Could Rhaegar have fought for the other side?

[Bael's Bastard]

 

One thing that I find to be pretty messed up for the whole R/L “romance” is that he fought for the man that murdered her father and brother, and fought against her other brother while she was locked up in a tower in Dorne. And unless I’m mistaken, Rhaegar had been thinking of overthrowing Aerys hadn’t he, and of course he would have known that his father was an awful king who liked to burn people alive, if he was good as people say wouldn’t he want to spare his people of this?? So my question is would he have been able to join the forces on the other side of Robert’s Rebellion? Ned and Robert would probably not like that very much but I can’t inagine anybody else having a problem with it, especially since it would create more stability to have the next in line on the throne instead of Robert who never even wanted it. Would they have accepted him as their leader? 

Whatever the nature of his relationship with Lyanna Stark, Rhaegar belonged to House Targaryen, and was the son and heir of King Aerys II Targaryen. I think he might have hoped to gain support from the lords of the realm to restrict Aerys's powers, and to rule in his name, but I don't get the impression he would have at any point led or joined others in war against his father. And once the chain of actions, including his own, and reactions, especially those of his king/father, made war inevitable, he had little choice but to fight on the side of his king/father/house, not that he would've been welcome on the side of the rebels anyways.

[Bael's Bastard]

 

In OTL son vs father happened. Top of mind - Mughals? The A-name guy?

IMO the lack of such events in ASOIAF canon does not mean a thing - "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" and all that ... we are shown only snippets of Westeros' multi-thousand year history.

We need only look to the period of less than three hundred years of Targaryen rule in Westeros, which have been fleshed out plenty enough that we can be reasonably sure no Targaryen heir ever openly went to war against his father the king. Nor do we have any indication that Rhaegar ever entertained leading or joining war against his king/father Aerys.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 3:37 PM, cpg2016 said:

We have no freakin clue if those love potions work.  Like I said, you seem to have no problem assuming all sorts of fantastical or magical elements are ironclad reality while ignoring the overwhelming preponderance of textual evidence for other things.  We can reasonably infer that moon tea is a working contraceptive, because it's widely regarded as such and seems to have 100% effectiveness in Cersei's case.

But love potions?  We've never seen one to work, we know magic wasn't very powerful prior to the start of the series, why should we possibly think that Maggy's grandmother (and by the way, you have no evidence that Maegi the Frog is Sybelle's grandma) had a working magical potion?

You know what's more convincing?  Robb is in a state of physical and emotional trauma, and reaches out to a pretty girl who is in intimate contact with him already for comfort.  That's perfectly reasonable and borne out by actual human experiences.  And after, he's infatuated with her, and it goes from there.

None of the quotes you provided are any evidence that Robb is angry at Jeyne.  She's a new wife (and a teenager!) who is trying to do her best by the man she married, who she barely knows or understands (and we know there are significant cultural differences between North and South).

Given the massive strains Robb is under, it isn't surprising he is angry.  But he is constantly positive in his regard for Jeyne, even in private, with the mother he knows disapproves of his action.  Why lie to Catelyn, of all people?

Jeyne makes him smile, and I have nothing to share with him but grief. He seemed to enjoy the company of his bride's brothers, as well; young Rollam his squire and Ser Raynald his standard-bearer. They are standing in the boots of those he's lost, Catelyn realized when she watched them together. Rollam has taken Bran's place, and Raynald is part Theon and part Jon Snow. Only with the Westerlings did she see Robb smile, or hear him laugh like the boy he was. To the others he was always the King in the North, head bowed beneath the weight of the crown even when his brows were bare.

Cat doesn't say "Jeyne makes him horny" or "he must smile when with her."  Robb takes public joy in the presence of his wife, and his wife's family no less, that he doesn't express at any other time.  Your conflating two unrelated phenomenon; that Robb is angry and upset about the political and personal misfortunes he's had in the war, and the fact that Jeyne wants to make him feel better.

Oh, and because you very deliberately cut out important contextual evidence in your quote, let me complete it for you:

Robb bid farewell to his young queen thrice. Once in the godswood before the heart tree, in sight of gods and men. The second time beneath the portcullis, where Jeyne sent him forth with a long embrace and a longer kiss. And finally an hour beyond the Tumblestone, when the girl came galloping up on a well-lathered horse to plead with her young king to take her along.

 

Robb was touched by that, Catelyn saw, but abashed as well. The day was damp and grey, a drizzle had begun to fall, and the last thing he wanted was to call a halt to his march so he could stand in the wet and console a tearful young wife in front of half his army. He speaks her gently, she thought as she watched them together, but there is anger underneath.

Robb says goodbye twice, once in a meaningful religious/cultural setting.  And Robb wouldn't be touched by the gesture of his wife not wanting him to leave if he didn't care for her.  Yeah, he's pissed she's coming out, because he's a teenager and he is being forced into an awkward spot in front of his entire army and all his political supporters.  He's abashed - that turns pretty easily to anger in a teenager.  If he didn't care for her, he wouldn't be gentle and he wouldn't be touched.

Moreover, Jeyne is very clearly still in love with Robb.

"It was mine." Jeyne sobbed. "You had no right. Robb had it made for me. I loved him."

Again, it takes some real contortion of logic to assume that Sybelle is still pumping her daughter full of love potion.  To what end?  And if Jeyne was genuinely in love with Robb, then doesn't it make far more sense that Robb genuinely cared for Jeyne?  As I'll say below, why does it serve the narrative or the thematic elements of the story to have it be a love potion?  It adds nothing.  Part of what ties Robb and Ned, and leads to both of their downfall, is supposed to be their unyielding honor.  Or their attempt at it.  It makes the entire story more potent to have Robb genuinely care for Jeyne, and have that be one of the roots of his downfall, than it does to have it be a cheap trick on the part of Sybelle.  That part is achieved by having her secretly dope her daughter with contraceptives.  Why even have Jeyne in the story, in that case?  Why not have him be seduced by some other person?

Yes, and those things that turned out to be false have narrative or thematic purpose.  You believe everything is suspect except what you want to be true, and the only dividing line between your absolute skepticism and your blind faith seems to be whatever position you've taken.  I believe that certain things hold true from our world to the books (such as human nature) and that GRRM is writing a series with thematic and narrative arcs, and that if something looks like a duck (bears a resemblance to how actual humans behave) and squawks like a duck (has a reason for being in the story), then it's most likely a  duck.  You seem to accept random things, like the existence of effective love potions, as beyond skepticism, and consider that to be a stronger explanation for why Robb became infatuated with Jeyne than the much simpler explanation that he was vulnerable in many senses and she took pity on him (the Florence Nightingale Effect).

Sorry friend, you're reaching on all of this.

MtF was the real deal. She predicted Cersei's future marriage, children, and most likely her death, and she nailed Melara's death and who would cause it. No reason to think her love potions would be bogus. She wouldn't have a reputation for providing them if she was a fraud.

Jeyne may very well be still in love with Robb, and Robb may very well still be in love with her, but the fire is clearly gone. The texts makes clear that she can no longer provide the loving support he so desperately needs, no matter how hard she tries. You're seeing what you want to see here when all the clues in the text point to what really happened: the love potion administered by Sybelle that drove Robb to break his promise to the Freys has worn off and he now realizes what a huge mistake he made for a love that he no longer feels, no matter how much he may still care for her.

All of this did have a thematic purpose: it was all part of Tywin's plan to undermine Robb's political alliances to ultimately destroy him. You may think it was just good fortune that he and Jeyne hooked up, but I take the more realistic view: he and Sybelle plotted the whole thing -- from start to finish.

[cpg2016]

On 5/14/2018 at 11:46 AM, John Suburbs said:

Sorry friend, you're reaching on all of this.

MtF was the real deal. She predicted Cersei's future marriage, children, and most likely her death, and she nailed Melara's death and who would cause it. No reason to think her love potions would be bogus. She wouldn't have a reputation for providing them if she was a fraud.

But Maggy the Frog isn't making the new love potions.  Again, this is another example of you taking whatever the hell you want to be true, and asserting it is.  Whereas you are an absolute skeptic on anything else.  Rhaegar accosts Lyanna with a bunch of armed men, and then Lyanna is stuck in a tower on the far side of the continent with an armed guard to keep her there, where she dies.  You say that all of that is suspect, and that we cannot ascribe any facts or even motivations to the characters involved, and yet the fact that Maggy the Frog was capable of predicting Cersei's future is ironclad evidence that her granddaughter is capable of making working love potions?  I'm not even saying that isn't possible.  But your standards for what you accept and what you don't are downright stupid.

On 5/14/2018 at 11:46 AM, John Suburbs said:

Jeyne may very well be still in love with Robb, and Robb may very well still be in love with her, but the fire is clearly gone. The texts makes clear that she can no longer provide the loving support he so desperately needs, no matter how hard she tries

Show me that text.  Here is what I see.  Robb and Jeyne are having sex, at least once a day and often more.  He is only happy when he's with her and her family.  He's genuinely upset to be leaving her, and touched when she reciprocates the feeling, even in an inappropriate setting.  After his death, Jeyne is completely inconsolable.

This goes to my above point; a love potion is a certainty, but the fact that the text repeatedly says that Robb and Jeyne love each other, and that this continues after Robb dies and any chance of Jeyne being drugged is gone, is meaningless or inconclusive?  Besides which, you don't have any fucking clue what their relationship was like pre-Riverrun.  None at all.  But somehow you just know that the fire is gone?  It's laughable.  You are absolutely devoid of any logical consistency.  Either get off this absurd high horse about side-eyeing all the evidence hinted at in the text, or stop asserting positions for which you have no evidence at all.  You're sitting there telling me that we can't make any assumptions about, say, Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship, because we don't have any evidence, and simultaneously telling me that Robb and Jeyne have lost the passion in their relationship despite having even less information about their relationship before coming to Riverrun.

On 5/14/2018 at 11:46 AM, John Suburbs said:

All of this did have a thematic purpose: it was all part of Tywin's plan to undermine Robb's political alliances to ultimately destroy him. You may think it was just good fortune that he and Jeyne hooked up, but I take the more realistic view: he and Sybelle plotted the whole thing -- from start to finish.

Um, I don't think that at all?  Stop putting words in my mouth just because you are incapable of keeping a consistent and logical position (a sure sign of someone who doesn't understand the text).  Sybell absolutely conspires with Tywin, and absolutely throws Jeyne at Robb.  She knows nothing about Robb, to her mind, putting a pretty girl in front of him while he's vulnerable might lead to something.  Once it does, Sybell can play both sides.

You aren't taking an more "realistic" view, because w'ere told all this.  We know Sybell encourages Jeyne to nurse Robb (not "Sybell gives her daughter potions to make her better at nursing Robb).  We know she gets in touch with Tywin the moment the Crag falls.  We know she gives Jeyne contraceptives for months.  All of this is attested to in the text, so saying that you have some "realistic" view is stupid; we all know this, it isn't any kind of revelation.

You know what the text doesn't say?  That Jeyne doses Robb with a love potion.  We don't even get a hint that it's happened, unlike with the abortifacients, which are clearly called out in the text when Jeyne mentions that her mother is giving her drugs every morning.  That is called a textual hint.  Why in all the world would GRRM be careful to hint at that, and not at the love potion?  You are, as most idiots on here do, over-egging the pudding.  Not everyone is a person in disguise.  Not everything has to have a sinister or mysterious motive.  Two attractive teenagers sleeping together while in a vulnerable mental and physical state?  That's perfectly legitimate and obvious and doesn't need another explanation.  It undermines the story.  Robb makes a bad decision after receiving the emotional blow that his brothers have died, and then refuses to abandon the woman he made that decision with.  That makes FAR more sense to his story than him being poisoned so he'd sleep with Jeyne, and has more narrative resonance than "Robb is a perfect king who literally never makes a single mistake despite being like 16 years old, and loses the war due wholly to factors outside his control".  The whole plot to bring about his downfall is covered with Sybell dosing Jeyne.  You don't need another conspiracy, you already have one right there!  There is no thematic purpose to the love potion, because the abortifacient plot is already covering it.

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

But Maggy the Frog isn't making the new love potions.  Again, this is another example of you taking whatever the hell you want to be true, and asserting it is.  Whereas you are an absolute skeptic on anything else.  Rhaegar accosts Lyanna with a bunch of armed men, and then Lyanna is stuck in a tower on the far side of the continent with an armed guard to keep her there, where she dies.  You say that all of that is suspect, and that we cannot ascribe any facts or even motivations to the characters involved, and yet the fact that Maggy the Frog was capable of predicting Cersei's future is ironclad evidence that her granddaughter is capable of making working love potions?  I'm not even saying that isn't possible.  But your standards for what you accept and what you don't are downright stupid.

Show me that text.  Here is what I see.  Robb and Jeyne are having sex, at least once a day and often more.  He is only happy when he's with her and her family.  He's genuinely upset to be leaving her, and touched when she reciprocates the feeling, even in an inappropriate setting.  After his death, Jeyne is completely inconsolable.

This goes to my above point; a love potion is a certainty, but the fact that the text repeatedly says that Robb and Jeyne love each other, and that this continues after Robb dies and any chance of Jeyne being drugged is gone, is meaningless or inconclusive?  Besides which, you don't have any fucking clue what their relationship was like pre-Riverrun.  None at all.  But somehow you just know that the fire is gone?  It's laughable.  You are absolutely devoid of any logical consistency.  Either get off this absurd high horse about side-eyeing all the evidence hinted at in the text, or stop asserting positions for which you have no evidence at all.  You're sitting there telling me that we can't make any assumptions about, say, Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship, because we don't have any evidence, and simultaneously telling me that Robb and Jeyne have lost the passion in their relationship despite having even less information about their relationship before coming to Riverrun.

Um, I don't think that at all?  Stop putting words in my mouth just because you are incapable of keeping a consistent and logical position (a sure sign of someone who doesn't understand the text).  Sybell absolutely conspires with Tywin, and absolutely throws Jeyne at Robb.  She knows nothing about Robb, to her mind, putting a pretty girl in front of him while he's vulnerable might lead to something.  Once it does, Sybell can play both sides.

You aren't taking an more "realistic" view, because w'ere told all this.  We know Sybell encourages Jeyne to nurse Robb (not "Sybell gives her daughter potions to make her better at nursing Robb).  We know she gets in touch with Tywin the moment the Crag falls.  We know she gives Jeyne contraceptives for months.  All of this is attested to in the text, so saying that you have some "realistic" view is stupid; we all know this, it isn't any kind of revelation.

You know what the text doesn't say?  That Jeyne doses Robb with a love potion.  We don't even get a hint that it's happened, unlike with the abortifacients, which are clearly called out in the text when Jeyne mentions that her mother is giving her drugs every morning.  That is called a textual hint.  Why in all the world would GRRM be careful to hint at that, and not at the love potion?  You are, as most idiots on here do, over-egging the pudding.  Not everyone is a person in disguise.  Not everything has to have a sinister or mysterious motive.  Two attractive teenagers sleeping together while in a vulnerable mental and physical state?  That's perfectly legitimate and obvious and doesn't need another explanation.  It undermines the story.  Robb makes a bad decision after receiving the emotional blow that his brothers have died, and then refuses to abandon the woman he made that decision with.  That makes FAR more sense to his story than him being poisoned so he'd sleep with Jeyne, and has more narrative resonance than "Robb is a perfect king who literally never makes a single mistake despite being like 16 years old, and loses the war due wholly to factors outside his control".  The whole plot to bring about his downfall is covered with Sybell dosing Jeyne.  You don't need another conspiracy, you already have one right there!  There is no thematic purpose to the love potion, because the abortifacient plot is already covering it.

Maggy didn't make Robb's LP. Sybelle made it. Jeyne did not does him. Sybelle did. I think you are the one asserting your assumptions as unvarnished truth and rejecting all else, no matter how much evidence exists in the text. Believe what you want, but you opinions are naïve. I'm sure Robb's true love for Jeyne will be how the singers tell the tale, but as a wise man once said: "Never believe anything you hear in a song." The whole thing was a set-up from start to finish: drug Robb and get him to break with the Freys.

In the Robb-Jeyne scenario, everything fits. Robb is not foolish enough to throw away his kingdom for a fairly plain girl from a minor house. Tywin Lannister is crafty enough to orchestrate this plan. Sybelle is devious enough carry it out... With the Rhaegar-kidnap scenario, nothing fits: Rhaegar was not the kidnapping type, particularly if he was driven by pure lust. The KG should not have been at the ToJ while the king and crown prince were under threat. There is a whole lot more to this story than we've been told, and that includes who took Lyanna and why.

Settle down, dude. It's not that big of a deal.