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aventador577

lightbringer is not necessary

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My problem with lightbringer and the theories around it, is that the sword is not necessary to kill white walkers. We have dragonglass, that can kill them and in A Feast for Crows it's implyed that Valyrian steel can kill them too.
And it makes sence, if you look at the timeline. The last long night was more than 8000 years ago. Then you pass forward 3000 years and you get the Valyrian Freehold. They develop a new kind of steel: Valyrian steel.
I simply don't see the need for lightbringer, especialy because our hero Jon has already a Valyrian steel sword. And at the end of the day lightbringer is only one sword.

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Lightbringer is meant to be a metaphor, not a literal sword. Top contenders for the actual version of it are the Night’s Watch (“I am the sword in the darkness” or whatever the quote is) and Dany’s dragons (which are literally called “fire made flesh”).

Both involved the personal sacrifice of a romantic partner by their respective Azor Ahai candidates, as well as a trial-and-error process of refinement. Their value in effectively countering the Others is obvious, and given the author’s propensity for messing around with myths, seem far more likely than an actual flaming sword.

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I agree with you @aventador577 and would go a step further by saying that Azor Ahai Reborn, The Prince That Was Promised, and The Last Hero are all unnecessary as well.  I believe all the old legends and prophecies make for engaging world building, and may be key to understanding the motivations of crucial characters like Rhaegar and Melisandre, but there is no in-universe need for history to repeat itself.  It is most likely these legends aren't even accurate.

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I agree that a specific lightbringer would not be necessary, but valyrian steal covered in wildfire like Thoros used in the Melee at Kings Landing would be very useful as then you could kill wights and white walkers with the same weapon.

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2 hours ago, aventador577 said:

I simply don't see the need for lightbringer, especialy because our hero Jon has already a Valyrian steel sword. And at the end of the day lightbringer is only one sword.

Maybe we don't see the reason as of yet because humans haven't really engaged with WW so far. There was clearly a need for Lightbringer in the past, despite the fact that obsidian weapons existed (the children use them). 

And it may not just be one sword. Mel calls it the red sword of heroes, as in plural. And there's a dream where Jamie I think sees his sword taking fire, and Brienne's as well. The original Lightbringer might be able to transfer the fire to other swords, so you can have an entire army with fiery swords to strike down the others. Also, in one of Dany's visions in GoT, she is urged on to wake the dragons by people she sees as old kings. In their hands are swords made of pale fire. These could be the original heroes who defeated the WW (or may be the Yi Ti god-emperors). 

GRRM is actually both literal and metaphorical in his prophesies. They seem cryptic at first, and only makes sense in retrospect. Think about the prophesies that have come true, such as Maggy the Frog's prediction of the death of Cersei's friend, the birth of dragons, and so on. 

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2 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

but valyrian steal covered in wildfire like Thoros used in the Melee at Kings Landing

Thoros doesn't own a VS sword; he buys cheap swords from Thobo Mott's chop in Kings Landing…

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 Moo.   And these "flaming" swords predate any association with the LGTB community it's important to note.    Though one should not necessarily rule out the Knight of Flowers as a potential weilder.  His flaming combined with the flaming of the sword could create an augmented effect, a closed circuit of bodily flames to enshroud him in a protective aura of holy fire which no hetero savior has ever laid claim to heretofore. 

But, failing that, what if the significance of having Lightbringer is that no other swordsmen can see the enemy to know where to swing their sword at in the Total Darkness that will surround the Others once they're en fuego.   The sword's reliable gift of visibility may then be key to victory.  It might be what makes the wielder humanity's champion if the rest are blind-fighting.

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2 hours ago, aventador577 said:

My problem with lightbringer and the theories around it, is that the sword is not necessary to kill white walkers. We have dragonglass, that can kill them and in A Feast for Crows it's implyed that Valyrian steel can kill them too.

During first Long Night, in Essos the Others were completely annihilated. Because Azor Ahai had Lightbringer. In Westeros, were there was no Lightbringer, and the Last Hero was just an average person, not a Messiah sent by some deity, the Children didn't defeated the Others. They just managed to separate from them the most of continent, by creating The Wall, between the Land of Always Winter and the rest of Westeros.

Children had plenty of dragonglass. Nevertheless that is not an effective weapon. First of all, we don't know whether dragonglass is able to kill wights. And second - this material is very brittle. It crumbles by hitting ringmail, bones, maybe even boiled leather or furs.

And fire is also not an ultimate solution. When Mormont went on his great ranging, he knew that fire can kill wights, nevertheless their journey beyound The Wall was a total failure. And when Jon set on fire a single wight, entire tower has burned. So inside buildings, houses and castles, even inside city limits, or settlements, or fields, the fire will couse harm and ruin. Wights that burn, don't stay still, thus they will set on fire everything around them.

Also it's unlikely that Dany's dragons can distinguish living people from wights. They caught dead bodies, launched by catapults, in TWOW, and ate them. So it seems that they are not very intelligent. Also wights won't just stand in line, and wait while dragons will burn them all. Wights can scatter, and thus it will be ineffective to send dragons, to hunt and burn them. So if Dany will use dragon artillery against the Undead Army, then for the rest of long winter, people of Westeros will have to live in caves, and eat frogs, because everything else will be burned.

And there's just a few of Valyrian steel blades on Planetos, and thousands wights. So it will take forever to defeat all of them. So Valyrian steel is also not a viable solution.

4 hours ago, aventador577 said:

I simply don't see the need for lightbringer, especialy because our hero Jon has already a Valyrian steel sword. And at the end of the day lightbringer is only one sword.

Lightbringer is a magic artifact, not just a blazing sword. And wights are magic beings. They are dead bodies, but what makes them functional, is magic. Thus to defeat them en masse, some magic weapon should be used. Probably Lightbringer can be used not only for cutting and slashing, or burning with it wights. Maybe it can also emanate some sort of energy, that can eradicate evil magic from within dead bodies, and thus annihilate all wights around the wielder.

Also this legend about new Azor Ahai, and him drawing magic sword out of fire, is similar to legend about King Arthur and his Excalibur. 

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Perhaps Lightbringer was the original prototype, the very first sword made from this technique.  The  product of the technique being named Valyrian steel because as you all know, the ones in charge get to take the credit. 

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7 hours ago, aventador577 said:

My problem with lightbringer and the theories around it, is that the sword is not necessary to kill white walkers. We have dragonglass, that can kill them and in A Feast for Crows it's implyed that Valyrian steel can kill them too.
And it makes sence, if you look at the timeline. The last long night was more than 8000 years ago. Then you pass forward 3000 years and you get the Valyrian Freehold. They develop a new kind of steel: Valyrian steel.
I simply don't see the need for lightbringer, especialy because our hero Jon has already a Valyrian steel sword. And at the end of the day lightbringer is only one sword.

Yes

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7 hours ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

Lightbringer is meant to be a metaphor, not a literal sword. Top contenders for the actual version of it are the Night’s Watch (“I am the sword in the darkness” or whatever the quote is) and Dany’s dragons (which are literally called “fire made flesh”).

Both involved the personal sacrifice of a romantic partner by their respective Azor Ahai candidates, as well as a trial-and-error process of refinement. Their value in effectively countering the Others is obvious, and given the author’s propensity for messing around with myths, seem far more likely than an actual flaming sword.

Bingo. A metaphor that took shape as the story opf the long night in westeros traveled over leagues and years from west to east 

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18 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Maybe we don't see the reason as of yet because humans haven't really engaged with WW so far. There was clearly a need for Lightbringer in the past, despite the fact that obsidian weapons existed (the children use them). 

Was there? Or that's just what we've been told?

Quote

And it may not just be one sword. Mel calls it the red sword of heroes, as in plural. And there's a dream where Jamie I think sees his sword taking fire, and Brienne's as well. The original Lightbringer might be able to transfer the fire to other swords, so you can have an entire army with fiery swords to strike down the others. Also, in one of Dany's visions in GoT, she is urged on to wake the dragons by people she sees as old kings. In their hands are swords made of pale fire. These could be the original heroes who defeated the WW (or may be the Yi Ti god-emperors). 

Fiery swords would be very helpful against the wights. There's no evidence that fire does anything to the WWs.

16 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Thoros doesn't own a VS sword; he buys cheap swords from Thobo Mott's chop in Kings Landing…

Exactly.

13 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

Perhaps Lightbringer was the original prototype, the very first sword made from this technique.  The  product of the technique being named Valyrian steel because as you all know, the ones in charge get to take the credit. 

So, Valyrian Steel was invented long before Valyrians existed? Makes sense. 

13 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Bingo. A metaphor that took shape as the story opf the long night in westeros traveled over leagues and years from west to east 

:agree:

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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What we know of the first (or is it just the last previous?) Long Night are the legends, and there is a lot of focus on the Westerosi end, and the Yi Ti end, but everyone seems to forget that the Rhoynar also had their own legends of the Long Night, when the Rhoyne froze along much of its length. They too have a tale to tell about how this was ended. It didn't involve heroes or swords of any kind. It was their demigods, singing a song.

That there is one tale of such vast difference to the others suggests that the tales do not necessarily have any resemblance at all to the facts. They may all be equally erroneous.

We know that the Others were not destroyed (in Westeros) when the Long Night ended, and we also know that the CotF were not destroyed or even defeated when the long war between them and the First Men was concluded. THAT war ended with the Pact - a negotiated settlement - and I suspect that the Long Night ended in a similar way. Just as the First Men and the CotF divided the realm between them, the 'warm-blooded' and 'cold-blooded' races probably divided the territory too. With the Wall being the border between their realms. Just as the coming of the Andals overturned the Pact, and men and CotF started to fight again, I suspect that someone has broken the settlement with the Others - it might be that the CotF and giants were pushed beyond the wall, and some FM joined them there, but I'm just speculating here without evidence.

Lightbringer may just be a story after all. Melisandre is the one who keeps pushing it, as it 'proves' the presence of Azor Ahai reborn. I'm not convinced she believes the prophecy, but is willing to use it. But that is based on slim evidence, I grant, but what I take that from is her fire-vision where she sees (we believe) Bloodraven and the wolf-boy Bran, and describes them as the champions of the Great Other - just as Stannis is hers. Yes, hers, not R'hllor's, which I took as an odd way to express it.... but this is in her PoV chapter, so I think she's far more of a player than we might have hitherto thought.

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I'm not even sure that 'lightbringer' is a sword to start with.  When AA forges lightbringer in the heart of Nissa Nissa; it could very well be Nissa Nissa who is forged into lightbringer.  

Dany could fit as the 'shining one' or the one who lights the way when she takes her place among the crones of Vaes Dothrak.
 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

"Does Cersei pray to you too, my lady?" Catelyn asked the Mother. She could see the proud, cold, lovely features of the Lannister queen etched upon the wall. The crack was still there; even Cersei could weep for her children. "Each of the Seven embodies all of the Seven," Septon Osmynd had told her once. There was as much beauty in the Crone as in the Maiden, and the Mother could be fiercer than the Warrior when her children were in danger. Yes . . .

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A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

Lost and weary, Catelyn Stark gave herself over to her gods. She knelt before the Smith, who fixed things that were broken, and asked that he give her sweet Bran his protection. She went to the Maid and beseeched her to lend her courage to Arya and Sansa, to guard them in their innocence. To the Father, she prayed for justice, the strength to seek it and the wisdom to know it, and she asked the Warrior to keep Robb strong and shield him in his battles. Lastly she turned to the Crone, whose statues often showed her with a lamp in one hand. "Guide me, wise lady," she prayed. "Show me the path I must walk, and do not let me stumble in the dark places that lie ahead."

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn I

Even as she set the quill aside and asked for sealing wax, Catelyn sensed that the letter was like to be too little and too late. Maester Vyman did not believe Lord Hoster would linger long enough for a raven to reach the Eyrie and return. Though he has said much the same before . . . Tully men did not surrender easily, no matter the odds. After she entrusted the parchment to the maester's care, Catelyn went to the sept and lit a candle to the Father Above for her own father's sake, a second to the Crone, who had let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death, and a third to the Mother, for Lysa and all the children they had both lost.

 

Edited by LynnS

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Let's make it clear - no Lightbringer means no AA come again. AA is tied to Lightbringer. Using (more precise crasping, which can mean a lot of things) Lightbringer is the literal requirement AA has to do to fullfil the prophecy. 

Edited by SirArthur

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24 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Let's make it clear - no Lightbringer means no AA come again. AA is tied to Lightbringer. Using (more precise crasping, which can mean a lot of things) Lightbringer is the literal requirement AA has to do to fullfil the prophecy. 

Or could we say that AA is known for certain deeds or actions; something that will be replicated by someone else in the story.   Drogon is said to be Balerion come again but he is not literally Balerion reborn.

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Yeahhhh.     Like how darth vader killed luke's dad but also was luke's dad [spoilers for star wars].   Nissa died but also came out the other side Fire magic forged, as DanKnee now is?    Is Unburnt our champ because she's capable of riding the magic waves such as when she took what the House of Undying threw at her and gave them the fig in return.  Being magically woken and hardened may be what the hero requires to survive the waves Other enemies will generate.   That'd be an okay lightbringer.   One who can stand in the magic currents and turn them from dark intent into life- affirming light magics.

Edited by The Mother of The Others
Incredible Hardness

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not even sure that 'lightbringer' is a sword to start with.  When AA forges lightbringer in the heart of Nissa Nissa; it could very well be Nissa Nissa who is forged into lightbringer.  

Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer in sacred flames in temple. After forging it second time, he tried to complete it, by killing a lion. Nissa's heart was third attempt. Also, when AA fought agains some monster, he thrusted the sword thru that moster's belly. Thus it definitely was a sword, and not some sort of metaphor for something else.

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Let's make it clear - no Lightbringer means no AA come again. AA is tied to Lightbringer. Using (more precise crasping, which can mean a lot of things) Lightbringer is the literal requirement AA has to do to fullfil the prophecy. 

:agree:It's like drawing Excalibur from stone, made Arthur King of Britain, and drawing Lightbringer out of fire, will make Jon Snow be recognized as Azor Ahai reborn. Without legendary sword, there will be no legendary hero. GRRM himself sort of said so (ACOK, Davos I): "It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero’s blade, oh, like none that had ever been."

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7 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer in sacred flames in temple. After forging it second time, he tried to complete it, by killing a lion. Nissa's heart was third attempt. Also, when AA fought agains some monster, he thrusted the sword thru that moster's belly. Thus it definitely was a sword, and not some sort of metaphor for something else.

Or... that's what we've been told and not necessarily the facts. ;)

 

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On 3/31/2018 at 9:53 AM, aventador577 said:

My problem with lightbringer and the theories around it, is that the sword is not necessary to kill white walkers. We have dragonglass, that can kill them and in A Feast for Crows it's implyed that Valyrian steel can kill them too.
And it makes sence, if you look at the timeline. The last long night was more than 8000 years ago. Then you pass forward 3000 years and you get the Valyrian Freehold. They develop a new kind of steel: Valyrian steel.
I simply don't see the need for lightbringer, especialy because our hero Jon has already a Valyrian steel sword. And at the end of the day lightbringer is only one sword.

Lightbringer are the dragons and Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  Yes, they are necessary.  

A single sword wielded by a single man is not going to do much.  Three dragons under the mother of dragons are three potential weapons of mass destruction that would make the Others wet their frozen pants with fright.

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