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Lady Winter Rose

Why people hate Dany, but love Arya?

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13 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

This is where we disagree I think. Yes, it was in response to the crucifixion of children, but it was also a symbolic punishment for slavery as a whole.

Yeah, fair enough. I consider that her entire crusade in Essos is her punishing people for being slavers, and that the crucifixion is specifically her punishing people for the 163 children. I could be wrong, though. It's the fact that she crucifies only 163 of them, whereas if it were for just being slavers, she should've given the punishment to all of them. I just don't really see it.

19 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think it was a sign that Dany can go one way or another. I actually do think she's going to go a bit mad before the end of the series, so there's no disagreement from me on that one.

Sure, I think she probably could go either way. She rather quickly pushes down the fact that she feels bad afterwards, though, whereas she relished punishing them. Dwelt on the high, ignored the low. Then we have her final chapter, in which she makes some decisions on who she is, which I consider to be a darker Daenerys. Mad Queen definitely seems to be on the cards, though of course I could be surprised.

23 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I actually agree with all of that. I thought her staying on was madness, but then her leaving didn't exactly help Astapor, so she was really stuffed either way. Still, in my opinion granting people freedom, and them screwing it up for themselves, such as in Astapor, is in my opinion more justifiable than you trying to rule them afterwards, and screwing it up on their behalf.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Astapor was a failing of the Astapori, not of Daenerys. Meereen is all Daenerys's failure. I think one of the worst things is that she has good intentions. It's a little sad that that's meaningless.

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3 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Yeah, fair enough. I consider that her entire crusade in Essos is her punishing people for being slavers, and that the crucifixion is specifically her punishing people for the 163 children. I could be wrong, though. It's the fact that she crucifies only 163 of them, whereas if it were for just being slavers, she should've given the punishment to all of them. I just don't really see it.

It's actually not at all uncommon in collective acts of punishment to limit the number in a kind of arbitrary way - for example the Roman custom of decimation. It's the brutal act that matters - as an example to others - not the selection of victims.

5 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Sure, I think she probably could go either way. She rather quickly pushes down the fact that she feels bad afterwards, though, whereas she relished punishing them. Dwelt on the high, ignored the low.

Well yeah, she kind of regrets it but doesn't seem too bothered. Which to be honest is fair enough. I don't need her cut up about it, but hopefully it was a learning moment. 

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12 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

It's actually not at all uncommon in collective acts of punishment to limit the number in a kind of arbitrary way - for example the Roman custom of decimation. It's the brutal act that matters - as an example to others - not the selection of victims.

Yeah, Decimatio. One in ten men were beaten to death by the other nine, chosen by lots. Precisely random. There's a difference between Decimatio and what Daenerys did, however. Murdering 1/10 of whichever military unit was being punished is feasible. It'd make the others fight harder, so as not to be punished again, at least theoretically. Murdering 10/10 of said military unit is unfeasible. Daenerys had no such reason to stay her hand. She could've killed them all, so why not? Not to mention, it's not really a deterrent for being a slaver. Because it's not the punishment for slavery. Definitely a deterrent for crucifying children, though, as it was the punishment for that.

I see it as simple vengeance. Eye for an eye, crucifixion for a crucifixion, as they say. It's just differing interpretations, I suppose. The classic "agree to disagree" situation.

20 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Well yeah, she kind of regrets it but doesn't seem too bothered. Which to be honest is fair enough. I don't need her cut up about it, but hopefully it was a learning moment.

Fingers crossed. If she wants to be the hero she thinks she is, she should learn from her past mistakes, but I don't think she will. "If I look back I am lost" is one of my big issues with her.

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8 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Yeah, Decimatio. One in ten men were beaten to death by the other nine, chosen by lots. Precisely random. There's a difference between Decimatio and what Daenerys did, however. Murdering 1/10 of whichever military unit was being punished is feasible. It'd make the others fight harder, so as not to be punished again, at least theoretically. Murdering 10/10 of said military unit is unfeasible. Daenerys had no such reason to stay her hand. She could've killed them all, so why not? Not to mention, it's not really a deterrent for being a slaver. Because it's not the punishment for slavery. Definitely a deterrent for crucifying children, though, as it was the punishment for that.

Dracarystio!

I was speaking in generalities. It's a "don't mess with me" message.

9 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

The classic "agree to disagree" situation.

Fair.

 

 

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On 4/5/2018 at 4:18 PM, Lady Winter Rose said:

Just because one is feminine smart ruler, and another is adventurous tomboy assassin, doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading both of them. But to be honest, Dany is more realistic than Arya. There are RL princesses, no matter how much some readers hated idea of princesses in the novel, while Arya is stereotypical rogue of any fantasy novel/game.

I don't think it's either you like one or the other. I personally enjoy reading both their chapters. I'm indifferent to Dany and root for the Starks, but enjoy both their POVs. They have garnered power and agency for themselves in their own ways. Yes, they both have flaws, but I look at them in context to the world they live in. But I don't why we have to pit them against one another.

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1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Dracarystio!

Heh.

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I was speaking in generalities. It's a "don't mess with me" message.

Maybe I'd be more inclined to think she was sending a message if she didn't undermine the message almost immediately afterwards, by making concessions to the slavers, not executing her hostages, etc. She's just so... inconsistent, so it's a little hard to tell what her intentions are, sometimes, even if we are in her head.

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7 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Dany is actually one of the smartest people in the novels.  Certainly she is much, much smarter than Jon Snow.  Look for the topic thread titled "Daenerys Targaryen's Power Plays" and if you have any reading comprehension at all, you will find strong proof of Dany's high level of intelligence.  

She has show that she can make intelligent decisions. But she isn't highly intelligent. If she's as intelligent as you claim she is she would have made smarter decisions that net her an armada as quick as possible. Instead she has been lingering in meeren surrounded by her enemies. She's just lucky Victorian happens to be arriving with a bunch of ships. If it weren't for that she would be stuck there for some time. The only highly intelligent people in the whole series are

Varys

Tyrion

LF

Barristan

Tywin

Jaime

Bloodraven

Queen of Thorns

Old Nan

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Arya saw Joffrey for the little shit he was, while Daenerys wouldn’t see anything good about Ned Stark if it was dancing in front of her.

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On 4/5/2018 at 6:26 PM, Agent Orange said:

Actually, I love Dany and hate Arya.  It's all according to who you like.  

I have also noticed that Jon-haters like me also hate Arya.  

I expect this is all by design and according to George Martin's intents.  He wants his characters to generate strong feelings in the readers.  

That's me, I hate both Jon and Arya.  

 

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On 4/6/2018 at 10:44 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Dany is my favorite character.   I love her.

I don't like Arya.  

It seems the Op is making assumptions.

No, the OP is trying to generate a lot of Dany hate comments.  It is up to us, the Arya critics to reply in kind.

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On 4/7/2018 at 10:08 AM, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

Some people hate Dany, but love Arya. Some people love Dany, but hate Arya. But all these people hate SANSA for sure. 

I dislike Sansa, but I don't hate her like I hate Arya and Jon.  By the way, I am a Dany supporter.  

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47 minutes ago, Tai Pan said:

No, the OP is trying to generate a lot of Dany hate comments.  It is up to us, the Arya critics to reply in kind.

So you're basically a troll.

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The fans are really divided on these two characters.  They both have their share of adoring fans.  But you can't have adoring fans without the critics.  That means both are well-written characters.  

Daenerys Targaryen is my favorite person.  I want her to win the game and take back the Iron Throne and rule for the next 80 years.  I just love her.  I am not a fan of Arya though.  

On 4/5/2018 at 6:36 PM, Horse of Kent said:

Why do people feel the need to strip female characters of all nuance, force them into caricatures of themselves and pit them in a deathmatch from which only one true likeable woman can emerge?

At least Arya vs Dany makes a nice change to Arya vs Sansa, I guess.

There are many reasons that I can think of.

  1. This is the best fan site.  The site owners co-authored one of the books.  I suppose many people are trying very hard to influence the direction the author may take the story.  In other words, they want the author to write an ending that favors the characters they love.  I see this mostly in the fans who like Jon Snow.  They are worried right now because George is more than likely going to keep Jon dead.  They are doing what they can to sway George.  
  2. I have said above that I am a fan of Daenerys Targaryen.  She is the "most beautiful woman in the world," the Mother of Dragons, Azor Ahai, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Mhysa, the Unburnt, an honest-to-goodness princess, heir to Westeros. Daenerys is very intelligent, slim, athletic, astute, brave, and charismatic.  Personally, those are some of the reasons why I love Daenerys.  Those blessings are also enough to shake the self-confidence of a lot of insecure boys and girls among the fans.  That is the not the case with me.  I am not as beautiful, as athletic, nor as smart as Daenerys but I have never lacked in those qualities.  Reading the text that describes Daenerys as an almost goddess-like figure does not shake my confidence in the least.  It just makes me admire her more.
  3. Arya is not attractive.  She does not possess charm and elegance.  I suppose that appeals to some of the fans out there.  I do not find Arya interesting.

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13 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

This is the best fan site.  The site owners co-authored one of the books.  I suppose many people are trying very hard to influence the direction the author may take the story.  In other words, they want the author to write an ending that favors the characters they love.  I see this mostly in the fans who like Jon Snow.  They are worried right now because George is more than likely going to keep Jon dead.  They are doing what they can to sway George.  

I have to ask before I actually elaborate a reply. 

Are  you serious? And I'm not even going into the absurdity and massive reading comprehension fail that would lead anyone into thinking Jon will be written out at this point in the story. Nope.  I'm merely asking if you are serious when you say Jon fans are trying to sway Martin into keeping him in the story. Because that statement is a top contender for the most outrageously nonsensical and hilarious claim I have ever read here. Or anywhere, for that matter.

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have to ask before I actually elaborate a reply. 

Are  you serious? And I'm not even going into the absurdity and massive reading comprehension fail that would lead anyone into thinking Jon will be written out at this point in the story. Nope.  I'm merely asking if you are serious when you say Jon fans are trying to sway Martin into keeping him in the story. Because that statement is a top contender for the most outrageously nonsensical and hilarious claim I have ever read here. Or anywhere, for that matter.

It must have struck a nerve with you.  Yeah, I think there is that going on.  George Martin is not the kind to cave in to fan pressure though.  

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14 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:
  1. This is the best fan site.  The site owners co-authored one of the books.  I suppose many people are trying very hard to influence the direction the author may take the story.  In other words, they want the author to write an ending that favors the characters they love.  I see this mostly in the fans who like Jon Snow.  They are worried right now because George is more than likely going to keep Jon dead.  They are doing what they can to sway George.  
  2. I have said above that I am a fan of Daenerys Targaryen.  She is the "most beautiful woman in the world," the Mother of Dragons, Azor Ahai, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Mhysa, the Unburnt, an honest-to-goodness princess, heir to Westeros. Daenerys is very intelligent, slim, athletic, astute, brave, and charismatic.

I didn't know it was a "fan site"… I though it was a discussion forum…

You seriously think the author reads the forum, and might be influenced by some discussions here?

As for your 2. paragraph, it is the speech of an exhilarated 12 years old wench, I guess it explains the 1.

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14 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

I didn't know it was a "fan site"… I though it was a discussion forum…

You seriously think the author reads the forum, and might be influenced by some discussions here?

As for your 2. paragraph, it is the speech of an exhilarated 12 years old wench, I guess it explains the 1.

Calling someone a wench is not really an intelligent way to express yourself.

 

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5 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Calling someone a wench is not really an intelligent way to express yourself.

 

Wait, "wench" is depreciating? In this case I apologize, I really didn't know…  (I tried two online translators that say otherwise)

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33 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

It must have struck a nerve with you.  Yeah, I think there is that going on.  George Martin is not the kind to cave in to fan pressure though.  

Indeed, it struck a nerve w/ me w/o a doubt. Not in the way you think though. 

:cheers:

 

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