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How far will Arya go to kill her enemies?

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51 minutes ago, Sigella said:

LF isnt revenge-driven, only greedy and ruthless.

Exactly!

52 minutes ago, Sigella said:

As I said before, Arya wouldnt burn a city to get at Cersei because she has empathy and a history with the commons in KL.

I will have to disagree with you here.  You and I have differing opinions when it comes to Arya.  :)

 

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I would repeat once again. Arya isn't psychopath. She still care about her family. 

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1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

I would repeat once again. Arya isn't psychopath. She still care about her family. 

Exactly.

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Posted (edited)
On March 31, 2018 at 3:19 PM, Kandrax said:

I think that she will kill guilty, but spares  innocents. She still Stark, and they don't kill someone because of last name. At least current Starks.

She will not go out of her way to kill innocents true; but if they happened to get in the way...well I don't believe she'd deviate from her plans if she thought it was the most efficient way to reach her target. She killed the insurance man. For all she he before she killed him he was completely innocent. Yet she chose to assain ate him rather than leave the FM's brotherhood. I believe as time progresses under the faceless man's tutorage she will grow more like her sister(who started off a kind girl who'd risk a beating and another round degregation from Joffery even from her POV possibly her life to save a drunken knight and who is now aiding in the murdering of a child), more indifferent to the innocent who must suffer in consequence of her pursuit of revenge and power. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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15 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

She will not go out of her way to kill innocents true; but if they happened to get in the way...well I don't believe she'd deviate from her plans if she thought it was the most efficient way to reach her target. She killed the insurance man. For all she he before she killed him he was completely innocent. Yet she chose to assain ate him rather than leave the FM's brotherhood. I believe as time progresses under the faceless man's tutorage she will grow more like her sister, more indifferent to the innocent who must suffer in consequence of Arya's pursuit of revenge and power. 

That is simply not true, she did not decide to kill the insurance man until the kindly man explained why.  He was robbing widows and orphans.  

It seems there are several of you who have invented a different Arya in your heads than the one who exists in the book.

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4 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

It seems there are several of you who have invented a different Arya in your heads than the one who exists in the book.

Agreed.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

That is simply not true, she did not decide to kill the insurance man until the kindly man explained why.  He was robbing widows and orphans.  

It seems there are several of you who have invented a different Arya in your heads than the one who exists in the book.

No, the kindly old man gave her the insurance's man's backstory after having killed the insurance man.  Arya knew nothing of the insurance man prior to her having murdered him to remain in favor with the order. She could not assertain anything that could show him deserving to be murdered by her. And she tried. She tried hard to be true but could not suceed. For all she knew the man was good man like her father or absolute scum. She didn't know but her ignorance of the man's of the moral virtues or lacking in the end did not dissaude her from fulfilling her mission. She was relieved to have learned she had killed a bad man but the kindly old man makes perfectly clear, those under the order, are not in the position to judge there targets nor do they only go after those whom Arya would consider human filth; they will the grant gift good men and courageous men like Ned Stark and monsters like Gregore cleagane. Telling her the insurance man is doing something highly immoral defeats purpose of the test.  Killing bad guys isn't what they're about. Everyone deserves the gift. If Arya could not kill "innocent" people as she could "guilty" people quite simply she'd be recognized of having no place in the order.  The insurance man had to die because it was his time. Not because he was  cheat and liar who screwed over the weak. He could have kept his word on all his dealings and participated in charity regularly; it wouldn't have made a difference as to why he must die. And the kindly old man makes clear should Arya stay she will be expected to kill the people she's assighned regardless of whether or not they've done anything in Arya Stark's eyes to deserve it.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No, the kindly old man gave her the insurance's man's backstory after having killed the insurance man.  Arya knew nothing of the insurance man prior to her having murdered him to remain in favor with the order. She could not assertain anything that could show him deserving to be murdered by her. And she tried. She tried hard to be true but could not suceed. For all she knew the man was good man like her father or absolute scum. She didn't know but her ignorance of the man's of the moral virtues or lacking in the end did not dissaude her from fulfilling her mission. She was relieved to have learned she had killed a bad man but the kindly old man makes perfectly clear, those under the order, are not in the position to judge there targets nor do they only go after those whom Arya would consider human filth; they will the grant gift good men and courageous men like Ned Stark and monsters like Gregore cleagane. Telling her the insurance man is doing something highly immoral defeats purpose of the test.  Killing bad guys isn't what they're about. Everyone deserves the gift. If Arya could not kill "innocent" people as she could "guilty" people quite simply she'd be recognized of having no place in the order.  The insurance man had to die because it was his time. Not because he was  cheat and liar who screwed over the weak. He could have kept his word on all his dealings and participated in charity regularly; it wouldn't have made a difference as to why he must die. And the kindly old man makes clear should Arya stay she will be expected to kill the people she's assighned regardless of whether or not they've done anything in Arya Stark's eyes to deserve it.

Check out the Blind Girl chapter in DwD. You are wrong, the kindly man told her BEFORE.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Check out the Blind Girl chapter in DwD. You are wrong, the kindly man told her BEFORE.

Wrong to a degree. He never really tells her the insurance man having been crooked altogether. Arya leaps to the conclusion that a client of the insurance man wants him dead off of the Kindly man's comment:

"No doubt many a captain sinking in a storm has taken some small solace in his binder back in Braavos, knowing that his widow and children will not want." A sad smile touched [the kindly man's] lips. "It is one thing to write such a binder, though, and another to make good on it."

Cat understood. One of them must hate him. One of them came to the House of Black and White and prayed for the god to take him. She wondered who it had been, but the kindly man would not tell her."It is not for you to pry into such matters," he said. (DWD tULG)"

That is all. Whether the client has a legitimate grievance she cannot know. Hell honestly there's a pretty good chance the insurance always held up his agreement; if had developed a reputation for stiffing his clients likely sailors would not entrust their coin with him; rumours of impropriety could make sailors avoid the man like a plague.  Possible, his assaination had literaly nothing to do with the man being corrupt altogether. And the next may clearly have one. They may clearly not. But the tale of him being some scoundrel preying upon widows and orphans makes it easier to qualify herself as "rightous". At this point, the kindly man has made clear the FM make no moral distinctions.  Arya has taken on the risk of having to kill innocents. 

Next time, likely she won't be so anxious for a reason for why the man or woman she's been assigned must die. Overtime she'll stop wondering altogether. She will never kill innocents for fun or go with a plan that causes more than needed casualties to succeed in her mission. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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On 3/31/2018 at 5:10 PM, Agent Orange said:

Arya is nuts.  I believe she will not hesitate to burn down an entire city to cross Cersei off her Hit List.  She is worse than Catelyn Stoneheart in some ways. 

Obviously, none of us know the answer.  But I will present the question and see what kind of opinion it gets.  How far will Arya go to kill the people on her Hit List?  If there is no other way to kill Cersei, will Arya be willing to burn down an entire city to get her revenge? 

Use all of the information at your disposal, including the sample chapters from TWOW to form your opinion.

Rank the following in order of most obsessed with revenge.  The one most obsessed with revenge being number 1 and followed by the rest in that order.

Arya, Doran, Catelyn, Oznak Zo Phal's family, Walder Frey, Littlefinger, Tyrion, Pyat Pree, Cersei, and Sandor.

IMO, Arya is willing to destroy a whole lot of innocent lives in order to exact her vengeance on the people that she believes have wronged her family.  She's very messed up.  I know she has witnessed a lot of violence, but I cannot excuse her actions because a lot of other children have witnessed violence against their loved ones and they have not taken the path of revenge like Arya has.  In all fairness, the other children who have seen their families victimized do not usually take the road to darkness like Arya has.  Allow me to admit, I am not a fan of Arya and that makes it easy for me to see her flaws.  

 

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6 hours ago, Kandrax said:

I would repeat once again. Arya isn't psychopath. She still care about her family. 

Nobody is doubting her feelings of affection for her family.  That is partly the problem.  She wants to kill everybody that she feels have wronged her family.  We're talking about a person who took the trouble to enroll in a school for murderers so she can learn how to kill.  The girl is too focused on revenge.

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

She will not go out of her way to kill innocents true; but if they happened to get in the way...well I don't believe she'd deviate from her plans if she thought it was the most efficient way to reach her target. 

I agree with you.  

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The ghost of higheart saw something in Arya that terrified her. Arya reeked of death. I think merely killing a few people who are scum even just the ones remaining on her list could have caused such a strong reaction. 

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Wrong to a degree. He never really tells her the insurance man having been crooked altogether. Arya leaps to the conclusion that a client of the insurance man wants him dead off of the Kindly man's comment:

"No doubt many a captain sinking in a storm has taken some small solace in his binder back in Braavos, knowing that his widow and children will not want." A sad smile touched [the kindly man's] lips. "It is one thing to write such a binder, though, and another to make good on it."

Cat understood. One of them must hate him. One of them came to the House of Black and White and prayed for the god to take him. She wondered who it had been, but the kindly man would not tell her."It is not for you to pry into such matters," he said. (DWD tULG)"

That is all. Whether the client has a legitimate grievance she cannot know. Hell honestly there's a pretty good chance the insurance always held up his agreement; if had developed a reputation for stuffing his clients likely sailors would not entrust their coin with him; rumours of impropriety could make sailors avoid the man like a plague. Possible, his assaination had literaly nothing to do with the man being corrupt altogether. And the next may clearly have one. They may clearly not. At this point, the kindly man has made clear the FM make no moral distinctions.  Arya has taken on the risk of having to kill innocents. 

Totally wrong, since you made a big deal of her not knowing until after.

 

And you also forget that she hasn't signed on with the FM - they tell her all the time that she isn't one of them yet - and she kept needle and killed both Dareon and Raff in spite of FM-rules. 

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28 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The ghost of higheart saw something in Arya that terrified her. Arya reeked of death. I think merely killing a few people who are scum even just the ones remaining on her list could have caused such a strong reaction. 

This is an extreme stretch. We don't know what the Ghost meant and its just as likely referring to Aryas past or the RW. By this point she has seen a great deal of awful stuff already.

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Wrong to a degree. He never really tells her the insurance man having been crooked altogether. Arya leaps to the conclusion that a client of the insurance man wants him dead off of the Kindly man's comment:

"No doubt many a captain sinking in a storm has taken some small solace in his binder back in Braavos, knowing that his widow and children will not want." A sad smile touched [the kindly man's] lips. "It is one thing to write such a binder, though, and another to make good on it."

Cat understood. One of them must hate him. One of them came to the House of Black and White and prayed for the god to take him. She wondered who it had been, but the kindly man would not tell her."It is not for you to pry into such matters," he said. (DWD tULG)"

That is all. Whether the client has a legitimate grievance she cannot know. Hell honestly there's a pretty good chance the insurance always held up his agreement; if had developed a reputation for stiffing his clients likely sailors would not entrust their coin with him; rumours of impropriety could make sailors avoid the man like a plague.  Possible, his assaination had literaly nothing to do with the man being corrupt altogether. And the next may clearly have one. They may clearly not. But the tale of him being some scoundrel preying upon widows and orphans makes it easier to qualify herself as "rightous". At this point, the kindly man has made clear the FM make no moral distinctions.  Arya has taken on the risk of having to kill innocents. 

Next time, likely she won't be so anxious for a reason for why the man or woman she's been assigned must die. Overtime she'll stop wondering altogether. She will never kill innocents for fun or go with a plan that causes more than needed casualties to succeed in her mission. 

Come on dude, just admit you got the timeline wrong.

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How far?  There.

(She'll go there.  As in, ' Oh, you did Not just go there!')

But why tear through hundreds to get to the queen when the whole point of facelessness is you can teleport past the guards and posse members to reach your target directly?

Also, is Cersei being saved for Arya specifically?    It looks like no, unless the queen is more resourceful during crunch time than she has been during this waiting period when she's been burning through the potential of this lannister dynasty, losing weeks off her life every day it seems.  I have tried to envision her lasting long enough for Arya to arrive.  It took the form of Daenerys being Arya's next target, then the two of them hitting it off, then Arya showing some Dothraki the secret way in to the red keep, etc., getting some alone time with cercei.  But you'd need to cause delays for several other players like Aegon first, because cersei appears on lots of people's to- do lists, and some of their timetables are more accelerated than Arya's.  So....a crown alliance with the Drowned fleet?    buying time, but always in a reckless fashion.   It really does appear things are winding down for the crown though.   Like KL has hanging over it one of those  "all signs point to downfall" type of 8 Ball predictions.

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Below is Arya’s list and the reasons she hates the people on that list.

A Clash of Kings - Arya VI       Arya watched and listened and polished her hates the way Gendry had once polished his horned helm. Dunsen wore those bull's horns now, and she hated him for it. She hated Polliver for Needle, and she hated old Chiswyck who thought he was funny. And Raff the Sweetling, who'd driven his spear through Lommy's throat, she hated even more. She hated Ser Amory Lorch for Yoren, and she hated Ser Meryn Trant for Syrio, the Hound for killing the butcher's boy Mycah, and Ser Ilyn and Prince Joffrey and the queen for the sake of her father and Fat Tom and Desmond and the rest, and even for Lady, Sansa's wolf. The Tickler was almost too scary to hate. At times she could almost forget he was still with them; when he was not asking questions, he was just another soldier, quieter than most, with a face like a thousand other men.         Every night Arya would say their names. "Ser Gregor," she'd whisper to her stone pillow. "Dunsen, Polliver, Chiswyck, Raff the Sweetling. The Tickler and the Hound. Ser Amory, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, King Joffrey, Queen Cersei." Back in Winterfell, Arya had prayed with her mother in the sept and with her father in the godswood, but there were no gods on the road to Harrenhal, and her names were the only prayer she cared to remember./

From that original list Arya killed two (Raff & Tickler) and had one (Chiswyck) killed by Jaqen.

Who else has she killed before arriving at the HoBaW (where she learning about poisons, potions, glamors, artifice and making death look like an accident or natural cause).

Arya killed a stable boy who going to alert the guards hunting for her; a solider blocking her escape at the Harrenhal gate. Anyone else?

Martin set Arya on the path to the HoBaW early on when Jaqen gave her the coin. Take away the religious and spiritual clap trap and the HoBaW are basically hit men (assassins). They are contract killers. They also gather information. There is speculation that they have a connection to the Iron Bank.

Why, to what end if any, did Martin send Arya to the House of Black and White? Your guess is as good as mine. I am of the opinion that if Arya had been a boy child she would be judged differently.

When she first arrived at the HoBaW she was jumpy and skittish.  When she asked what place this is she was told, “     "A place of peace." His voice was gentle. "You are safe here. This is the House of Black and White, my child. Though you are young to seek the favor of the Many-Faced God."

Let’s look at that prayer list again:

The Mountain

Dunsen

Polliver – by the Hound

Chiswyck – Jaqen by Arya’s request

Raff – Arya

Tickler --- Arya

Hound

Amory --- by bear

Illyn

Meryn Trant

Joffrey --- poison

Cersei

Her list in DwD    Ugly Little Girl     “Unbidden, her prayer came to her lips. Ser Gregor, Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling. Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei. She mouthed the names silently. In the House of Black and White, you never knew who might be listening.”

Are all of the FM trained by and associated with the HoBaW psychopaths, nuts, crazy or just Arya?

She doesn’t seem to go out of her way to whack anyone --- they are placed before her or someone else does the job. Notice, that there are no Frey’s on Arya’s list --- that’s her dead mother LSH’s job.

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14 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

lyBelow is Arya’s list and the reasons she hates the people on that list.

A Clash of Kings - Arya VI       Arya watched and listened and polished her hates the way Gendry had once polished his horned helm. Dunsen wore those bull's horns now, and she hated him for it. She hated Polliver for Needle, and she hated old Chiswyck who thought he was funny. And Raff the Sweetling, who'd driven his spear through Lommy's throat, she hated even more. She hated Ser Amory Lorch for Yoren, and she hated Ser Meryn Trant for Syrio, the Hound for killing the butcher's boy Mycah, and Ser Ilyn and Prince Joffrey and the queen for the sake of her father and Fat Tom and Desmond and the rest, and even for Lady, Sansa's wolf. The Tickler was almost too scary to hate. At times she could almost forget he was still with them; when he was not asking questions, he was just another soldier, quieter than most, with a face like a thousand other men.         Every night Arya would say their names. "Ser Gregor," she'd whisper to her stone pillow. "Dunsen, Polliver, Chiswyck, Raff the Sweetling. The Tickler and the Hound. Ser Amory, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, King Joffrey, Queen Cersei." Back in Winterfell, Arya had prayed with her mother in the sept and with her father in the godswood, but there were no gods on the road to Harrenhal, and her names were the only prayer she cared to remember./

From that original list Arya killed two (Raff & Tickler) and had one (Chiswyck) killed by Jaqen.

Who else has she killed before arriving at the HoBaW (where she learning about poisons, potions, glamors, artifice and making death look like an accident or natural cause).

Arya killed a stable boy who going to alert the guards hunting for her; a solider blocking her escape at the Harrenhal gate. Anyone else?

Martin set Arya on the path to the HoBaW early on when Jaqen gave her the coin. Take away the religious and spiritual clap trap and the HoBaW are basically hit men (assassins). They are contract killers. They also gather information. There is speculation that they have a connection to the Iron Bank.

Why, to what end if any, did Martin send Arya to the House of Black and White? Your guess is as good as mine. I am of the opinion that if Arya had been a boy child she would be judged differently.

When she first arrived at the HoBaW she was jumpy and skittish.  When she asked what place this is she was told, “     "A place of peace." His voice was gentle. "You are safe here. This is the House of Black and White, my child. Though you are young to seek the favor of the Many-Faced God."

Let’s look at that prayer list again:

The Mountain

Dunsen

Polliver – by the Hound

Chiswyck – Jaqen by Arya’s request

Raff – Arya

Tickler --- Arya

Hound

Amory --- by bear

Illyn

Meryn Trant

Joffrey --- poison

Cersei

Her list in DwD    Ugly Little Girl     “Unbidden, her prayer came to her lips. Ser Gregor, Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling. Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei. She mouthed the names silently. In the House of Black and White, you never knew who might be listening.”

Are all of the FM trained by and associated with the HoBaW psychopaths, nuts, crazy or just Arya?

She doesn’t seem to go out of her way to whack anyone --- they are placed before her or someone else does the job. Notice, that there are no Frey’s on Arya’s list --- that’s her dead mother LSH’s job.

She killed/wounded an unknown number of people defending the keep with the people bound for the NW, and could if you'd like be given credit for the 3 guards who were killed to free the northern prisoners in Harrenhall, but didn't do it directly.

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