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By Odin's Beard

Norse Mythology and ASOIAF

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10 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Euron has the Red and Black all-seeing-eye of malice as his sigil, he is the Crow's Eye, He has a black stone in his eye socket.  He is the Bloodstone Emperor returned.

 

9 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I also don't have any recollection of Euron having a black stone in his eye socket.  He has heterochromia which means that his eyes are two different colours - one blue, one dark. 

 

7 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Euron is an insane sorcerer pirate, and you are suggesting he is just ashamed of his weird colored eye and that's why he wears an eyepatch?  If that eye worked, why would he wear an eyepatch?  And what is with the nightmare vision where he reveals the blood eye and he is a Bloodstone Emperor-style god-killing sorcerer tyrant?

"white leather eye patch that reminded Theon of his uncle Euron. He'd wanted to rip it off Umber's face, to make certain that underneath was only an empty socket, not a black eye shining with malice "

"He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible "

 

blood eye, dark and terrible, and black eye shining with malice--red and black eye, just like on his sigil.  Bloodstone is black and red.  A "dark and terrible eye shining with malice" sounds like more than just heterochromia.  Sounds evil and magical and ominous to me.

The crow's eye, which "can espy death from afar" and he mentions the flying dream he had when he was a child--which for Bran involved the 3-eyed-crow and opening your third eye, although Euron doesn't mention the 3-eyed-crow, he calls himself the Crow's Eye.

 

I didn't say anything about him being ashamed of his eye.  I believe that he can see with both eyes but I can't prove it.  My take on it is that something about that left eye is so terrible, the one described in Aeron's chapter in Winds as the blood eye, now dark and terrible, the one described in Theon's chapter in winds as a black eye shining with malice, so terrible that it must be covered during casual and civil discourse.  But I think he can see out of both eyes, generally concealing the dark terrible malicious one but switching and covering the smiling eye that is a blue as a summer sky when he wants to get up in peoples face and really fuck some shit up. 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Because the direwolves are the acting extent of the owner. They react based on the emotions of their respective Stark child. Jon very plainly says he was confused and couldn't understand how he could mix up Mel for Ygritte and then he sees through her glamour.

 

Jon touched Ghost, Ghost detected "someone who smelled warm as a summer day"--(was that how Ygritte smelled?  he just said that he loved the way Ygritte smelled, never said what that smell was)

Jon turned and thought he saw his recently deceased lover Ygritte.  Then quickly realized it was Melisandre--he recoils and was disturbed that he thought Mel was Ygritte.  Given how quickly he realized it was her even in the dark, I don't think there was any glamor at work.

After it is clear that she is not Ygritte, Ghost goes to her and is very friendly.  Jon's last emotion was the recoil from Mel, why did Ghost not recoil?  Why did he instead go and lick her hand?  Then look at Jon as though he were a stranger?  Ghost was never this way with Ygritte that we know of.  And Jon thinks it is queer also.

Ghost has a psychic bond with Jon, Jon does not like Mel, Jon knows that this is Mel and not Ygritte, therefore Ghost knows this is Mel and not Ygritte.

There is no textual evidence that Ghost was ever that friendly with Ygritte, Ghost slept between Jon and Ygritte, and that was the most they ever interacted.

Given that it was night, and he turned around quickly and for an instant thought one red-haired woman, was actually a much more familiar red-haired woman.  That is very scant evidence for a glamor.  And glamors don't fool animals.

Therefore, there is another reason Ghost likes Melisandre, other than an alleged Ygritte glamor.

 

 

4 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:
  7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

ADWD/ Jon VI- Ch 28: In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.

When he turned he saw Ygritte.

...Surprise made him recoil from her. "Lady Melisandre." He took a step backwards. "I mistook you for someone else." At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte.

..."Ghost." Melisandre made the word a song. (song, as in spell like MMD says)

...The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too

... At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others.

 

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5 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

 

Jon touched Ghost, Ghost detected "someone who smelled warm as a summer day"--(was that how Ygritte smelled?  he just said that he loved the way Ygritte smelled, never said what that smell was)

Jon turned and thought he saw his recently deceased lover Ygritte.  Then quickly realized it was Melisandre--he recoils and was disturbed that he thought Mel was Ygritte.  Given how quickly he realized it was her even in the dark, I don't think there was any glamor at work.

After it is clear that she is not Ygritte, Ghost goes to her and is very friendly.  Jon's last emotion was the recoil from Mel, why did Ghost not recoil?  Why did he instead go and lick her hand?  Then look at Jon as though he were a stranger?  Ghost was never this way with Ygritte that we know of.  And Jon thinks it is queer also.

Ghost has a psychic bond with Jon, Jon does not like Mel, Jon knows that this is Mel and not Ygritte, therefore Ghost knows this is Mel and not Ygritte.

There is no textual evidence that Ghost was ever that friendly with Ygritte, Ghost slept between Jon and Ygritte, and that was the most they ever interacted.

There was magic involved in this scene. Reality means nothing. 

5 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Given that it was night, and he turned around quickly and for an instant thought one red-haired woman, was actually a much more familiar red-haired woman.  That is very scant evidence for a glamor.  And glamors don't fool animals.

Therefore, there is another reason Ghost likes Melisandre, other than an alleged Ygritte glamor.

 

 

 

Honest question here. You reject the idea that Melisandre is using glamours or spells, even though text proof was given, but you propose that the weirwood is a comet and there are spaceships covering large areas of “Planetos”, and one of those spaceships is Sandor Clegane? 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is a not the same thing. This is a parallel of power, which makes sense in this story.

Look again...

The very first chapter about the cold:

Quote

It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold.

And Sam being attacked by Wight Small Paul:

Quote

He's going to rip my head off, Sam thought in despair. His throat felt frozen, his lungs on fire.

The Temple of The Lord of Light:

Quote

the Temple of the Lord of Light loomed like Aegon's High Hill. A hundred hues of red, yellow, gold, and orange met and melded in the temple walls, dissolving one into the other like clouds at sunset. Its slender towers twisted ever upward, frozen flames dancing as they reached for the sky. Fire turned to stone.

A Priest of the Lord of Light:

Quote

The fires that had charred him still danced across his cheeks and forehead, where his eyes peered out from amongst a mask of frozen flames. Slave tattoos, the captain knew. Marks of evil.

And of course in summary:

Quote

 

"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.
"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."
"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

 

And the Children are the Singers of the Earth, they can speak to the elemental powers around them, be they of fire or ice.

Quote

Fire consumes trees. Fire is fickle, you never know which way the wind will make it change direction. Once it is done consuming the wood it will look elsewhere to maintain its life.

Fire is hungry, not so sure about fickle... is there a reason you used that expression? Are he winds of winter fickle do you think?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

"I beg you in the name of the Mother," Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king's shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword . . .
"Cold," said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat.
 
We know that Melisandre and Stannis have to have sex to create these soul sucking shadow babies. Sex is heat. The shadow babies are birthed in heat. Renly's cold is the cold of death when it hurts to breathe, as it is described in ADWD.

 

And so can you explain the cold shadow being born from flames?

Besides Mel’s very confused explanation, and we suspect she is less than trustworthy, especially when it comes to world views... Fires don’t cause shadows, that’s preposterous, as in fundamentally not understanding that shadows are caused by something blocking the light, it’s not that you need fire to have shadows, without light all is in shadow. It’s another oversimplified metaphor/worldview by Mel, like that the everything is part of some duality conflict... life isn’t black and white, be like Davos, have doubt.

Quote

Because the direwolves are the acting extent of the owner. They react based on the emotions of their respective Stark child. Jon very plainly says he was confused and couldn't understand how he could mix up Mel for Ygritte and then he sees through her glamour. And what I quoted above shows that Mel was using magic here, as well as playing on Jon's emotions which were taught because he also just heard his sister was possibly alive.

I think this is just wrong... the dire wolves are more than just an extension of their Stark.

Grey Wind correctly sniffs our the Westerling plot without Rob knowing anything... and Ghost found the horn and obsidian on his own. Summer distrusts Jojen talking about dreams, and Nymeria drags Cat from the river.

It’s like how Bran can control Hodor (except they aren’t human), it’s not that Hodor doesn’t have a will of his own, it’s just that Bran takes control. The Varamyr chapter seems to imply that without care multiple consciousnesses might merge, or  that a conscious takes on some of the traits of a body it controls over time... it’s unclear.

Quote

Close to Bran, but not the same. Daenerys and Bran have a HUGE amount of parallels in the story. These two are going to be the ones to duke it out one way or another.

I disagree with this prediction, but that’s ok... there are a lot of parallels between the two, which makes sense, but it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t examine these parallels and assume they are on a collision course.

Quote

I am not one for the idea that the weirwoods and the CotF are the evil doers. There is nothing I have seen in this story that paints them as being all bad. Maybe they messed up in the past, but they know what is coming now and nothing unites a people like having death show up on your shores.

First, Children are not people...

People are the death on the Children’s doorstep. 

Quote

There were other wolves for her to play with, we heard them howling, and Jory said the woods were full of game, so she'd have deer to hunt.

But of course Nymeria hunts men...

Quote

Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us.

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

I would suggest that human sacrifice is bad. And the Others are the Children’s wroth and bloody vengeance, since the singers of the earth speak the old tongue, which I believe is understood by elements like Others and Dragons.

But even I’m not suggesting all bad, like men I expect they can be good or evil based on their choices and that circumstances can push them either way. The Children/Green Men I expect have kept the Pact and are likely still on the side of men. Those hiding in Bloodraven’s Lair in the Heart of Winter I doubt have good intentions for the realms of men.

 

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Honest question here. You reject the idea that Melisandre is using glamours or spells, even though text proof was given,

Only in this particular instance, other times, she definitely used them.  She did glamor Mance/Rattleshirt.  And she might always be glamoring herself to look young and attractive.  And I think you are right that some other entity is acting through her.  I think this particular scene was supposed to make us think there was something odd going on between Mel and Ghost, and kissed-by-fire people in general.  That Ghost, a known weirwood avatar was similar to, and drawn to Melisandre, that Ghost's honest appraisal of Mel was that she smelled nice and was a nice lady.  Mel is a known liar, and charlatan, and misinterprets visions, and believes child sacrifice is acceptable, why should anyone believe her opinions about what god is acting through her?  Given her setup as a character, wouldn't it make more sense if it wasn't R'hllor?

One thought I missed last night is the way that Ghost first approached Mel was not the way he would approach a familiar friend.  He went over cautiously, sniffed around, then decided she was a nice lady.  If she was a long lost friend Ghost would have greeted her the same way he greets Jon.

 

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

but you propose that the weirwood is a comet and there are spaceships covering large areas of “Planetos”, and one of those spaceships is Sandor Clegane? 

The more stuff of George's I read, the less odd those ideas get.  He is a madman.  Nightflyers is one of the craziest stories ever printed.  The volcryn was a psi-creature that drifts through space that causes mayhem and warfare where-ever it goes because of the negative psychic energy that it radiates--like my proposed Weirwood comet (which I came up with before knowing about the volcryn).

The magical mayhem that is starting has nothing to do with broken pacts, and has everything to do with the return of the Red Comet (which is a regularly occurring event every 5,000-8,000 years?)  Ragnarok was a regularly scheduled event.
 

Quote

" You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald." (they knew when the comet would return, and that the Others would return when the comet did)

"They say the red comet is a herald of a new age. A messenger from the gods."

" The maester did not believe in omens. And yet ... old as he was, Cressen had never seen a comet half so bright, nor yet that color, that terrible color, the color of blood and flame and sunsets." (it is not a regular comet)

" In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger. They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow "

" He jabbed his bony finger back at comet and castle. "There comes the Harbinger! Cleanse yourselves, the gods cry out, lest ye be cleansed! Bathe in the wine of righteousness, or you shall be bathed in fire! Fire!"

" That thing's not crimson. Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That's blood up there, child, smeared across the sky "

"These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits."

 

To be clear, Sandor has not gotten here yet, and won't until it is too late for him to prevent Ragnarok.  But what is the Great Empire of the Dawn and the God-on-Earth but someone like Haviland Tuf showing up (alone) to Earth with his magical spaceship and trying to set up an ideal civilization, only for it to go horribly wrong, and he has to come back at the end and tell the humans he is sorry for trying to play god.

Tell me what your idea of the Stranger is.  Both the weirwood and the 7th wanderer are called the Stranger, because they are both alien presences in our system.

 

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

Those are some very good quote pulls you gathered.  I'll add these:

Quote
"A grey man," she said. "Neither white nor black, but partaking of both. Is that what you are, Ser Davos?"
"What if I am? It seems to me that most men are grey."
"If half of an onion is black with rot, it is a rotten onion. A man is good, or he is evil."
Quote

Black and white and grey, all the shades of truth.

Mel's Manichean good vs. evil worldview is wrong, Davos one of the few decent characters, is grey. 

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16 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

The seven planets are:

1: Mercury is Warrior

2: Venus morningstar is the Maiden

3: Venus evenstar is the Mother

4:Mars is the Smith (red wanderer) (Ares)

5:Jupiter is the Father (Jupiter)

6:Saturn is the Crone (Cronus)

7:The Stranger

Ok so I’m not saying there are no astronomical literary connections here, I just don’t expect a spaceship reveal... and  if I did, I’d expect that men showed up on the ship and the Weirwoods were already on Planetos, simply from the history alone this seems to fit better.

But back to the planets there are some issues with the above...

There are nine planets, you seemed to selectively use 6 of them... why? Do you assume Planetos has the same solar system as Earth?

Why is Mercury the warrior and not Mars... this seems counter intuitive.

Saturn is Jupiter’s Father... a man, and not quite the same as the Greek Cronus (or Chronos, the embodiment of time). Saturn was a much more of a positive deity in Roman Mythology, God of the Harvest, and even made it into our Week, Saturday. He is related to the cyclical nature of time for sure, but I don’t see much of the knowledge or lantern lighting the way we get from the crone.

And you didn’t mention Uranus, Saturn’s father either. He’s also a planet.

And wouldn’t Pluto make a better stranger? Death, the farthest from the sun... 

I’m really struggling to see what you were going for with that list... And didn’t follow the Stranger horse bit.

There is a red comet, but comets don’t crash into planets... so not sure where the meteor came from? Starfall? The morning star - dawn? Or what this has to do with Bran...

I love the Skoll and Hati reference, but I think I see it differently, they are the brood of Fenrir (Bran is bound to the ground by Jaime who loses his hand like Tyr). Although in some instances Fenrir is said to swallow the sun... I think I see the parallel for these two in the wolves who chase Sansa and Arya:

Quote

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

Skoll chases the Sun. Skoll means treachery, Sansa betrayed her family and Lady dies for it.

Hati chases the moon. Hati means he who hates, see the quote above, and is also said to eat the dead. And this seems to fit Arya’s list and Nymeria’s hunting men with her pack of wolves.

And finally just because I like the quote and I know GRRM liked him some Tolkien too:

My brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me! A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship. But it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the age of Men comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you stand! Men of the West!

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Look again...

The very first chapter about the cold:

And Sam being attacked by Wight Small Paul:

The Temple of The Lord of Light:

A Priest of the Lord of Light:

And of course in summary:

And the Children are the Singers of the Earth, they can speak to the elemental powers around them, be they of fire or ice.

Fire is hungry, not so sure about fickle... is there a reason you used that expression? Are he winds of winter fickle do you think?

Yes, I used the 'fickle fire' expression to keep in tone with the books. Melisandre is another fickle fire. She looks out for herself first, so if she senses a threat, the direction of her flames with move another way.

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion V

"—did a splendid job, I have no doubt." Tyrion placed the jar he'd been holding back among its fellows. They covered the table, standing in orderly rows of four and marching away into the subterranean dimness. And there were other tables beyond, many other tables. "These, ah, fruits of the late King Aerys, can they still be used?"
"Oh, yes, most certainly . . . but carefully, my lord, ever so carefully. As it ages, the substance grows ever more, hmmmm, fickle, let us say. Any flame will set it afire. Any spark. Too much heat and jars will blaze up of their own accord. It is not wise to let them sit in sunlight, even for a short time. Once the fire begins within, the heat causes the substance to expand violently, and the jars shortly fly to pieces. If other jars should happen to be stored in the same vicinity, those go up as well, and so—"

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion XIII

The furnace wind lifted his crimson cloak and beat at his bare face, yet he could not turn away. He was dimly aware of the gold cloaks cheering from the hoardings. He had no voice to join them. It was a half victory. It will not be enough.
He saw another of the hulks he'd stuffed full of King Aerys's fickle fruits engulfed by the hungry flames. A fountain of burning jade rose from the river, the blast so bright he had to shield his eyes. Plumes of fire thirty and forty feet high danced upon the waters, crackling and hissing. For a few moments they washed out the screams. There were hundreds in the water, drowning or burning or doing a little of both.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. "If she knew, she would have taken the boy away from us. Dalla's boy, not your monster. A word in the king's ear would have been the end of it." And of me. Stannis would have taken it for treason. "Why let it happen if she knew?"
"Because it suited her. Fire is a fickle thing. No one knows which way a flame will go." Val put a foot into a stirrup, swung her leg over her horse's back, and looked down from the saddle. "Do you remember what my sister told you?"
"Yes." A sword without a hilt, with no safe way to hold it. But Melisandre had the right of it. Even a sword without a hilt is better than an empty hand when foes are all around you.
10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And so can you explain the cold shadow being born from flames?

Renly feels the cold of death and the "hurts to breath" thingy as the shadow knife pierces his throat. It is still born of fire.

I have this Renly chapter open now (ACOK/ Cat 4), and as Catelyn approaches Renly's silk tent, she notices the candle flames inside the tent and how it is creating a green (fire)light. I never noticed all of this description before, but hey. And it is "pleasently warm" inside the tent with its many braziers burning.

10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Besides Mel’s very confused explanation, and we suspect she is less than trustworthy, especially when it comes to world views... Fires don’t cause shadows, that’s preposterous, as in fundamentally not understanding that shadows are caused by something blocking the light, it’s not that you need fire to have shadows, without light all is in shadow. It’s another oversimplified metaphor/worldview by Mel, like that the everything is part of some duality conflict... life isn’t black and white, be like Davos, have doubt.

I agree that Mel is rather an oversimplified thinker. No doubts from me that her shadow&light talk sounds like double speak. But at the risk of getting unnecessarily tedious in describing the science of shadows, Mel is drawing on Ygritte's "shadow" (different type of shadow) in this scene, at this location. By night all cloaks are grey is said in this scene (as opposed to being black as mentioned by other people elsewhere), and this links to shadows.

Even here is the dark cave, a light blooms before the shadow is birthed.

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

A thousand flickering campfires burned around the castle, as the fires of the Tyrells and Redwynes had sixteen years before. But all the rest was different.
The last time it was life I brought to Storm's End, shaped to look like onions. This time it is death, in the shape of Melisandre of Asshai.
...
There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness.
Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone.
Panting, she squatted and spread her legs. Blood ran down her thighs, black as ink. Her cry might have been agony or ecstasy or both. And Davos saw the crown of the child's head push its way out of her. Two arms wriggled free, grasping, black fingers coiling around Melisandre's straining thighs, pushing, until the whole of the shadow slid out into the world and rose taller than Davos, tall as the tunnel, towering above the boat. He had only an instant to look at it before it was gone, twisting between the bars of the portcullis and racing across the surface of the water, but that instant was long enough.

Actually, I take back this "all cloaks are black" thing... well, I am adjusting it as I read it now in full. In the same Cat 4 chapter with Renly's shade, Cat makes a mention of how everyone's cloaks look grey. This could be another fire/shadow link? This seems to also happen when Jon was so confused when Mel was glamouring as Ygritte.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

Catelyn rose stiffly. Her knees ached, and she would have given much for a featherbed and a pillow just then. "Thank you, ser. I am ready."
They rode in silence through sparse woodland where the trees leaned drunkenly away from the sea. The nervous whinny of horses and the clank of steel guided them back to Renly's camp. The long ranks of man and horse were armored in darkness, as black as if the Smith had hammered night itself into steel. There were banners to her right, banners to her left, and rank on rank of banners before her, but in the predawn gloom, neither colors nor sigils could be discerned. A grey army, Catelyn thought. Grey men on grey horses beneath grey banners. As they sat their horses waiting, Renly's shadow knights pointed their lances upward, so she rode through a forest of tall naked trees, bereft of leaves and life. Where Storm's End stood was only a deeper darkness, a wall of black through which no stars could shine, but she could see torches moving across the fields where Lord Stannis had made his camp.
The candles within Renly's pavilion made the shimmering silken walls seem to glow, transforming the great tent into a magical castle alive with emerald light. Two of the Rainbow Guard stood sentry at the door to the royal pavilion. The green light shone strangely against the purple plums of Ser Parmen's surcoat, and gave a sickly hue to the sunflowers that covered every inch of Ser Emmon's enameled yellow plate. Long silken plumes flew from their helms, and rainbow cloaks draped their shoulders.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

"Lord Snow." The voice was Melisandre's.
Surprise made him recoil from her. "Lady Melisandre." He took a step backwards. "I mistook you for someone else." At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red.
10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I think this is just wrong... the dire wolves are more than just an extension of their Stark.

They were sent by the gods to guide them, if only the Stark kids knew how to listen to them. The Stark children were never allowed to believe that things like skinchanging was a real, current talent that they were possibly subject to. This prevented them from harnessing that power. I don't think you and I are that far apart in believing this.

Probably similar in some ways to Dany and her dragons, they needed her specifically to hatch them, and Drogon reacts as Dany does to her emotions.

10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Grey Wind correctly sniffs our the Westerling plot without Rob knowing anything

And Grey Wind reacts negatively towards Cat, reflecting Robb's internal emotions, when Cat and Robb have that discussion about the will and Cat calls Jon untrustworthy (or whatever). And oddly enough, Robb also ignores Cat's warning that he should keep Grey Wind by his side when he meets with the Freys. Grey Wind was locked outside and Robb missed or ignored the warnings as Cat hears GW howling like mad. The last thing Robb said was the name Grey Wind, which for wargs implies that Robb 'went to' Grey Wind.

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII

"Jeyne?" Robb grabbed the edge of the table and forced himself to stand. "Mother," he said, "Grey Wind . . ."
"Go to him. Now. Robb, walk out of here."
Lord Walder snorted. "And why would I let him do that?"
10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 

... and Ghost found the horn and obsidian on his own.

True. Or Ghost was guided there and then Ghost knew (somehow) that Jon must be shown this stash. Ghost leads Jon to the Cache by acting a bit out of character for the wolf (per Jon's descriptions)

A Clash of Kings - Jon IV

 

He found Ghost lapping from the stream. "Ghost," he called, "to me. Now." When the direwolf raised his head, his eyes glowed red and baleful, and water streamed down from his jaws like slaver. There was something fierce and terrible about him in that instant. And then he was off, bounding past Jon, racing through the trees. "Ghost, no, stay," he shouted, but the wolf paid no heed. The lean white shape was swallowed by the dark, and Jon had only two choices—to climb the hill again, alone, or to follow.
He followed, angry, holding the torch out low so he could see the rocks that threatened to trip him with every step, the thick roots that seemed to grab at his feet, the holes where a man could twist an ankle. Every few feet he called again for Ghost, but the night wind was swirling amongst the trees and it drank the words. This is madness, he thought as he plunged deeper into the trees.
He was about to turn back when he glimpsed a flash of white off ahead and to the right, back toward the hill. He jogged after it, cursing under his breath.A quarter way around the Fist he chased the wolf before he lost him again. Finally he stopped to catch his breath amidst the scrub, thorns, and tumbled rocks at the base of the hill. Beyond the torchlight, the dark pressed close.
A soft scrabbling noise made him turn. Jon moved toward the sound, stepping carefully among boulders and thornbushes. Behind a fallen tree, he came on Ghost again. The direwolf was digging furiously, kicking up dirt.

"What have you found?" Jon lowered the torch, revealing a rounded mound of soft earth. A grave, he thought. But whose?

He knelt, jammed the torch into the ground beside him. The soil was loose, sandy. Jon pulled it out by the fistful. There were no stones, no roots. Whatever was here had been put here recently. Two feet down, his fingers touched cloth. He had been expecting a corpse, fearing a corpse, but this was something else. He pushed against the fabric and felt small, hard shapes beneath, unyielding. There was no smell, no sign of graveworms. Ghost backed off and sat on his haunches, watching.
Jon brushed the loose soil away to reveal a rounded bundle perhaps two feet across. He jammed his fingers down around the edges and worked it loose. When he pulled it free, whatever was inside shifted and clinked. Treasure, he thought, but the shapes were wrong to be coins, and the sound was wrong for metal.
10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Summer distrusts Jojen talking about dreams,

Because Bran hates the reality he is gong to have to face. Bran, at first, is caught between what Luwin teaches him and what he is discovering on his own about the old gods, old races, etc. Bran loves scary stories, but he is conflicted when presented with the reality of them. Summer reacts to others as Bran does. Jojen "little grandfather" is the first and only one to help Bran realize what he is, and in Bran 5/ACOK, you read about Bran rejecting the idea at first.

A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

"Stop it!" Bran shouted. Summer slid toward the weirwood, his white teeth bared.
Jojen Reed took no mind. "When I touched Summer, I felt you in him. Just as you are in him now."
"You couldn't have. I was in bed. I was sleeping."
...
A low rumbling growl rose from Summer's throat, and there was no play in it. He stalked forward, all teeth and hot eyes. Meera stepped between the wolf and her brother, spear in hand. "Keep him back, Bran."
"Jojen is making him angry."
"It's your anger, Bran," her brother said. "Your fear."

A Clash of Kings - Bran V

Bran looked at him, his eyes wide. "What?"
"Warg. Shapechanger. Beastling. That is what they will call you, if they should ever hear of your wolf dreams."
The names made him afraid again. "Who will call me?"
...
"I don't want it. I want to be a knight."
"A knight is what you want. A warg is what you are. You can't change that, Bran, you can't deny it or push it away. You are the winged wolf, but you will never fly." Jojen got up and walked to the window. "Unless you open your eye." He put two fingers together and poked Bran in the forehead, hard.
When he raised his hand to the spot, Bran felt only the smooth unbroken skin. There was no eye, not even a closed one. "How can I open it if it's not there?"
10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

and Nymeria drags Cat from the river.

Yes, a wolf with a fish in its mouth. Arya was actively warging in to Nymeria at the time.

10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It’s like how Bran can control Hodor (except they aren’t human), it’s not that Hodor doesn’t have a will of his own, it’s just that Bran takes control. The Varamyr chapter seems to imply that without care multiple consciousnesses might merge, or  that a conscious takes on some of the traits of a body it controls over time... it’s unclear.

I disagree with this prediction, but that’s ok... there are a lot of parallels between the two, which makes sense, but it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t examine these parallels and assume they are on a collision course.

First, Children are not people...

People are the death on the Children’s doorstep. 

I would suggest that human sacrifice is bad.

But even I’m not suggesting all bad, like men I expect they can be good or evil based on their choices and that circumstances can push them either way. The Children/Green Men I expect have kept the Pact and are likely still on the side of men. Those hiding in Bloodraven’s Lair in the Heart of Winter I doubt have good intentions for the realms of men.

 

Just like choosing that cup of ice or cup of fire.

And I know you and I have very different takes on Bloodraven and the cave scenes, which is fine, but ultimately it gets us going in circles and circles, and circles.

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1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Only in this particular instance, other times, she definitely used them.  She did glamor Mance/Rattleshirt.  And she might always be glamoring herself to look young and attractive.  And I think you are right that some other entity is acting through her.  I think this particular scene was supposed to make us think there was something odd going on between Mel and Ghost, and kissed-by-fire people in general.  That Ghost, a known weirwood avatar was similar to, and drawn to Melisandre, that Ghost's honest appraisal of Mel was that she smelled nice and was a nice lady.  Mel is a known liar, and charlatan, and misinterprets visions, and believes child sacrifice is acceptable, why should anyone believe her opinions about what god is acting through her?  Given her setup as a character, wouldn't it make more sense if it wasn't R'hllor?

One thought I missed last night is the way that Ghost first approached Mel was not the way he would approach a familiar friend.  He went over cautiously, sniffed around, then decided she was a nice lady.  If she was a long lost friend Ghost would have greeted her the same way he greets Jon.

 

The more stuff of George's I read, the less odd those ideas get.  He is a madman.  Nightflyers is one of the craziest stories ever printed.  The volcryn was a psi-creature that drifts through space that causes mayhem and warfare where-ever it goes because of the negative psychic energy that it radiates--like my proposed Weirwood comet (which I came up with before knowing about the volcryn).

The magical mayhem that is starting has nothing to do with broken pacts, and has everything to do with the return of the Red Comet (which is a regularly occurring event every 5,000-8,000 years?)  Ragnarok was a regularly scheduled event.
 

 

To be clear, Sandor has not gotten here yet, and won't until it is too late for him to prevent Ragnarok.  But what is the Great Empire of the Dawn and the God-on-Earth but someone like Haviland Tuf showing up (alone) to Earth with his magical spaceship and trying to set up an ideal civilization, only for it to go horribly wrong, and he has to come back at the end and tell the humans he is sorry for trying to play god.

Tell me what your idea of the Stranger is.  Both the weirwood and the 7th wanderer are called the Stranger, because they are both alien presences in our system.

 

You have a vastly different take on this entire series than I do. I do not agree that ASOIAF is hidden Sci-Fi in anyway, mostly because I take the author's word for it. Also because of how he crafts each story of his. I have yet to see him do a bait-and-switch plot pull.

“I’ve been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that,” -GRRM

On that note, I do not want to derail your thread anymore with my differing opinions. That is a bit of a peeve of mine.

Cheers :cheers:

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12 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There are nine planets, you seemed to selectively use 6 of them... why? Do you assume Planetos has the same solar system as Earth?

Why is Mercury the warrior and not Mars... this seems counter intuitive.

Saturn is Jupiter’s Father... a man, and not quite the same as the Greek Cronus (or Chronos, the embodiment of time). Saturn was a much more of a positive deity in Roman Mythology, God of the Harvest, and even made it into our Week, Saturday. He is related to the cyclical nature of time for sure, but I don’t see much of the knowledge or lantern lighting the way we get from the crone.

And you didn’t mention Uranus, Saturn’s father either. He’s also a planet.

And wouldn’t Pluto make a better stranger? Death, the farthest from the sun... 

I’m really struggling to see what you were going for with that list... And didn’t follow the Stranger horse bit.

 

The story of the Faith of the Seven is alerting us to a foreign Black planet-like object in our solar system, that is a wanderer from far off places, and is just sort of drifting around.

Neptune, Uranus, and Pluto can only be seen with very sophisticated telescopes, which they do not possess on Planetos.  So we limit the planet count to: Mercury, 2 for Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and the Stranger. 

"the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief."  For some reason Mars is the Smith, just to show us that the parallels with Greek mythology are not exact.

 

 

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2 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

The magical mayhem that is starting has nothing to do with broken pacts, and has everything to do with the return of the Red Comet (which is a regularly occurring event every 5,000-8,000 years?)  Ragnarok was a regularly scheduled event

The comet was visible above KL when Rhaegar's son Aegon was born less than 2 decades ago. 

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19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You have a vastly different take on this entire series than I do. I do not agree that ASOIAF is hidden Sci-Fi in anyway, mostly because I take the author's word for it. Also because of how he crafts each story of his. I have yet to see him do a bait-and-switch plot pull.

“I’ve been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that,” -GRRM

On that note, I do not want to derail your thread anymore with my differing opinions. That is a bit of a peeve of mine.

Cheers :cheers:

That is not accurate, Bitterblooms takes place on a world very similar to Planetos, irregular seasons with long winters, medieval society after a collapse of civilization (and loss of spaceflight), Morgan tricks Shawn into thinking her spaceship is a magical craft.  It is sci-fi with a thin veneer of fantasy, but it is sci-fi.  It is not a bait-and-switch if the clues were there all along.  He set ASOIAF in an almost identical setting to Bitterblooms, right down to blue winter roses, and Carinhall/Harrenhal, and as you pointed out Ice Wagon/Ice Dragon, and Morgan/Melisandre, but then you refuse to believe that he also added the spaceship too?

 

 

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17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The comet was visible above KL when Rhaegar's son Aegon was born less than 2 decades ago. 

"a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet."

That was just a regular comet, that nobody freaked out over.  That was wishful thinking on Rhaegar's part that it fulfilled a prophecy.

"The maester did not believe in omens. And yet ... old as he was, Cressen had never seen a comet half so bright, nor yet that color, that terrible color, the color of blood and flame and sunsets." (it is not a regular comet)

 

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3 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

That is not accurate, Bitterblooms takes place on a world very similar to Planetos, irregular seasons with long winters, medieval society after a collapse of civilization (and loss of spaceflight), Morgan tricks Shawn into thinking her spaceship is a magical craft.  It is sci-fi with a thin veneer of fantasy, but it is sci-fi.  It is not a bait-and-switch if the clues were there all along.  He set ASOIAF in an almost identical setting to Bitterblooms, right down to blue winter roses, and Carinhall/Harrenhal, and as you pointed out Ice Wagon/Ice Dragon, and Morgan/Melisandre, but then you refuse to believe that he also added the spaceship too?

 

 

Bitterblooms takes place in the Thousand Worlds Galaxy series. That entire series covers something like 5,000 years when you line up the books according to what happened when. Therefore, ALL 25 or so of Thousand Worlds stories are Sci-Fi. That is made plainly clear, no thin veneer of anything. The interregnum happened on that planet as well just like it did on Corlos, Lilith, Prometheus, Jamison's World, etc. We are just reading different stages of recovery in each Thousand World story.

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8 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

That is not accurate, Bitterblooms takes place on a world very similar to Planetos, irregular seasons with long winters, medieval society after a collapse of civilization (and loss of spaceflight), Morgan tricks Shawn into thinking her spaceship is a magical craft.  It is sci-fi with a thin veneer of fantasy, but it is sci-fi.  It is not a bait-and-switch if the clues were there all along.  He set ASOIAF in an almost identical setting to Bitterblooms, right down to blue winter roses, and Carinhall/Harrenhal, and as you pointed out Ice Wagon/Ice Dragon, and Morgan/Melisandre, but then you refuse to believe that he also added the spaceship too?

 

 

Because Martin has said it several times over the years that ASoIaF is not science fiction. He even said something along the lines of, "if I wanted to write a sci fi story, I'd write a sci fi story". 

And no, he wasn't lying. When asked stuff like this he'll either answer or say things like, 'that would be telling' or 'keep reading'. 

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9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 Therefore, ALL 25 or so of Thousand Worlds stories are Sci-Fi. That is made plainly clear, no thin veneer of anything.

Events are seen through the eyes of a simple medieval person who does not know the ruins they are walking through are part of a collapsed interstellar civilization and that the weird three legged building is a space ship.  I would describe that as being sci-fi written in the style of a fantasy story.

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11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Because Martin has said it several times over the years that ASoIaF is not science fiction. He even said something along the lines of, "if I wanted to write a sci fi story, I'd write a sci fi story". 

And no, he wasn't lying. When asked stuff like this he'll either answer or say things like, 'that would be telling' or 'keep reading'. 

We have already been over this, if it is mythology set in our past on an "alternate earth" then it is not strictly sci-fi.  It is alternate history. 

 

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2 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Events are seen through the eyes of a simple medieval person who does not know the ruins they are walking through are part of a collapsed interstellar civilization and that the weird three legged building is a space ship.  I would describe that as being sci-fi written in the style of a fantasy story.

Sure, but it is still sci-fi. Everything that Morgan uses is technology that is old and the knowledge has been lost to time, but it is istill sci-fi technology.

28 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

That is not accurate, Bitterblooms takes place on a world very similar to Planetos, irregular seasons with long winters, medieval society after a collapse of civilization (and loss of spaceflight), Morgan tricks Shawn into thinking her spaceship is a magical craft.  It is sci-fi with a thin veneer of fantasy, but it is sci-fi.  It is not a bait-and-switch if the clues were there all along.  He set ASOIAF in an almost identical setting to Bitterblooms, right down to blue winter roses, and Carinhall/Harrenhal, and as you pointed out Ice Wagon/Ice Dragon, and Morgan/Melisandre, but then you refuse to believe that he also added the spaceship too?

 

 

No, I do not refuse to think GRRM added a spaceship like he did in Bitterblooms. As George says, he "changed the furniture" to take it from sci-fi to fantasy. A laser beam in sci-fi is a sword in fantasy. He DID add the spaceship, only now that giant three-legged brazier with Morgan living in it and showing false visions on a "tv" wall screen, has been adapted in to Melisandre (and fire mages) requesting and using brass braziers where they practice their rituals and watch visions in the flames. No spaceships necessary in ASOIAF because all that spaceship did in Bitterblooms was act as a plot device to #1 show the interregnum, and #2 be there to expose Morgan for being a fraud. It didn't fly, or move, or blot out the sun... but you know what fire breathing "ship" does blot out the sun and create shadows in ASOIAF? Dragons. Drogon especially.

And for good measure, I do expect a "wind wolf" to shatter those false visions.

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3 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

We have already been over this, if it is mythology set in our past on an "alternate earth" then it is not strictly sci-fi.  It is alternate history. 

 

You're simply twisting things up. I suppose b/c if it is "alternate history" it means you can hang onto your ideas. At least until we learn more.  

You seem to be really into the idea that ASoIaF is a retelling of ragnarok w/ both fantasy and sci fi alternate history elements. And I really, really don't think that's where Martin is going. 

:cheers:

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes, I used the 'fickle fire' expression to keep in tone with the books. Melisandre is another fickle fire. She looks out for herself first, so if she senses a threat, the direction of her flames with move another way.

Because her religion is all a facade... she goes wherever the cold winds blow.

Quote

Renly feels the cold of death and the "hurts to breath" thingy as the shadow knife pierces his throat. It is still born of fire.

Fire and ice can mate, they aren’t so different...

Quote

I have this Renly chapter open now (ACOK/ Cat 4), and as Catelyn approaches Renly's silk tent, she notices the candle flames inside the tent and how it is creating a green (fire)light. I never noticed all of this description before, but hey. And it is "pleasently warm" inside the tent with its many braziers burning.

As opposed to how it’s cold when the shadow shows up.

Quote

I agree that Mel is rather an oversimplified thinker. No doubts from me that her shadow&light talk sounds like double speak. But at the risk of getting unnecessarily tedious in describing the science of shadows, Mel is drawing on Ygritte's "shadow" (different type of shadow) in this scene, at this location. By night all cloaks are grey is said in this scene (as opposed to being black as mentioned by other people elsewhere), and this links to shadows.

I think you are taking this metaphor differently than I do... and while I think it also contains other aspects, like all cloaks being black at night could be taken to mean everyone is on the same side when survival is at stake. Or the red door standing I believe for repressed memories... but for this thread let’s stick with a grander conclusion:

By night all cloaks are black, and all doors are black:

Quote

"By night all cloaks are black, Your Grace. And the flash came and went too fast for me to tell what they were wearing."

Quote

"My city," said Dany. "I was looking for a house with a red door, but by night all the doors are black."

And by firelight everything is flame colored:

Quote

She thought it was red, but it was hard to tell in the night, with the fires roaring all around. Everything seemed red or black or orange. 

The fire leapt from one house to another. Arya saw a tree consumed, the flames creeping across its branches until it stood against the night in robes of living orange.

Quote

In her mind's eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind's eye, all the doors were red.

Things are colored by the setting we see them in... but to then try to judge the world based on this overly simplified black and white view is wrong.

Quote

 

"It glows," said Sam, in a hushed voice. "As if it were on fire. There are no flames, but the steel is yellow and red and orange, all flashing and glimmering, like sunshine on water, but prettier. I wish you could see it, Maester."
"I see it now, Sam. A sword full of sunlight. So lovely to behold." The old man bowed stiffly. "Your Grace. My lady. This was most kind of you."
...
we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam.

 

And Fire and Ice aren’t about light and dark, wights have bright blue eyes and Mel’s shadow baby is darkness...

Life is more complicated than that, but at the same time cloaks, doors, trees and men all come in many different colors, we shouldn’t judge them by the color they first appear.

Quote

They were sent by the gods to guide them, if only the Stark kids knew how to listen to them.

We don’t know where the Direwolf mother came from... or who, if anyone, sent it.

But yes, they should listen to their spirit animals!

Quote

The Stark children were never allowed to believe that things like skinchanging was a real, current talent that they were possibly subject to. This prevented them from harnessing that power. I don't think you and I are that far apart in believing this.

Old Nan introduced them to at least some of the old tales...

I agree in general I think we are at least close on the wolf view, cheers... 

Quote

Because Bran hates the reality he is gong to have to face. Bran, at first, is caught between what Luwin teaches him and what he is discovering on his own about the old gods, old races, etc. Bran loves scary stories, but he is conflicted when presented with the reality of them. Summer reacts to others as Bran does. Jojen "little grandfather" is the first and only one to help Bran realize what he is, and in Bran 5/ACOK, you read about Bran rejecting the idea at first.

It’s funny, I think I give Lewin more credit than that and Jojen less... 

Despite Lewin’s lessons, it does seem like even he harbors doubts about the old powers, he has a Valyrian link, and his last act was to crawl to the heart tree...

Jojen I believe misinterprets his dreams, a lot... like Mel he doesn’t know what he’s looking at and can be counted on to consistently misread the visions. Remember, he’s not a wise grandfather any more than Leaf is an innocent child.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

"Stop it!" Bran shouted. Summer slid toward the weirwood, his white teeth bared.
Jojen Reed took no mind. "When I touched Summer, I felt you in him. Just as you are in him now."
"You couldn't have. I was in bed. I was sleeping."
...
A low rumbling growl rose from Summer's throat, and there was no play in it. He stalked forward, all teeth and hot eyes. Meera stepped between the wolf and her brother, spear in hand. "Keep him back, Bran."
"Jojen is making him angry."
"It's your anger, Bran," her brother said. "Your fear."

A Clash of Kings - Bran V

Bran looked at him, his eyes wide. "What?"
"Warg. Shapechanger. Beastling. That is what they will call you, if they should ever hear of your wolf dreams."
The names made him afraid again. "Who will call me?"
...
"I don't want it. I want to be a knight."
"A knight is what you want. A warg is what you are. You can't change that, Bran, you can't deny it or push it away. You are the winged wolf, but you will never fly." Jojen got up and walked to the window. "Unless you open your eye." He put two fingers together and poked Bran in the forehead, hard.
When he raised his hand to the spot, Bran felt only the smooth unbroken skin. There was no eye, not even a closed one. "How can I open it if it's not there?"

 

He can change that. Watch him warg Hodor... or a corpse... he can be a knight. Should he is a different question.

As for summer’s feelings toward Jojen, it’s very hard to tell if that is Bran effecting Summer or Summer effecting Bran.

Quote

Just like choosing that cup of ice or cup of fire.

It isn’t a choice!!!! Drink from the cup of fire, drink from the cup of Ice... both!

Quote

And I know you and I have very different takes on Bloodraven and the cave scenes, which is fine, but ultimately it gets us going in circles and circles, and circles.

Haha fair enough... different worldviews of ice and fire

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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