UK Politics - From Russia with Love

[mankytoes]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

I believe you're referring to the seething hatred expressed for Corbyn doing exactly what the Conservatives did anyway (talking to the IRA and agreeing to a peace deal), just doing it a few years earlier? It should also be noted that whilst Corbyn advocated talking to the Irish paramilitary groups to make peace (y'know, like the Tories did a few years later and then Tony Blair sealed the deal), he wasn't suggesting giving them paying jobs in his party.

I've usually been the one defending Corbyn on this thread, but he didn't just advocate a peace deal. He was at a protest of the trial of the Brighton hotel bomber Patrick Magee. He is part of a movement on the left of British politics which is very soft on political violence in favour of things they support, mainly in Israel/Palestine and Ireland. Lets not pretend his only goal was "to make peace". We all know he had a dog in this fight. Remember, everyone wants peace- peace on their terms.

[williamjm]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-43908976 is an odd story, with some people encouraging Trump to visit Scotland rather than London on his visit. I'd never normally argue with the suggestion that Scotland was a 'superior destination', but if they think that everybody up there is going to be delighted to see him then I think they may be in for a shock. The suggestion that there are apparently no ordinary people in London but that they can only be found in the North is also silly.

[Shryke]

6 hours ago, williamjm said:

Today's example is a Tory council candidate in Cambridgeshire who posted a tweet that he was 'sweating like a Jew in an attic' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-43908496

If only I lived about a mile further to the east then I'd have been able to vote for one of his opponents.

I realise parties are maybe not going to do forensic in-depth vetting of all their local election candidates, but they could at least try to read through their twitter history.

More important is what they do once it comes out imo. You can't always vet every candidate perfectly but once you know, you can do something.

[mormont]

So the government, bless them, keep assuring us that technology will save the day, making it certain that there is absolutely no need for any of that annoying infrastructure on the Irish border. High-tech solutions! It's the 21st century! 

So how many tech firms have they consulted with on what these solutions might be, and how they might be implemented in the very short time frame available?

If you guessed 'none', have a cookie.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-department-fails-to-consult-on-technical-solutions-to-irish-border/

[Werthead]

Quote

 

Today's example is a Tory council candidate in Cambridgeshire who posted a tweet that he was 'sweating like a Jew in an attic' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-43908496

 

Owch.

 

Quote

 

I've usually been the one defending Corbyn on this thread, but he didn't just advocate a peace deal. He was at a protest of the trial of the Brighton hotel bomber Patrick Magee. He is part of a movement on the left of British politics which is very soft on political violence in favour of things they support, mainly in Israel/Palestine and Ireland. Lets not pretend his only goal was "to make peace". We all know he had a dog in this fight. Remember, everyone wants peace- peace on their terms.

 

How is that any different from the Conservatives and their buddies, the DUP, who tried to torpedo the peace process and have threatened to do so on many occasions since then? The Tories were very soft on apartheid in South Africa as well, and their current, somewhat embarrassingly fawning attitude towards Saudi Arabia is helping to enable a lot of violence going on in the Middle East.

Corbyn protesting in support of Magee was reprehensible.

[Hereward]

25 minutes ago, Werthead said:

How is that any different from the Conservatives and their buddies, the DUP, who tried to torpedo the peace process and have threatened to do so on many occasions since then? The Tories were very soft on apartheid in South Africa as well, and their current, somewhat embarrassingly fawning attitude towards Saudi Arabia is helping to enable a lot of violence going on in the Middle East.

Really? The Northern Ireland peace process was begun by John Major and the Conservative Party voted for the Good Friday Agreement in overwhelming numbers. I get that you hate Tories. You just don't to claim any old shit about them and when challenged, find some unknown nutcase and extrapolate.

[mankytoes]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

How is that any different from the Conservatives and their buddies, the DUP, who tried to torpedo the peace process and have threatened to do so on many occasions since then? The Tories were very soft on apartheid in South Africa as well, and their current, somewhat embarrassingly fawning attitude towards Saudi Arabia is helping to enable a lot of violence going on in the Middle East.

Corbyn protesting in support of Magee was reprehensible.

I don't know if you're confusing me with someone else, because that's just complete whatabourery. I have no affliction with the Tory party whatsoever, I've never even voted for them. This is what happens every time, "the Tories the Tories the Tories". These people are defending people who will kill civilians indiscriminately. This is the worst of false dichotomies- it's absurd to claim that because someone is concerned about Corbyn defending terrorists, they are supportive of the Tories attitude in South Africa. If anything, it's more likely that someone would oppose both, on the grounds of basic morality and defence of human decency.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Owch.

 

How is that any different from the Conservatives and their buddies, the DUP, who tried to torpedo the peace process and have threatened to do so on many occasions since then? The Tories were very soft on apartheid in South Africa as well, and their current, somewhat embarrassingly fawning attitude towards Saudi Arabia is helping to enable a lot of violence going on in the Middle East.

Corbyn protesting in support of Magee was reprehensible.

I don't think the Conservatives have ever sought to torpedo the GFA.  However...

1 hour ago, Hereward said:

Really? The Northern Ireland peace process was begun by John Major and the Conservative Party voted for the Good Friday Agreement in overwhelming numbers. I get that you hate Tories. You just don't to claim any old shit about them and when challenged, find some unknown nutcase and extrapolate.

Personally, I consider that there is much to dislike about the GFA and its outworking,  It destroyed the UUP and SDLP, and strengthened the hard-liners; Tony Blair went behind everybody's backs to give Comfort Letters to terrorists who were on the run ; and while we're all supposed to forgive and forget atrocities committed by Republican and loyalist terrorists, there is endless litigation directed at people who served in the security services.

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, Hereward said:

Really? The Northern Ireland peace process was begun by John Major and the Conservative Party voted for the Good Friday Agreement in overwhelming numbers. I get that you hate Tories. You just don't to claim any old shit about them and when challenged, find some unknown nutcase and extrapolate.

Aha. The "and their" remained in place after an edit (I was listing the Tories support for various reprehensible causes and moved it to the second paragraph). That should have read "Tories' buddies, the DUP".

I have made that point very numerous times that John Major and the Conservative Party started the Northern Ireland Peace Process and its successful conclusion under the subsequent Labour administration was a result of that work. I don't think anyone denies that. The DUP, however, did not vote for the Good Friday Agreement at all and have frequently derided it and taken advantage of the current situation to suggest it be reworked to their advantage.

That said, Daniel Hannan has declared the GFA to be a failed measure and clearly believes that if it comes down to Brexit or the GFA, the GFA should go (which is a bit weird, as nuking the GFA is far more likely to get peopled killed). Is Mr. Hannon not a member of the Conservative Party? And numerous other Tories, like Mogg, have made it clear that they also value Brexit over GFA and have massively undersold the problems with the GFA caused by Brexit. This is irresponsible and playing with peoples' lives.

And hate Tories? Certainly the ones who have plunged this country into its greatest political crisis since Suez for no real particular reason at a moment of both economic and political crisis for the world (during which time decimating our police and military also appeared to be a good move for some reason), and also took advantage of the financial crisis to impose austerity on this country for ideological reasons despite the hardship and deaths it would cause which could have been avoided if they'd merely enforced proper taxation rules (that's on New Labour beforehand for not doing it either). Moderate and centrist Tories who exist in the real world I have some time for. Unfortunately they're in very short supply these days.

Didn't I once say that John Major was emerging as the best Prime Minister of my lifetime? I have a feeling I did.

 

Quote

 

Personally, I consider that there is much to dislike about the GFA and its outworking,  It destroyed the UUP and SDLP, and strengthened the hard-liners; Tony Blair went behind everybody's backs to give Comfort Letters to terrorists who were on the run ; and while we're all supposed to forgive and forget atrocities committed by Republican and loyalist terrorists, there is endless litigation directed at people who served in the security services.

•  

These are all reasonable points. However, all such agreements are compromises, sometimes very brutal ones, with people you hate. That's why they call it making peace. Blair's comfort letter thing was unnecessary, though, and the litigation against the security services is a more complex issue. If innocent people were killed, should their families have the right to investigation and justice or is it all chalked up as part of a messy, horrible war and you draw a line under it and move on? There isn't an easy answer to that. I don't believe it was a war in any way, shape or form (the IRA represented a then-demographic minority trying to enforce their will on the majority through terror and bloodshed), but to some extent it has been recognised as one as part of a sop to the peace process.

[Werthead]

Amber Rudd has resigned. Wasn't expecting that, I thought she was going to tough it out.

Now the speculation on who her replacement will be can begin.

[polishgenius]

23 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Amber Rudd has resigned. Wasn't expecting that, I thought she was going to tough it out.

May will have given her a little push, on the basis that she'll hopefully draw attention away from it being May's mess from the start. She'll have been promised something, though it's kinda hard to imagine what at this point that Rudd has any hope of cashing in on.

[williamjm]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Amber Rudd has resigned. Wasn't expecting that, I thought she was going to tough it out.

I think if she'd got her story straight to begin with then she'd probably have survived, but there kept being new revelations.

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

She'll have been promised something, though it's kinda hard to imagine what at this point that Rudd has any hope of cashing in on.

Given her wafer thin majority at the last election, she might want to focus on her constituency - although I suppose if May did want to offer Rudd a carrot then a move to a safe seat could be welcome.

I imagine May will still want to keep her friendly, Rudd seems to have a reputation as being one of the cabinet's biggest advocates for softening Brexit so she could potentially cause trouble on the backbenches if she wanted to.

[mormont]

10 hours ago, polishgenius said:

May will have given her a little push, on the basis that she'll hopefully draw attention away from it being May's mess from the start. She'll have been promised something, though it's kinda hard to imagine what at this point that Rudd has any hope of cashing in on.

I don't think so, because I think May is desperate to avoid anyone resigning for anything at this point. 

If you're right, though, Rudd will have been promised she can come back in a year. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

My take aways.

1. There are still sackable offenses in the May goverment. Johnson made me question that.

2. Would Johnson have resigned/been forced out if he were in Rudd's position.

3. A silly observation from sincerely yours. It seems effectively enforcing desired Tory policies (as shown by Rudd) is worse than total incompetence (as displayed by Johnson).

 

[Maltaran]

30 minutes ago, Notone said:

My take aways.

1. There are still sackable offenses in the May goverment. Johnson made me question that.

2. Would Johnson have resigned/been forced out if he were in Rudd's position.

3. A silly observation from sincerely yours. It seems effectively enforcing desired Tory policies (as shown by Rudd) is worse than total incompetence (as displayed by Johnson).

 

It wasn’t the policy that forced her out, it was the cover up.

Does anyone have an opinion on Javid?

[mormont]

2 hours ago, Notone said:

My take aways.

1. There are still sackable offenses in the May goverment. Johnson made me question that.

2. Would Johnson have resigned/been forced out if he were in Rudd's position.

The answer to the second is 'hell no', which suggests that the answer to the first is 'this is a resignation, not a sacking'. 

[Werthead]

Yeah, I think the consensus is that May does not have enough capital to force anyone to leave against their will. Rudd appears to have looked at the paperwork that had slipped past the department and realised it would be impossible to spin, so she's taken one for the team to shore up her reputation with the Party for future purposes.

The current rumour is that Boris actually wants to force some kind of confrontation so he can resign with honour (from his POV) and then mount a stirring defence of Brexit from the backbenches (taking Rees-Mogg's current role) whilst not having to take any responsibility for it. So far May has not indulged him, which depending on your POV is smart or irresponsible, as it leaves a muppet in control of the Foreign Office.

[mormont]

The English council elections seem to be an apt summary of the state of modern UK politics in that it appears that, against normal electoral logic, every party lost.

[The BlackBear]

So UKIP continue to slide into irrelevance, that can only be a good thing.

[mormont]

Don't worry. The next time Farage belches, the mainstream press will still be there to report what it sounded like.