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Free folk Daemon

Is Varys a Blackfyre?

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31 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Do we actually have any other evidence beyond the dubious word of the dead sea cow that all the male Blackfyres are dead? As things stand, who would benefit most from the tale that all male Blackfyres are dead, than living male Blackfyres who are not in a position to act? After all, even JonCon managed to play quite an important role even when he was 'dead', too...

Yandel tells us the same thing in TWoIaF. It seems to be an established fact of history.

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24 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Do we actually have any other evidence beyond the dubious word of the dead sea cow that all the male Blackfyres are dead? As things stand, who would benefit most from the tale that all male Blackfyres are dead, than living male Blackfyres who are not in a position to act? After all, even JonCon managed to play quite an important role even when he was 'dead', too...

An interesting question. 

With schemers like Illyrio and Varys potentially being in charge, I wouldn't be surprised if the old adage about "The Blackfyres being dead in the male line" was merely a bluff. 

Even if born through the female line, members of this family might be able to simply declare themselves Blackfyre - it is a rebel house after all, and with all the male-liners dying I wonder if the remaining members would have considered those born through from female descendants of the mighty Daemon I to be just as important.

Considering Maelys has now been dead for some 30 years, I'd say there has been plenty time for females to be declared Blackfyre, followed by they themselves birthing both boys and girls, continuing the line of the Black Dragon - surely keeping Daemon I' and Bittersteel's mission alive was more important to the remaining members than The Great Council of 101's rulings.

I am of the opinion that House Blackfyre has tried to mix in as much Valyrian blood as possible over the years - why wouldn't a dragon blooded house who believes themselves the rightful heirs of the Dragon Kings try their upmost to keep that blood pure? Looking Targaryen was always one of their main gimmicks.

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59 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Do we actually have any other evidence beyond the dubious word of the dead sea cow that all the male Blackfyres are dead? As things stand, who would benefit most from the tale that all male Blackfyres are dead, than living male Blackfyres who are not in a position to act? After all, even JonCon managed to play quite an important role even when he was 'dead', too...

There's also Bloodraven, and Bran, and Rickon, and Arya, and Catelyn Stoneheart. Rumors about their death were exaggerated. Everyone thought that they are dead, but they are not, at least majority of them are not, exept Cat, who is only half-alive. The point is - in the World book, there was no information, that confirmed that all sons of Daemon Blackfyre died and didn't had children, that continued their line. Blackfyre's family tree was deliberately left half unrevealed. We have zero information about Bittersteel's children, and even what were names of Daemon's sixth and seventh sons. Lots of information is still missing, so that also leaves lots of space for sudden plot twists, and unexpected reveals about Blackfyres.

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2 hours ago, Brynden Blackfyre said:

Brown?

A bastard like the self-styled brown apple of Fossaway. 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yandel tells us the same thing in TWoIaF. It seems to be an established fact of history.

An we have to trust the author in certain things, like when he has Kevan tell us that no man can question Daenerys's legitimacy. To do otherwise is crackpot. 

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10 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

An we have to trust the author in certain things, like when he has Kevan tell us that no man can question Daenerys's legitimacy. To do otherwise is crackpot. 

Well, I guess you can question Dany's legitimacy, but Kevan made it clear that no person in Martinworld will ever do that. The nut cases are in the fandom, not in Westeros ;-).

Keeping track of the Blackfyres shouldn't have been that hard. Daemon had seven sons, but three of them died childless, so there are only four Blackfyres left who may have fathered the third generation. Haegon had at least two sons, but chances are not that bad that Daemon had fewer grandsons than sons (or fewer grandchildren than children). And those Blackfyre rebellions as well as those campaigns the Golden Company fought in Essos could have easily cut down the tree further, preventing sons and grandson of Daemon (as well as sons of Bittersteel) from procreating.

2 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I am of the opinion that House Blackfyre has tried to mix in as much Valyrian blood as possible over the years - why wouldn't a dragon blooded house who believes themselves the rightful heirs of the Dragon Kings try their upmost to keep that blood pure? Looking Targaryen was always one of their main gimmicks.

I expect that we'll learn that Haegon Blackfyre married one of his sisters - his elder sister Calla likely ended up marrying Bittersteel. The Blackfyres had to continue the Targaryen tradition to keep the bloodline pure and to sell the Westerosi people that they were just as Targaryen as the sons of Daeron Falseborn. Not to mention that the incest would increase the chances that the Blackfyres kept their Valyrian looks which was also important so that they would look like royals. Some brown-haired or black-haired Blackfyre pretender wouldn't have been all that popular in Westeros. He would have looked like a common sellsword.

Daemon III Blackfyre could also have married a sister but I'm actually more inclined to believe that Bittersteel married this guy to one of his daughters by Calla.

The younger sons of Daemon Blackfyre - as well as any spare daughters he may have had - may have ended up marrying Tyroshi of noble or rich merchant families. What children - especially the daughters - from such unions did is completely unclear. Some might have ended up marrying their brothers the Targaryen way, others may have been used as coin to forge alliances.

Come to think of it - if George really wanted to surprise us with the twist of dragonriding Greyjoys (Euron, Victarion, etc.) without making Dragonbinder do the trick, there is a chance that a daughter of Bittersteel's and Calla's (or another 'Blackfyre girl') ended up marrying this Torwyn Greyjoy chap who ended up swearing a blood oath to Bittersteel and breaking it (likely during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion). If that was the case Quellon Greyjoy could have had a Blackfyre mother, which would give Euron and Victarion (and Balon's children) a strong potential to claim a dragon.

I don't think anybody came up with that possibility at this point. But since chances are not that bad that Euron ends up being that stone beast breathing shadow fire - and as such perhaps even a weird evil promised prince/savior pretender - such a plot development could actually work rather well and would figure in nicely with the overall secret blood ties thing that creeps into the story in the later novels.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I guess you can question Dany's legitimacy, but Kevan made it clear that no person in Martinworld will ever do that. The nut cases are in the fandom, not in Westeros ;-).

It's those damned lemon trees. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Keeping track of the Blackfyres shouldn't have been that hard. Daemon had seven sons, but three of them died childless, so there are only four Blackfyres left who may have fathered the third generation. Haegon had at least two sons, but chances are not that bad that Daemon had fewer grandsons than sons (or fewer grandchildren than children). And those Blackfyre rebellions as well as those campaigns the Golden Company fought in Essos could have easily cut down the tree further, preventing sons and grandson of Daemon (as well as sons of Bittersteel) from procreating.

I expect that we'll learn that Haegon Blackfyre married one of his sisters - his elder sister Calla likely ended up marrying Bittersteel. The Blackfyres had to continue the Targaryen tradition to keep the bloodline pure and to sell the Westerosi people that they were just as Targaryen as the sons of Daeron Falseborn. Not to mention that the incest would increase the chances that the Blackfyres kept their Valyrian looks which was also important so that they would look like royals. Some brown-haired or black-haired Blackfyre pretender wouldn't have been all that popular in Westeros. He would have looked like a common sellsword.

Daemon III Blackfyre could also have married a sister but I'm actually more inclined to believe that Bittersteel married this guy to one of his daughters by Calla.

The younger sons of Daemon Blackfyre - as well as any spare daughters he may have had - may have ended up marrying Tyroshi of noble or rich merchant families. What children - especially the daughters - from such unions did is completely unclear. Some might have ended up marrying their brothers the Targaryen way, others may have been used as coin to forge alliances.

Come to think of it - if George really wanted to surprise us with the twist of dragonriding Greyjoys (Euron, Victarion, etc.) without making Dragonbinder do the trick, there is a chance that a daughter of Bittersteel's and Calla's (or another 'Blackfyre girl') ended up marrying this Torwyn Greyjoy chap who ended up swearing a blood oath to Bittersteel and breaking it (likely during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion). If that was the case Quellon Greyjoy could have had a Blackfyre mother, which would give Euron and Victarion (and Balon's children) a strong potential to claim a dragon.

I don't think anybody came up with that possibility at this point. But since chances are not that bad that Euron ends up being that stone beast breathing shadow fire - and as such perhaps even a weird evil promised prince/savior pretender - such a plot development could actually work rather well and would figure in nicely with the overall secret blood ties thing that creeps into the story in the later novels.

That would be one heck of a twist. I would think it to be a bit too much of an obvious deus ex machina, no? 

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15 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It's those damned lemon trees.

Sigh. And I guess Renly's magical eyes are proof for those eye color lenses of the Myrmen and the sex-changing horses for genetic engineering.

15 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That would be one heck of a twist. I would think it to be a bit too much of an obvious deus ex machina, no? 

Perhaps. But it would fit with the general theme. We have those dragons creep into everything. 'Less than the shadow of a snake' my ass. I mean, first Aemon Targaryen, then Aegon, and the third-eyed crow as Bloodraven. Not to mention Brown Ben Plumm (and the Plumms in general), Rennifer Longwaters, Blackfyre stuff, Rhaelle Targaryen marrying Ormund Baratheon (Robert and his siblings only became/were revealed to be Aegon V's great-grandchildren in AFfC), and then this thing is even creeping into House Toland (perhaps through the Martells, perhaps through some other source).

And then there is, of course, the big snakes: the Tyrion thing and the great Jon Snow revelation. And the speculation about Varys/Illyrio and pretty much any character one can think of.

This is clearly a theme in the story. And we all realized this a long time ago.

And if the Greyjoys have some distant ties to the dragon kings then Euron's ambitions actually make more sense. Right now he just looks like a madman.

And wouldn't it be great if Euron and Aegon were cousins, killing each other, like the morons they are? And what about the weirdo name 'Aeron' which seems to have a Valyrian vibe to it? What if Quellon named this son of his after his grandmother, an Aerea Blackfyre?

Considering that the Blackfyres are dead and gone - and were never all that prestigious anyway - it wouldn't be strange that this has yet to be mentioned in the story.

Also - this whole thing could help explain Moqorro's interest in Victarion Greyjoy. Part of that is clearly Dragonbinder, of course, but it is also clear that Moqorro is interested in the Captain of the Dothraki Sea himself.

George's own strange obsession with those damned Ironborn is also strange. Why does he play up Euron Greyjoy as the big bad? Why waste time on those stupid pirates? Why did the Ironborn get the largest chapter in the Seven Kingdoms section of TWoIaF?

Could be that he just likes them for no good reason, but he really brought those pricks in very strong in AFfC/ADwD. And there has to be a narrative reason for that. Hopefully a better reason than 'I just needed some 'cool villains' with a fleet.' As of yet the Greyjoys are just that. I'm not sure that's enough to spend so many pages and POV chapters on them.

And, finally, with that whole background the idea that Euron might actually become one of Dany's consorts would be much more likely than if he was just some weird dude with freak eyes. Sure, Euron is a dialed-up version of Daario and could seduce her, etc. but if he had 'the blood of the dragon' he would become an actual suitable consort for her, in addition to any feelings she might have for him.

Not sure if the story is going there but it might.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It's those damned lemon trees. 

ONE lemon tree.

It's a tradition for a married couple to plant an evergreen tree/plant. Or to give an evergreen as a wedding present to newlyweds.

Lemon is an evergreen plant. So my guess is that when Oberyn came to Braavos, and in the presense of Sealord of Braavos, signed with Willem Darry marriage contract between Viserys and Arianne, after that, they have planted in the garden of that mansion, a lemon tree, that Oberys brought from Dorn, as a symbol of their agreement.

Edited by Megorova

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@Lord Varys

I know you proposed some Blackfyre wifes for Aegon's V sons as well (and I considered that an interesting possibilty back then), but right now I do not believe in any Blackfyre matches anymore. And even if a Blackfyre was Torwyn's wife, I think the Greyjoy line was continued by his brother Loron.

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20 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

@Lord Varys

I know you proposed some Blackfyre wifes for Aegon's V sons as well (and I considered that an interesting possibilty back then), but right now I do not believe in any Blackfyre matches anymore. And even if a Blackfyre was Torwyn's wife, I think the Greyjoy line was continued by his brother Loron.

Me neither, but it is a nice idea. The whole 'Euron is important' thing is creeping me out ;-).

Who is whose brother there is completely unclear, by the way. This is the quote:

Quote

A full account of their reigns can be found in Archmaester Haereg’s History of the Ironborn. Therein you may read of Dagon Greyjoy, the Last Reaver, whose longships harried the western coasts when Aerys I Targaryen sat the Iron Throne. Of Alton Greyjoy, the Holy Fool, who sought new lands to conquer beyond the Lonely Light. Of Torwyn Greyjoy, who swore a blood oath with Bittersteel, then betrayed him to his enemies. Of Loron Greyjoy, the Bard, and his great and tragic friendship with young Desmond Mallister, a knight of the green lands.

After that comes Quellon.

Now, we do know that Dagon is Quellon's grandfather. It is implied that the succession of the Lords Reaper of Pyke goes this way:

Dagon > Alton > Torwyn > Loron > Quellon

But this doesn't have to be the case. It is not confirmed. Nor we do know that this is a complete list. It is especially unclear whether there are other Lords of the Iron Islands between Loron and Quellon - and if so, how many? But it could easily be that Loron came before Torwyn, and Yandel just didn't put them in chronological order.

Be that as it may, it could be, say, Alton the Fool was Dagon's eldest son, who became Lord in 212-13 when Aerys I/Bloodraven finally put down Dagon, dying without issue/sons on his mad quest. Then comes Torwyn who has at least two sons by his Blackfyre wife - Loron and Quellon - and Loron is the first to rule but dies without issue (perhaps because this friendship with Desmond Mallister is a romantic friendship?) or at least without sons. And then comes his younger brother Quellon.

Now, it is also possible we have some sort of intervention of the Iron Throne there. Perhaps Torwyn is the only surviving son of Dagon's and Bloodraven has Dagon and his older brother cruelly executed to set an example, replacing Dagon with his mad uncle Alton rather than allowing Torwyn to take Pyke? After Alton's demise in the late 210s Torwyn finally takes the Iron Islands and makes a deal with Bittersteel to avenge his father, promising the support the Blackfyres in their next invasion. And then he has second thoughts after the tide turns against them.

I'd not be surprised if it was Torwyn Greyjoy who delivers Bittersteel to Aerys I at the end of the Third Rebellion...

It could also be that Asha is wrong and Dagon wasn't her grandsire's grandsire (i.e. Quellon's grandfather) but rather her great-grandfather's grandsire).

And if there is a house and an environment where the succession does not always has to be the boring father > son thing it is the Iron Islands.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

A bastard like the self-styled brown apple of Fossaway. 

ah ok

Is it the Fossaway from Dunk and Egg?

Edited by Brynden Blackfyre

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1 hour ago, Brynden Blackfyre said:

ah ok

Is it the Fossaway from Dunk and Egg?

 No. Ser Franklyn Flowers, the Bastard of Cider Hall a knight of some standing in the Golden Company. 

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i hope he isn't, i hope for all this Aegon blackfyre theories to be wrong.

as a real targaryen, no matter if really he is rhaegar's son or a grandson of Maegor or Vaella (the ones that were ignored by the great council when aegon V became king), he would be a much more interesting part in the story, same with varys

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Euron Lannister said:

i hope he isn't, i hope for all this Aegon blackfyre theories to be wrong.

as a real targaryen, no matter if really he is rhaegar's son or a grandson of Maegor or Vaella (the ones that were ignored by the great council when aegon V became king), he would be a much more interesting part in the story, same with varys

He is a Targaryen descendant. The Blackfyres are Targaryens. They just prefer the name of their sword for some silly reason. But they are Targaryens.

Edited by Lord Varys

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On 16/04/2018 at 5:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

Daemon III Blackfyre could also have married a sister but I'm actually more inclined to believe that Bittersteel married this guy to one of his daughters by Calla.

I certainly agree that Aegor would be likely to marry off a daughter of his to Daemon or one of the male heirs - for the honour of his daughter being the "Blackfyre Queen" and potentially the Queen of Westeros.

 

On 16/04/2018 at 5:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

Come to think of it - if George really wanted to surprise us with the twist of dragonriding Greyjoys (Euron, Victarion, etc.) without making Dragonbinder do the trick, there is a chance that a daughter of Bittersteel's and Calla's (or another 'Blackfyre girl') ended up marrying this Torwyn Greyjoy chap who ended up swearing a blood oath to Bittersteel and breaking it (likely during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion). If that was the case Quellon Greyjoy could have had a Blackfyre mother, which would give Euron and Victarion (and Balon's children) a strong potential to claim a dragon.

Never seen that one before, very cool idea which sounds plausible B)

We might even see some Blackfyre/Greyjoy interaction in a future Dunk and Egg novella, considering the Blackfyre importance in TSS and TMK, as well as the stories of Duncan and Aegon helping fight against Ironborn raiders - perhaps George has been hinting at some union all along.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He is a Targaryen descendant. The Blackfyres are Targaryens. They just prefer the name of their sword for some silly reason. But they are Targaryens.

i know, but a real trgaryen by name of a non bastard line would be much more interesting imo

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12 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I certainly agree that Aegor would be likely to marry off a daughter of his to Daemon or one of the male heirs - for the honour of his daughter being the "Blackfyre Queen" and potentially the Queen of Westeros.

 

Never seen that one before, very cool idea which sounds plausible B)

We might even see some Blackfyre/Greyjoy interaction in a future Dunk and Egg novella, considering the Blackfyre importance in TSS and TMK, as well as the stories of Duncan and Aegon helping fight against Ironborn raiders - perhaps George has been hinting at some union all along.

Assuming there were eligible Blackfyre bachelors that weren't killed in the first few rebellions or fighting in Essos, I wonder if the family would have preferred to keep the bloodline pure or to ally with powerful houses in the Free Cities, especially Tyrosh and Lys, as well as Myr and Pentos? 

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Assuming there were eligible Blackfyre bachelors that weren't killed in the first few rebellions or fighting in Essos, I wonder if the family would have preferred to keep the bloodline pure or to ally with powerful houses in the Free Cities, especially Tyrosh and Lys, as well as Myr and Pentos? 

I think keeping the bloodline pure would have been the first priority. That said, I always assumed the Blackfyres would have added in Valyrian-featured Free City blood a fair few times over the years. 

If Rohanne's family kept their status, I wonder how much sway the Blackfyres may have had in Tyrosh and the Free Cities?

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