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Lady Winter Rose

Why people hate Dany, but love Arya?

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49 minutes ago, Geddus said:

How can he be on a redemption arc if he doesn't regret his actions? He's trying to change, sure, but that's a different matter.

He expresses regret for shoving Bran out the window, and for the deaths of Elia and her children.

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Jaime and Dany are probably the characters whose choices are the most informed by their unconsciousness. Jaime says he feels no remorse for Bran himself as a permanently injured child, only the trouble it's caused, yet he’s compelled to save Sansa and Arya. He doesn’t regret breaking his oath to Aerys, yet he’s compelled to keep certain oaths now. If you read his POV, he’s suspected Cersei for a long time, but it’s just never risen to the surface. He thinks that he feels nothing for Joff when he dies, nor Myrcella and Tommen, yet immediately turns around and wishes for children of his own which he could raise indicating otherwise.

Dany also does this. Her hatred of slavery is rooted in unprocessed anger over her own treatment. Her interest in going to Westeros increases after Viserys' death: guilt over his death has led to take on his purpose. She begins to listen to her inner Viserys at the end of ADWD because of squashed down guilt over his death which has begun to rise to the surface. She doesn't make the connection that her interest in Daario is that he’s meant to be a substitute for Drago, a poor one at that.

She goes fire-and-blood-dragons-plant-no-trees in turn becoming the 3 people she misses most: Viserys, Drago, and Rhaego, the Stallion that Mounts the World.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

He expresses regret for shoving Bran out the window, and for the deaths of Elia and her children.

Where does he express regret for Bran? It's an actual question, I really can't remember. Him complaining about the consequences I recall, but that doesn't count.

As for Elia and her children, that was not something he did.

Edited by Geddus

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43 minutes ago, Geddus said:

Where does he express regret for Bran? It's an actual question, I really can't remember. Him complaining about the consequences I recall, but that doesn't count.

Don't have a book handy, but at one point in Feast he's talking to Cersei, and says something along the lines of how he's not ashamed of loving her, just  things he had done to conceal it. Then he mentions Bran.

Before he had his hand cut off, he was decidedly breazy about that whole thing.

45 minutes ago, Geddus said:

As for Elia and her children, that was not something he did

No, but he experiences clear regret for letting it happen. 

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56 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Don't have a book handy, but at one point in Feast he's talking to Cersei, and says something along the lines of how he's not ashamed of loving her, just  things he had done to conceal it. Then he mentions Bran.

Before he had his hand cut off, he was decidedly breazy about that whole thing.

No, but he experiences clear regret for letting it happen. 

I believe Jaime is similar to Samson.

 

Samson has hair cut and loses his strength (and arrogance in being the best).

Jaime has sword hand cut off and loses his strength (and arrogance in being the best).

 

Samson is captured when he becomes weak.

Jaime is captured (well twice) and becomes weak, both from the dungeons of RR and from Hoat cutting his hand off.

 

Samson is put on a fruitless task of grinding at a mill.

Jaime sets himself on a fruitless task of finding the Stark girls.

 

Samson is betrayed by his lover Delilah.

We will have to see if Jaime is betrayed by perhaps Cercei.

 

Samson prays for strength one last time and dies while killing his enemies.

Again, will have to see if something similar happens to Jaime.

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On 4/18/2018 at 0:52 PM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

No, what is presented in the books is that Daenerys believes that the Great Masters were evidently responsible. Nothing more.

No. When Dany "thinks" or "believes" something, it's presented as such. For example, when Dany sees the red comet in ACOK, the line goes "Dany told herself" the comet speaks of her coming, or something like that. So that's just her opinion. There are other instances of things that are clearly her opinion, or things she thinks about. They are separate from the things she sees or hears. If the POV chapters are all about opinion, then you could say Dany believes she has dragons, Jon believes he was stabbed, or Cat believes the Red Wedding happened. Lol. 

You are ignoring the very obvious fact that if Dany had any reason to suspect some other party than the GM for the murders, she would have done so. She wanted to punish the guilty party, and she does. We can debate about the manner of punishment, but you don't make a convincing argument that the GM that did get punished didn't deserve it so. 

On 4/18/2018 at 0:52 PM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Okay, so what, I should have gone completely off topic and spoken about other characters? Why would I have done that? You can't say I'm biased for not decrying the actions of other characters when we're not talking about those characters.

You were given the opportunity to compare similar actions by other characters to justify your "mad tyrant" argument, but you just ignored it. You can't discard some facts as inconvenient. 

On 4/18/2018 at 0:52 PM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I don't seem to recall that Lincoln crucified a bunch of people without proof of the crimes they were accused of...

Huh? You are missing the point once more. Dany did have proof; she had witnesses, as the quote before shows. I don't know why you are doing these weird logic gymnastics when it's clear that your problem with Dany is not about crucifixion proof or evidence, or anything of the sort. You just want a lame excuse to cast her in a bad light, regardless of the fact that there's nothing to say that she is any worse than other main characters in similar positions. Jon does something parallel-y similar. 

On 4/18/2018 at 0:52 PM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Sure you can. She's actively preventing them living their own way. A way of life they've had for centuries. It's not a bad kind of oppression, but it's oppressive, regardless.

Lol, you have absolutely zero idea what oppression means. 

On 4/18/2018 at 0:52 PM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Right, but are they the ones who gave the orders? It's entirely possible that this wasn't some collective act, but was the actions of a few. So, no, she doesn't try to get the right people.

Yes, because that's what leaders do, they order things. 

On 4/18/2018 at 0:52 PM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

They wouldn't be "looking the other way" if they didn't know about it at all. There's no proof that they did all know.

*sigh*

On 4/18/2018 at 0:52 PM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

If a POV character has thoughts that the sky turned red recently, and nobody has ever explicitly said that the sky is and has always been blue, should we believe them?

If it turned to red, then sky would have obviously been some other color before, and the new color is an aberration. That's the takeaway, not that the sky would have necessarily been blue. I'm not sure how this applies to the GM though. 

On 4/18/2018 at 0:52 PM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

She thinks that crucifying people without proof is justice. Many of her rulings as Queen of Meereen are awful. Her sense of justice is wanting, I think.

Riiiight. Care to elaborate what her "awful rulings" are?  You are going out of limb to cast Dany's actions in a bad light, such as by claiming that she somehow crucified an innocent party. What is your sense of "justice" I wonder. 

On 4/18/2018 at 0:52 PM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Do you think it is possible that Daenerys could have been wrong? No matter how likely you think it, a hundred to one, a million to one, whatever. Do you think it's at all possible that the Great Masters didn't conspire together to crucify those children? That it was the action of a few?

No. It was action by a few, the GM leadership, not a few GM leaders. If any of them were truly innocent, they could have said so. You are just taking the position that Dany somehow crucified "innocent slavers" despite having zero evidence to the contrary. Here's my suggestion: stop beating around in the bush and just come out and say what you really want to say about Dany. If you don't like her because she topples the slaver oligarchy in Mereen and rules against them, then just say so. 

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On 4/19/2018 at 6:22 PM, Lollygag said:

Dany also does this. Her hatred of slavery is rooted in unprocessed anger over her own treatment. Her interest in going to Westeros increases after Viserys' death: guilt over his death has led to take on his purpose. She begins to listen to her inner Viserys at the end of ADWD because of squashed down guilt over his death which has begun to rise to the surface. She doesn't make the connection that her interest in Daario is that he’s meant to be a substitute for Drago, a poor one at that.

 

She goes fire-and-blood-dragons-plant-no-trees in turn becoming the 3 people she misses most: Viserys, Drago, and Rhaego, the Stallion that Mounts the World.

Jaime is villain who starts to have regrets. Jaime at the start is a sort-of narcissist who watches out for his own self-interest only. But we later learn that he is not Cersei, he does have the capacity to do good.  But Dany isn't necessarily that. Unlike Jaime, Dany is not obviously self-obsessed, pursuing just her self-interest. The character that most resembles her is actually Jon--they are both young people who unexpectedly find themselves in leadership positions, with world-changing repercussions. They are both primarily driven to do good, help others, but the decisions they make aren't always so clear cut. 

I think you are trying to say that Dany can sympathize with the slaves because she herself was nearly one. Her own brother sells her. And had it not been for her Targ title, she would have ended up being sold as a slave in that world anyway. She can empathize with oppressed people because she herself was oppressed like that, and could be once more if she loses. 

I think you are right about her wanting to conquer Westeros having to do something with Viserys. She does have this suppressed guilt about his death. And it's his mantra to go "back home" to KL. It could be Dany's way of sort of honoring his memory (not that he deserves it) to invade Westeros.

Darrio really is a rebound and Dany really needs to get over herself. Actually, Dany is not just looking for a Drogo replacement, she is looking for a place to call home. Drogo and his khalasar was very briefly home to Dany. We know that Dany as a little girl was always travelling and never found a place to call home. Her true desire is to be in a loving home. 

Also, Rhaego may not have been the Stallion, as prophesied. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

The character that most resembles her is actually Jon--they are both young people who unexpectedly find themselves in leadership positions, with world-changing repercussions. They are both primarily driven to do good, help others, but the decisions they make aren't always so clear cut.

:agree:  

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Posted (edited)

I cannot answer the OP since I actually don't like Arya that much. I don't feel anything for her at all. I don't want her to die. But I don't want her back in WF either. 

As for Dany, imo she's disliked because she's not relatable. I don't feel anything for her. No hate. But sometimes her chapters are so frustrating,  especially her twisted idea of justice and disregard for cultures comes off as a little distasteful. Actually for me personally,  it comes of a VERY VERY distasteful. She doesn't create a sense of attachment so I wouldn't be much sad if she dies. Though I don't really care if she lives either. But I truly deeply don't want her to win and establish another era of the Targaryen Dynasty.(However at this point,  I don't want anyone to win the IT. Jon Snow?  No. He's going to be depressed there. He's northern to the bone. Stannis? He's my favorite contender in terms of claim as I believe all of Aerys II's children should be overlooked just like how Aerion's son was overlooked. But I hardly think he'll win it. Young Griff?  Actually yeah. It'll be kind of cool. Plot twist :: he's a girl and the younger prettier queen that's suppose to dispose of Cersei)  Also, the only sense of feelings I get is her description of the red door house.

And then,  there's the case of entitlement. It's pretty much there in every Lordling in Westeros, yet something about Dany's sense of entitlement is very disturbing. 

I am sorry to rant. But well,  I'm waiting for a dance of dragons 2.0 , this time the greens win so I would suggest everyone in westeros to go marry a Hightower as fast as possible. Or you know what,  Lady Ermesande wins the IT,  she's the ptwp. I'd be satisfied ::evil laugh::

Edited by Chisa

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Daenerys Targaryen's chapters are poorly done. As a main character she's kinda lame and poorly developed. 

 

The fault is with the Author. 

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I would imagine that its because tomboys are considered masculine and because many people value masculine above feminine.

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Posted (edited)

My opinion disagrees with the original poster's title.  To be precise, I love Dany and hate Arya.  To me, Dany is the protagonist of the story.  Dany might be the perfect hero or come the closest in this story.  She has the qualities of being brave, very intelligent, resourceful, and very beautiful.  I am not saying Arya is a villain but she is certainly not a hero.  I don't despise Arya as much as I despise Jon though.   Arya should forget about revenge and live a quiet life selling seafood snacks at the docks.  Do that and I might dislike her a little less.

Edited by The Transporter

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3 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

Daenerys Targaryen's chapters are poorly done. As a main character she's kinda lame and poorly developed. 

 

The fault is with the Author. 

Many people will and do disagree with you.  Dany's chapters were taken and published separately, and won an award for George Martin.  I would not be reading A Song of Ice and Fire without Dany's chapters.  I could easily do without Arya's chapters.

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On 4/5/2018 at 5:18 PM, Lady Winter Rose said:

Just because one is feminine smart ruler, and another is adventurous tomboy assassin, doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading both of them. But to be honest, Dany is more realistic than Arya. There are RL princesses, no matter how much some readers hated idea of princesses in the novel, while Arya is stereotypical rogue of any fantasy novel/game.

Every book-paying fan has a right to an opinion.  Daenerys has been my favorite character from the very beginning of the novels.  

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1 hour ago, The Transporter said:

Many people will and do disagree with you.  Dany's chapters were taken and published separately, and won an award for George Martin.  I would not be reading A Song of Ice and Fire without Dany's chapters.  I could easily do without Arya's chapters.

Novella.  The Blood of the Dragon is the title.  If memory serves me right, the Daenerys Targaryen chapters won the Hugo Award for Best Novella.   She has the most complete story and her chapters can be read on their own and they will be great reading.  

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