makes it want to burn down a ship? With Syrax, that's what happened. But Rhaenyra doesn't seem to tell Syrax to stop or anything like it. The dragon just shrugs off the prince, without the rider knowledge whatsoever. Then again, we can ask if Syrax would have done the same thing if her rider was mounted with the other stranger? Same with Dany, would Drogon burn a ship if she was on it?

It is a matter of vicinity. Dany/a dragonrider being on out hypothetical ship, Rhaenyra being in the castle. Syrax likely didn't want to kill Prince Joffrey. She just wanted him gone from her back because he wasn't her rider. Yet she killed him anyway. A dragon being on a ship might not want to burn or sink a ship (and kill itself in the process, if it actually stuck beneath decks) but that doesn't mean it won't accidentally do it because breathing fire is part of its natural behavior - something a dragon does not actually only do when it is fighting or angry, but also when it is eating.

5 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Does she ever actively try to stop them from doing that?

She tells them not to do it after she sees them doing it. But control would mean she could prevent them from doing it before they do it, no?

In fact, if we think about the emotional link between a dragon and its rider - Dreamfyre being sad about Helaena's death, Vhagar and Caraxes and other dragons sharing the hatred and love their riders felt for each other - then it might actually be that Rhaenyra's grief and her subsequent hate for her mount actually caused Syrax to commit suicide by dragonslayers.   

5 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

But in the following chapter we learn that Drogon has gotten stronger at least a bit. His scales are harder and the whip no longer hurts him. Maybe at the beginning of DwD these dragons were too small to carry anyone. But by the end, they are definitely bigger and stronger. I think Barristan notes that the freed dragons are getting bigger. By the time Victarion arrives, these dragons would probably be big enough to carry an adult. Their fire is certainly hot enough to burn adults to crisps.

Drogon certainly grew larger between Daznak's Pit and the final chapter.

How large Viserion and Rhaegal are in comparison to Drogon is unclear. They were imprisoned, and if it is true that being imprisoned halts or slows a dragon's growth then Drogon should actually be considerably larger than than these two by now. Nobody denies that they have grown as well, but we won't know how big they are in comparison to Drogon until people see them all together and compare their sizes to each other.

46 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Really, could you please provide textual evidence that Drogon struggled to carry Dany? I just re-read the last Dany's chapter and noticed that she has been flying almost everyday for a while.

I think it is then and there in the chapter where he first flies with Dany out of the Pit.

46 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well, it seems you are destroying the whole purpose of the existence of dragons in the narrative. If they are neutralized by severe weather, it may well be that the Others will win.

Well, perhaps the Others can cook up snowstorms, blizzard, and hailstorms at will. But I sure as hell don't think the dragons just have to fly in and save the day. Or rather: This might not be all that easy under any circumstances.

The idea that dragons of much use in a snowstorms - never mind whether there are Others out there or not - doesn't strike me as particularly likely.

46 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

He may be in the way or not. We have very limited perspective about him, maybe he is just waiting for more news. The stepstones are an excellent place to await for the next movements and he won't be dead until he uses his dromons, Anyway, I lean towards him joining Aegon but being a Valeryon, he may know a little bit more about Targaryens and dragons.

Well, if he wanted to join Dany the thing to do would be to bring those ships to her, no? Hanging out at the Stepstones isn't going to get him to her, especially not if she doesn't go west. The people who want to join Daenerys went to her - or at least seriously considered going to her.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

So you think dragons are going to burst into the roofs of castles and houses to destroy, risking to kill themselves and their riders in the process of that? 

They can probably use their claws, but even in winter or rain, dragonfire remains formidable. In rain, Baerion's fire is not as hot as when he is dry, but it still manages to burn things down as Maegor wants. Snow isn't really a cover against dragonfire. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is a matter of vicinity. Dany/a dragonrider being on out hypothetical ship, Rhaenyra being in the castle. Syrax likely didn't want to kill Prince Joffrey. She just wanted him gone from her back because he wasn't her rider. Yet she killed him anyway. A dragon being on a ship might not want to burn or sink a ship (and kill itself in the process, if it actually stuck beneath decks) but that doesn't mean it won't accidentally do it because breathing fire is part of its natural behavior - something a dragon does not actually only do when it is fighting or angry, but also when it is eating.

I don't think this is a big risk considering large dragons would be flying overhead and if they want to eat, they would breath fire at like fish in the ocean, not things on the ship. With a baby dragon that can hiss fire, this might be a risk. The Valyrians managed to keep a formidable fleet and dragons, so this cannot be an unmanageable situation. Kind of like keeping a dragon and a castle. The dragon's didn't accidentally burn down Dragonstone or KL when they were there eating on the ground and stuff. 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody denies that they have grown as well, but we won't know how big they are in comparison to Drogon until people see them all together and compare their sizes to each other.

 

Fair point I guess. But I think from Quentyn's chapters even the imprisoned dragons had gotten quite big by that point. 

 

[Millimidget]

I think you're forgetting that dragons have three heads; the (human) soul which was used to fertilize the egg, the dragonrider, and a skinchanger.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

They can probably use their claws, but even in winter or rain, dragonfire remains formidable. In rain, Baerion's fire is not as hot as when he is dry, but it still manages to burn things down as Maegor wants. Snow isn't really a cover against dragonfire.

From what we know about the Last Storm and the Battle at the Great Fork of the Blackwater rain can diminish the power of a dragon's fire. The same should go for snow.

In addition, we do know the Field of Fire was only possible because Aegon was able to use the weather to his advantage. The wheat on all those was very dry, allowing the fire to spread as quickly as it did.

3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I don't think this is a big risk considering large dragons would be flying overhead and if they want to eat, they would breath fire at like fish in the ocean, not things on the ship. With a baby dragon that can hiss fire, this might be a risk. The Valyrians managed to keep a formidable fleet and dragons, so this cannot be an unmanageable situation. Kind of like keeping a dragon and a castle. The dragon's didn't accidentally burn down Dragonstone or KL when they were there eating on the ground and stuff. 

Dragons usually are not living in castles, much less castles made out of wood (i.e. ships). Dragonstone actually be pretty much impervious to dragon fire, considering that it made of, you know dragon stone, but other castles might not be as lucky.

The Valyrians likely never transported their dragons in ships. And the reason why we discuss this here is that George gives the impression certain dragons were transported by ships (and that Dany's dragon might be carried by ship in the future).

3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Fair point I guess. But I think from Quentyn's chapters even the imprisoned dragons had gotten quite big by that point. 

They certainly are impressive by now. Quentyn never got a good look at Drogon, though.

[John Suburbs]

There is an SSM that somewhat addresses the futility of delving into physics and logistics when it comes to dragons, the same way that it does not good to delve into chromosomal explanations for someone like Brienne:

Quote

Jan, 2001

If I start worrying about Brienne's chromosomes, the next step is trying to figure out the aerodynamic properties of dragons, and then the whole thing falls apart. Brienne is a huge, homely woman, a freak of nature by the standards of her own world and times... they can't explain her, and neither should I.

So my guess is that the best we can hope for is that dragons are magical creatures doing magical things in a magical world.

[DMC]

On 4/2/2018 at 4:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, but we are comparing the scenario of Quicksilver actively searching out Prince Aegon to Viserys I, Viserys II, Rhaena, Maelor, etc. never being actively searched out by the riderless dragons around them. Why didn't Laenor's Seasmoke never bond with dragonless Rhaena after the death of her dragon? Why had Hugh, Ulf, Addam, and Nettles search out and claim their dragons rather than being searched out by them?

Ok, in terms of the Viserys', this again is because they did not desire another dragon.  I think this is very plausible in both instances.  Same thing with Rhaena, really - as long as you mean Lady Rhaena, right?  She was a child, and eventually bonded with Morning, who died well after the end of the Dance.  If we want to wonder why Targs didn't bond with riderless dragons after the Dance, that's a fair question, but I think deserves it's own line of questioning that would be distinctly different from this thread.

As for why Hugh et al. had to search them out - again, because all the relevant Targs did not desire the riderless dragons.  Maybe I'm missing somebody, but who would've that was over the age of, like, 8 at the time?  We have the one instance of Prince Aegon and Quicksilver.  The latter presumably knew the former quite well.  Whereas none of the riders had any familiarity with Hugh, Ulf, or Addam.  This aspect seems pretty clear to me.

On 4/2/2018 at 4:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Considering that Maegor had to stalwartly multiple dragon hatchlings that we offered to him, it is kind of odd to assume that the second in line to the Iron Throne - and then later the Heir Apparent, after Aenys became king - was never given a dragon by his royal grandfather and father.

I agree that it would be odd not to give a dragon egg to Aenys' heir - although I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the bolded.  Maybe they never hatched?  Maybe they did and Aegon and/or the dragons never accepted the bond?  And, maybe, Aenys wanted his heir to inherit his dragon either before or after such things transpired.  Who knows?

On 4/2/2018 at 4:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

And, in fact, if Aegon was saving himself for a dragon it should have been Balerion or Vhagar, not Quicksilver. King Aenys was only thirty when he became king, and was likely expected to rule as long as his father. Why only give the Heir Apparent - who would have to represent the king and the royal dynasty long before he would actually take the Iron Throne - a dragon after his father's death?

Yet Aegon makes no attempt to claim Balerion after his grandfather's death despite the fact that he was there when he died.

If Maegor made it apparent he had designs on Balerion, I think it'd be prudent of Prince Aegon NOT to try to acquire the dragon.  As for Vhagar, one could probably argue something similar; I doubt Visenya was very welcoming to Rhaenys' progeny - especially considering she fled on Vhagar when Aegon was pronounced Prince of Dragonstone.

On 4/2/2018 at 4:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

People have speculated that they only claimed the dragons after their disappearance since it isn't mentioned that they fled with the dragons. Yet when they reveal themselves at Storm's End and Jaehaerys and Alysanne are dragonriders, and their mounts are deemed powerful enough to actually challenge Balerion - which means they cannot have been hatchlings barely big enough to carry their riders.

Yeah I agree that sequence doesn't make any sense.  

On 4/2/2018 at 4:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Dany never understood that the locusts were poisoned, or did she? She just realized Belwas was sick.

Again, this is a leap of faith on my part.  I do think it's quite possible she did realize what Belwas' sickness meant (as most heads of state would, especially one as paranoid about betrayal as Dany) and she just doesn't have the time to mention it.  But that's just me.

On 4/2/2018 at 4:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, there is some kind of magical bond between a dragon and its rider. I've no problem with Aegon II (sub)consciously calling his mount Sunfyre to Dragonstone. They had a bond.

So if this is a case, why can't a bonded dragon be controlled on a ship?

[Loose Bolt]

Another case of weird logistics is that lord of Bear Island is able to sell 2 men to slavers. That island is very poor and middle of nowhere, so any kind of of trade should be very limited and almost certainly done by local petty traders using either their longboats or fishing boats not by any major traders from Free cities. So cost of transporting those 2 men to place they could be (re-)sold should be higher than any price one could get from just 2 average men.

Or I suspect that any slaver who would want to make profit of selling slaves from north western Westeros would have to somehow find at lest hundreds slaves to sell during his trip.

 

[Lord Varys]

On 3.4.2018 at 5:59 PM, John Suburbs said:

So my guess is that the best we can hope for is that dragons are magical creatures doing magical things in a magical world.

Oh, I don't care how (or if) dragons can fly. But how dragonriders and their dragons get from point A to point B (both historically and in the future) is part of the mechanics of the story that will also be addressed in the story.

On 4.4.2018 at 7:58 AM, dmc515 said:

Ok, in terms of the Viserys', this again is because they did not desire another dragon.  I think this is very plausible in both instances.  Same thing with Rhaena, really - as long as you mean Lady Rhaena, right?  She was a child, and eventually bonded with Morning, who died well after the end of the Dance.  If we want to wonder why Targs didn't bond with riderless dragons after the Dance, that's a fair question, but I think deserves it's own line of questioning that would be distinctly different from this thread.

Well, the Quicksilver thing seems to be a dragon actively seeking out another rider. It would have been the dragon making the choice to search out Aegon. If he did that, why couldn't, say, Silverwing try to search out Viserys I, or Seasmoke Lady Rhaena?

They could always reject those dragons, of course (at least presumably).

On 4.4.2018 at 7:58 AM, dmc515 said:

As for why Hugh et al. had to search them out - again, because all the relevant Targs did not desire the riderless dragons.  Maybe I'm missing somebody, but who would've that was over the age of, like, 8 at the time?  We have the one instance of Prince Aegon and Quicksilver.  The latter presumably knew the former quite well.  Whereas none of the riders had any familiarity with Hugh, Ulf, or Addam.  This aspect seems pretty clear to me.

Sure, but Aemond also lacked a dragon until the age of ten. Viserys I did, Rhaena, Viserys II, Maelor, etc. And the dragons on Dragonstone certainly should have been able to feel that Dragonstonians like Hugh, Ulf, and Nettles were potential dragonriders.

On 4.4.2018 at 7:58 AM, dmc515 said:

I agree that it would be odd not to give a dragon egg to Aenys' heir - although I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the bolded.  Maybe they never hatched?  Maybe they did and Aegon and/or the dragons never accepted the bond?  And, maybe, Aenys wanted his heir to inherit his dragon either before or after such things transpired.  Who knows?

Maegor wasn't given eggs, he was offered hatchlings, just as Aenys got a living dragon hatchling, not an egg. The egg thing apparently started later.

And we do know that eight dragons hatched during the years Aenys' children were born and grew up - six dragons during the latter half of Aegon I, and two dragons in 37 AC after King Aenys had made Maegor his Hand. Dreamfyre, Vermithor, and Silverwing are only three - leaving five other dragons for Aegon and Viserys to pick.

On 4.4.2018 at 7:58 AM, dmc515 said:

If Maegor made it apparent he had designs on Balerion, I think it'd be prudent of Prince Aegon NOT to try to acquire the dragon.

Well, Aegon was the new king's heir. And if Aegon had been faster it would have been his dragon, never mind what Maegor thought about that.

On 4.4.2018 at 7:58 AM, dmc515 said:

Again, this is a leap of faith on my part.  I do think it's quite possible she did realize what Belwas' sickness meant (as most heads of state would, especially one as paranoid about betrayal as Dany) and she just doesn't have the time to mention it.  But that's just me.

Are there any indications that she thinks stuff like that in her last chapter? All I recall right now is that she doesn't think Hizdahr betrayed her - and if she thought the locusts were poisoned she should also have concluded (or at least consider the possibility) that her dear husband tried to kill her.

On 4.4.2018 at 7:58 AM, dmc515 said:

So if this is a case, why can't a bonded dragon be controlled on a ship?

Because I don't think it works on such a conscious level. Calling a dragon to you - or even directing it mentally to attack someone or something you hate or despise - isn't the same league as preventing it from controlling its normal bodily functions.

[The Wondering Wolf]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Are there any indications that she thinks stuff like that in her last chapter? All I recall right now is that she doesn't think Hizdahr betrayed her - and if she thought the locusts were poisoned she should also have concluded (or at least consider the possibility) that her dear husband tried to kill her.

She found herself thinking of Meereen, of Daario, her love, and Hizdahr, her husband, of Irri and Jhiqui and sweet Missandei, Ser Barristan and Reznak and Skahaz Shavepate. Do they fear me dead? I flew off on a dragon's back. Will they think he ate me? She wondered if Hizdahr was still king. His crown had come from her, could he hold it in her absence? He wanted Drogon dead. I heard him. "Kill it," he screamed, "kill the beast," and the look upon his face was lustful. And Strong Belwas had been on his knees, heaving and shuddering. Poison. It had to be poison. The honeyed locusts. Hizdahr urged them on me, but Belwas ate them all. She had made Hizdahr her king, taken him into her bed, opened the fighting pits for him, he had no reason to want her dead. Yet who else could it have been? Reznak, her perfumed seneschal? The Yunkai'i? The Sons of the Harpy?

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

She found herself thinking of Meereen, of Daario, her love, and Hizdahr, her husband, of Irri and Jhiqui and sweet Missandei, Ser Barristan and Reznak and Skahaz Shavepate. Do they fear me dead? I flew off on a dragon's back. Will they think he ate me? She wondered if Hizdahr was still king. His crown had come from her, could he hold it in her absence? He wanted Drogon dead. I heard him. "Kill it," he screamed, "kill the beast," and the look upon his face was lustful. And Strong Belwas had been on his knees, heaving and shuddering. Poison. It had to be poison. The honeyed locusts. Hizdahr urged them on me, but Belwas ate them all. She had made Hizdahr her king, taken him into her bed, opened the fighting pits for him, he had no reason to want her dead. Yet who else could it have been? Reznak, her perfumed seneschal? The Yunkai'i? The Sons of the Harpy?

Oh, okay, I forgot that one. Still, she doesn't think it was Hizdahr. But she doesn't think he had been the target of the poison, either. Perhaps she'll find out in the end. Or Hizdahr will be long dead by the time she returns.

[rotting sea cow]

On 4/2/2018 at 10:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

I think it is then and there in the chapter where he first flies with Dany out of the Pit.

You mean this?

"Daenerys Targaryen vaulted onto the dragon's back, seized the spear, and ripped it out. The point was half-melted, the iron red-hot, glowing. She flung it aside. Drogon twisted under her, his muscles rippling as he gathered his strength. The air was thick with sand. Dany could not see, she could not breathe, she could not think. The black wings cracked like thunder, and suddenly the scarlet sands were falling away beneath her"

mmmmmm. You may be reading too much. Remember Drogon is larger than the other two and Quentyn though he could ride any of them. Quent is not a large man, but certainly bigger than Dany.

On 4/2/2018 at 10:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Quote

Well, it seems you are destroying the whole purpose of the existence of dragons in the narrative. If they are neutralized by severe weather, it may well be that the Others will win.

Well, perhaps the Others can cook up snowstorms, blizzard, and hailstorms at will. But I sure as hell don't think the dragons just have to fly in and save the day. Or rather: This might not be all that easy under any circumstances.

The idea that dragons of much use in a snowstorms - never mind whether there are Others out there or not - doesn't strike me as particularly likely.

They have to be useful, otherwise humanity is doomed. The whole purpose of the dragons is being the superweapon against the Others.

On 4/2/2018 at 10:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Quote

He may be in the way or not. We have very limited perspective about him, maybe he is just waiting for more news. The stepstones are an excellent place to await for the next movements and he won't be dead until he uses his dromons, Anyway, I lean towards him joining Aegon but being a Valeryon, he may know a little bit more about Targaryens and dragons.

Well, if he wanted to join Dany the thing to do would be to bring those ships to her, no? Hanging out at the Stepstones isn't going to get him to her, especially not if she doesn't go west. The people who want to join Daenerys went to her - or at least seriously considered going to her.

Aurane sailed well after the Ironborn invasion of the Reach, meaning that Victarion was well in his way when Aurane took his ships. Certainly, he learned of the mighty fleet of Volantis (300-500 ships) sailing against her. He may well think it was too late. 

As I said before. The most probable outcome is he joins Aegon, because of the geographical proximity but his dromons are a Chekov gun here to be used at some point, not that he would be killed off-screen and never learn what happened.

The reason why I still consider him as a possible Dany's ally is the century old connection between Valeryons and Targaryens and the need that someone commands her fleet. No, it won't be some Essosi captain we never heard off, it won't be anyone aboard the Volantene ships. The captains of these ships are slavers, the sailors are slaves. The later can man the ships but not guide them to battle. So, it must be someone who we have met already and they are not too many competent seamen in the story

- Aurane? see above, also he's not fleshed out enough for that role, but still a possibility

- Victarion? Nah, the guy is a toast, literally. 

- Davos? Only possible after the burning of Shireen and that will likely happening late in the story.

- Salladhor Saan? Maybe, but the guy seems to be more inclined to recover from his loses than get involved in another adventure with uncertain gain.

- Theon & Asha? I'm mostly inclined by this option (not only because the show), mainly because the Iron Fleet at Meeren is supposed to spearhead Dany's fleet and they won't follow a non-ironborn captain. Also, it reinforces their future role as political foes of Euron. The problem are the logistics, they are far away, prisoners of Stannis. Escaping to Torrhen square is hard and anyway it will lead them to Euron controlled waters. Sailing from White Harbors is only possible with Stannis consent, unlikely but not impossible.

 

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

You mean this?

"Daenerys Targaryen vaulted onto the dragon's back, seized the spear, and ripped it out. The point was half-melted, the iron red-hot, glowing. She flung it aside. Drogon twisted under her, his muscles rippling as he gathered his strength. The air was thick with sand. Dany could not see, she could not breathe, she could not think. The black wings cracked like thunder, and suddenly the scarlet sands were falling away beneath her"

mmmmmm. You may be reading too much. Remember Drogon is larger than the other two and Quentyn though he could ride any of them. Quent is not a large man, but certainly bigger than Dany.

Where does he say he can actually fly any of the two dragons? He thinks he can claim one of them, but that isn't the same, presumably. Quentyn wants to steal and imprison the two dragons, he has no plans to mount and fly any of them immediately.

21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

They have to be useful, otherwise humanity is doomed. The whole purpose of the dragons is being the superweapon against the Others.

A strong weapon, sure. But no super weapon. This isn't a series for super weapons. The Others won't go away just because their wights (and some of their fellows) burn.

The idea that the dragonriders fly in and save the day was always a pretty big stretch.

21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Aurane sailed well after the Ironborn invasion of the Reach, meaning that Victarion was well in his way when Aurane took his ships. Certainly, he learned of the mighty fleet of Volantis (300-500 ships) sailing against her. He may well think it was too late.

Well, then why did he run away with those ships and set himself up as a pirate lord? There was a power vacuum in KL, a chance to seize power, not one to run away? I really don't think this guy has any plan, really.

21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

As I said before. The most probable outcome is he joins Aegon, because of the geographical proximity but his dromons are a Chekov gun here to be used at some point, not that he would be killed off-screen and never learn what happened.

They might just be a distraction. A stupid idea of Cersei's that depleted the treasury even more, and resulted in more fraction and chaos. There is no reason to believe those ships have to play a great role. They could, of course, but they are not that many, anyway.

21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

- Aurane? see above, also he's not fleshed out enough for that role, but still a possibility

Since he isn't there I'd say that is not going to happen. They will choose some admirals in Slaver's Bay, not in the Stepstones...

21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

- Victarion? Nah, the guy is a toast, literally. 

He might be, but there are many Ironborn captains with him, no? Men who are there, men who might be willing to serve Dany's cause now that they have seen the dragons, etc.

21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

- Davos? Only possible after the burning of Shireen and that will likely happening late in the story.

Definitely not.

21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

- Salladhor Saan? Maybe, but the guy seems to be more inclined to recover from his loses than get involved in another adventure with uncertain gain.

Definitely not.

21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

- Theon & Asha? I'm mostly inclined by this option (not only because the show), mainly because the Iron Fleet at Meeren is supposed to spearhead Dany's fleet and they won't follow a non-ironborn captain. Also, it reinforces their future role as political foes of Euron. The problem are the logistics, they are far away, prisoners of Stannis. Escaping to Torrhen square is hard and anyway it will lead them to Euron controlled waters. Sailing from White Harbors is only possible with Stannis consent, unlikely but not impossible.

Only if krakens can fly.

I see no reason why not some dude could do the job. Tyrion, say. Or Moqorro. Or some yet to be introduced Volantene slave generals/admirals. The tiger soldiers may have their own slave officers for all we know, with the Triarchs and their staff only serving as the supreme command. Volantene society is completely dependent on slavery.