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A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms Reread

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OMG, i totally missed the start of this re-read .... @Seams .... can I join in now with my observations and such even though you all have passed me by?
 
I certainly won't be able to analyze and speculate on the level that you (and all the thread contributors) have made but maybe some of my questions and observations can trigger some ideas?

Have you completed tSS & tMK yet?

 

 

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On 8/10/2018 at 9:06 PM, Yaya said:

OMG, i totally missed the start of this re-read .... @Seams .... can I join in now with my observations and such even though you all have passed me by?
 
I certainly won't be able to analyze and speculate on the level that you (and all the thread contributors) have made but maybe some of my questions and observations can trigger some ideas?

Have you completed tSS & tMK yet?

Hi, Yaya. Feel free to join the discussion. I have not yet started my own analysis of The Sworn Sword and The Mystery Knight. I exhausted myself on The Hedge Knight and took a break from this thread. But I mean to get back to it one of these days.

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On 4/13/2018 at 9:25 AM, Seams said:

Pennytree as an entrance to the Otherworld

The woman in Bracken's bed (her name is Hildy) personifies both the teats and Pennytree.

Skip this if you hate wordplay, but a little anagram - paired with a remark by Jaime - offers another clue about the purpose or symbolism of Pennytree in the story. Here's the bit with Jaime:

... Jaime smiled at the woman in the bed. She had one hand over her left breast and the other between her legs, which left her right breast exposed. . . . When she felt Jaime's gaze she covered her right nipple, but that revealed her mound. "Are all camp followers so modest?" he wondered. "If a man wants to sell his turnips, he needs to set them out."

"You been looking at my turnips since you came in, ser." The woman found the blanket and pulled it up high enough to cover herself to the waist, then raised one hand to push the hair back from her eyes. "And they're not for sale, neither."

Jaime gave a shrug. "My apologies if I mistook you for something you're not. My little brother has known a hundred whores, I'm sure, but I've only ever bedded one."

(ADwD, Jaime I, Chap. 48)

The anagram is this:

Pennytree = neep entry.

"Neep" is the Scottish and northern English word for turnip. That explains why GRRM chose that particular odd metaphor for Jaime's conversation with Hildy.

But what does this mean for the larger ASOIAF story?

We know that root vegetables are important in part because Davos Seaworth chooses to be The Onion Knight when Stannis knights him. Davos thinks to himself that he smuggled "life" in the form of onions on his first secret mission into Storm's End and death in the form of Melisandre on his next mission there. Root vegetables come up at feasts including when Bran must choose which dishes to send to which honored guests at Winterfell and he sends a plate of turnips to Big and Little Walder. But roots are major symbols throughout the books.

The Hildy / turnip interlude and the matching anagram indicate that Jaime's departure with Brienne will involve entering a magical "mound" like those found in Celtic legends - an entrance to the Underworld. If I understand correctly, the Celts allowed for multiple Underworlds with multiple entrances. Jaime's "guide" to this Pennytree entrance was Hoster Blackwood, so he may be entering the Blackwood underworld. Or maybe Pennytree is the neutral entrance between two other entrances (Raventree and Honeytree). Maybe, like the Black Gate beneath the Night Fort, the entry can be opened only by an authorized party - the Black Gate opens only for a brother of the Night's Watch; maybe Pennytree opens only for ... a member of the King's Guard? Jaime is that and Brienne was a member of the Rainbow Guard. And there is constant, strong King's Guard interaction and build-up in the Dunk & Egg stories.

[Edit: I think the King's Guard requirement may be correct. Part of Jaime's interaction with Hildy involves her asking whether he has a wife (he tells her he has a sister) and he calls attention to his white cape (asking her to note that he is a member of the King's Guard and therefore has no wife). She then leaves without finding one shoe (a sort of Cinderella allusion, I think, inviting Jaime to come after her) and gives his crotch a squeeze as she passes him. She wants him to come after her.]

I'm not saying that Jaime and Brienne are literally going to ride their horses into a hole in the ground and interact with Children of the Forest (although that's always a possibility). I believe that Brienne's entire quest through the Riverlands has an Otherworld quality to it, and the "entry" into another world can be figurative, not a literal part of the plot.

So this Dunk & Egg stuff is taking us deep into ASOIAF, which is what I hoped. But it could get quite complex in terms of symbolism. For instance, what more do we need to know about turnips and the underworld? I remember that Bran was unhappy that Rickon allowed Little and Big Walder to play in the Winterfell crypt - he felt that was a Stark place and the Walders were not the kind of guests who should be allowed in there. But he sent the Walders a plate of turnips at the Harvest Feast and sent Nan and Hodor a plate of sweets, thinking this was an expression of his love for them. This is the opposite of Lord Blackwood agreeing to give up Honeytree to Lord Bracken, a gesture intended to rot Bracken's teeth. Was Bran steering each of these characters toward different entrances to the Underworld?

I would also note that Jaime compares Hildy to Cersei and he earlier compared Ser Ryman Frey's camp follower, the Queen of Whores, to Cersei as well.

Not much time at the moment, but so many story parrallels to the Nights Watch storyline as well... right down to a queen of Whores. 

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I posted some observations in the "Wow, I never noticed that . . . " thread, but I think I should start posting them here. My thoughts are starting to come together on The Sworn Sword, although I haven't figured out everything I would like to understand. (Maybe I never will reach a complete analysis and that would suit GRRM just fine, I daresay.)

Some preliminary, broad observations about the second Dunk & Egg story:

  • Although it seems to be a complete departure from the two tourney stories (The Hedge Knight and The Mystery Knight), I believe The Sworn Sword is still of a piece with them in the sense that GRRM is dropping hints for us about Targaryen and other family relationships.
  • As @Feather Crystal noted, the dam does seem to be a parallel for The Wall. In this story, however, the pairing of the "wall" with a "well" becomes more apparent to me. (You knew there would be some kind of wordplay, didn't you?) Tentatively, based on my latest of several readings of The Sworn Sword, I believe that walls (dams) are masculine and wells and moats are feminine. Keeping the family relationships in mind, it may be interesting to note that there are several references to "her moat" which could anagram into "a mother".
  • Just as GRRM presents fire and ice as opposing elements that somehow need to be brought into balance, there seem to be elements in The Sworn Sword that are out of balance and need to be set right. They may not fall into neat categories like the fire / ice duality, or maybe they do: dirt and water seem to be fundamental building blocks in this story, and both things are necessary for fruit and other crops to thrive. Since fruit is a major motif in ASOIAF, achieving a balance of earth and water is important to making a stable world. Night / day, hot / cold, big / small, up / down, fool / knight, dead / alive - there are a number of ways of being that are in tension or out of balance in the story.
  • The resolution of the story is achieved only after Ser Lucas "Longinch" Inchfield and Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield are removed from the scene. Are these characters like "dams" ? Or are they the things walled up behind the dams that need to be let loose or exorcised from the places they occupy?

Links to the two things I posted in the "Wow, I never noticed" thread (volume 17):

Ser Lucas Longinch fits the description of Dunk's expectations about his unknown father.

Daemon Blackfyre at the Redgrass Field has elements in common with Littlefinger at the Vale.

Here's a new question for your consideration and discussion: does GRRM want us to infer a possible father / son relationship between Daemon Blackfyre and Dunk? Daemon lived from 170 to 196. Dunk was born in 191, 192 or 193 at King's Landing.

Daemon stood straight and proud, and his stomach was flat and hard as an oaken shield. And he could fight. With axe or lance or flail, he was as good as any knight I ever saw, but with the sword he was the Warrior himself.

(Ser Eustace Osgrey in The Sworn Sword)

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On 11/28/2018 at 11:25 AM, Seams said:

As @Feather Crystal noted, the dam does seem to be a parallel for The Wall. In this story, however, the pairing of the "wall" with a "well" becomes more apparent to me.

Hi Seams. Just a quick note to let you know I'm following along.

I agree "wells" have significant symbolism in the story. Wells, and drowning enemies with water is associated with Lannisters. The text implies that Cersei pushed her friend, Melara Hetherspoon, down a well after hearing their fortunes by Maggie the Frog, while her father, Tywin, is famous for drowning the Reynes of Castamere. Wells are also inverted towers, which are connected with death and rebirth. The tale of Ashara jumping off a tower is symbolically confirmation that she's not actually dead, but reborn into another identity. Lastly, when Arianne had Arys lead Myrcella to meet up at a well, the reader subconsciously felt the impending doom that signaled the attack on Myrcella and the death of Arys which occurred later on.

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@Seams Did you noticed in those three novels any indications of who could be Dunk's parents? I think, I found something, but I could be totally wrong about this. So what do you think (about Dunk's ancestry)?

 

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

@Seams Did you noticed in those three novels any indications of who could be Dunk's parents? I think, I found something, but I could be totally wrong about this. So what do you think (about Dunk's ancestry)?

Good question, @Megorova. I will be interested to hear what you found.

I think there are symbolic parents for Dunk in the story I have been reading over and over - The Sworn Sword. Oddly, they are Ser Lucas Longinch and Lady Rohanne Webber. So very much an Oedipus story playing out in that layer of symbolism. The Rohanne connection is symbolically important because of the future bond between Jaime Lannister (great-grandson of Rohanne) and Brienne (descendant of Dunk).

But another strong set of symbols tells me that Dunk is descended from House Darklyn. "Dunkel" means "dark" in German so "Dunk" could be a hint about that name. House Darklyn's major claim to fame is that more members of the King's Guard have come from their House than from any other, and Dunk is famous for being a King's guard. Duskendale is also where Brienne has her shield painted to match Dunk's sigil, and where she uncovers key information from the pious dwarf at the Seven Swords inn, allowing her to proceed to Maidenpool and then begin her quest to Crackclaw Point.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Seams said:

I will be interested to hear what you found.

It was raining in all three novels. And it wasn't just some random rains. In first book Duncan's caretaker, Ser Arlan, died by a chill caused by rain. It was raining prior the trial of seven at Ashford Meadow. In The Sworn Sword, after a drought, that lasted longer than a year, it started to rain, when Duncan defeated Lucas Longinch in a duel, and Lucas drowned in a stream called Chequy Water. It was raining at Whitewalls, prior combat between Glendon Ball and Daemon II Blackfyre, and during that rain Dunk drawned Alyn Cockshaw in a well. First time Dunk met Egg, the boy was coming out of a stream. Later Dunk was washing in a pool near Ashford. In The Sworn Sword - "Maybe when they reached the stream he'd have a soak. He smiled, thinking how good that would feel, to jump right in and come up sopping wet and grinning, with water cascading down his cheeks and through his tangled hair and his tunic clinging sodden to his skin. " So Duncan is strongly connected to water. Supposedly he was born at King's Landing, which makes him a Waters, but I think, that it's more than just that.

If Dany didn't had an older brother, what would have happened to her, when Willem Darry died?

Duncan was born in 191, or 192, or 193. Ser Arlan supposedly had found Duncan, aged 5 or 6, approximately two years after death of his first squire, chasing pigs in the Flea Bottom.

Brienne Tarth, who is supposedly Duncan's descendant, is a blue-eyed blonde (I think, that her mother is Pretty Meris, Wenda the White Fawn, she's also a blue-eyed tall blonde). Dunk's eye color is unknown, and his hair is: The Sworn Sword - "Dunk pushed his fingers through his mop of sun-streaked hair." The Mystery Knight - "He washed off the dust of the road as best he could, and ran wet fingers through his thick mop of sun-streaked hair."

Rohanne Webber tried to give Duncan as a gift a horse with Dornish sand steed ancestry, her name was Flame. Dunk refused to take her, though accepted a different horse for Egg, later they named him Rain.

The Hedge Knight - "He had piled the old man's things under an oak. The cloth purse contained three silver stags, nineteen copper pennies, and a chipped garnet". The Mystery Knight - " "We have twenty-two pennies, three stars, one stag, and that old chipped garnet, ser." "

I'm curious, whether you will make the same conclusion, as I did, about Dunk's parentage, based on that information.

I think, that his parents are

Spoiler

Daemon I Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen.

That chipped garnet originally belonged to Duncan, it's an evidence of his ancestry. Because it's a piece of Blackfyre sword.

Daemon has finally decided to rebell against King Daeron, because Daeron refused to legitimize his bastard-son born by Daenerys ("Dornishman's wife" song is about them). When King Daeron found out about Daemon's decision to rebell, he sent Kingsguards to seize him, but Daemon was saved by Quentyn Ball, who at that time was master-at-arms at Red Keep. So it's logical, that Daemon had entrusted the care of his son to Quentyn. Willem Darry, Dany's caretaker, also used to be master-at-arms at Red Keep. So GRRM was following the same pattern here - Duncan got abandoned, because Quentyn Ball unexpectedly died.

The Mystery Knight - " "Did Ser Quentyn die upon the Redgrass Field?" "Before, ser," Egg replied. "An archer put an arrow through his throat as he dismounted by a stream to have a drink. Just some common man, no one knows who." "Those common men can be dangerous when they get it in their heads to start slaying lords and heroes." "

At that time little Duncan was living with his nanny or wet nurse, or some other servants, at King's Landing, and Quentyn Ball was paying for his care. But when Quentyn was killed, those people abandoned Dunk. And no one else, besides Quentyn, knew where the boy was kept, so he ended up as an orphan at the Flea Bottom. Besides Daenerys and Daemon, other people, that knew about that baby were King Daeron, Quentyn Ball, Bittersteel, and maybe Bloodraven.

That's why Bloodraven said to Dunk: " "We'd all be bastard sons of old King Aegon if half these tales were true." "And who's to say we're not?" Ser Maynard quipped."

And when they met at KL, Bloodraven felt Dunk looking at him, because he felt another dragonseed:

"Six years ago in King's Landing, Dunk had seen him with his own two eyes, as he rode a pale horse up the Street of Steel with fifty Raven's Teeth behind him. That was before King Aerys had ascended to the Iron Throne and made him the Hand, but even so he cut a striking figure, garbed in smoke and scarlet with Dark Sister on his hip. His pallid skin and bone-white hair made him look a living corpse. Across his cheek and chin spread a wine-stain birthmark that was supposed to resemble a red raven, though Dunk only saw an odd-shaped blotch of discolored skin. He stared so hard that Bloodraven felt it. The king's sorcerer had turned to study him as he went by. He had one eye, and that one red. The other was an empty socket, the gift Bittersteel had given him upon the Redgrass Field. Yet it seemed to Dunk that both eyes had looked right through his skin, down to his very soul."

People were staring at him all the time, so he should have been used to it. But for some reason he felt Dunk watching him. In that crowd he felt Dunk's gaze, and turned to look at him, not at anyone else, that were also gawking at him.

And Dunk also felt something, when he met Egg, and Prince Daeron, and Prince Baelor, and John the Fiddler.

What do you think? ^_^

Edited by Megorova

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think, that his parents are

  Reveal hidden contents

Daemon I Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen.

That chipped garnet originally belonged to Duncan, it's an evidence of his ancestry. Because it's a piece of Blackfyre sword.

Daemon has finally decided to rebell against King Daeron, because Daeron refused to legitimize his bastard-son born by Daenerys ("Dornishman's wife" song is about them). When King Daeron found out about Daemon's decision to rebell, he sent Kingsguards to seize him, but Daemon was saved by Quentyn Ball, who at that time was master-at-arms at Red Keep. So it's logical, that Daemon had entrusted the care of his son to Quentyn. Willem Darry, Dany's caretaker, also used to be master-at-arms at Red Keep. So GRRM was following the same pattern here - Duncan got abandoned, because Quentyn Ball unexpectedly died.

The Mystery Knight - " "Did Ser Quentyn die upon the Redgrass Field?" "Before, ser," Egg replied. "An archer put an arrow through his throat as he dismounted by a stream to have a drink. Just some common man, no one knows who." "Those common men can be dangerous when they get it in their heads to start slaying lords and heroes." "

At that time little Duncan was living with his nanny or wet nurse, or some other servants, at King's Landing, and Quentyn Ball was paying for his care. But when Quentyn was killed, those people abandoned Dunk. And no one else, besides Quentyn, knew where the boy was kept, so he ended up as an orphan at the Flea Bottom. Besides Daenerys and Daemon, other people, that knew about that baby were King Daeron, Quentyn Ball, Bittersteel, and maybe Bloodraven.

That's why Bloodraven said to Dunk: " "We'd all be bastard sons of old King Aegon if half these tales were true." "And who's to say we're not?" Ser Maynard quipped."

And when they met at KL, Bloodraven felt Dunk looking at him, because he felt another dragonseed:

"Six years ago in King's Landing, Dunk had seen him with his own two eyes, as he rode a pale horse up the Street of Steel with fifty Raven's Teeth behind him. That was before King Aerys had ascended to the Iron Throne and made him the Hand, but even so he cut a striking figure, garbed in smoke and scarlet with Dark Sister on his hip. His pallid skin and bone-white hair made him look a living corpse. Across his cheek and chin spread a wine-stain birthmark that was supposed to resemble a red raven, though Dunk only saw an odd-shaped blotch of discolored skin. He stared so hard that Bloodraven felt it. The king's sorcerer had turned to study him as he went by. He had one eye, and that one red. The other was an empty socket, the gift Bittersteel had given him upon the Redgrass Field. Yet it seemed to Dunk that both eyes had looked right through his skin, down to his very soul."

People were staring at him all the time, so he should have been used to it. But for some reason he felt Dunk watching him. In that crowd he felt Dunk's gaze, and turned to look at him, not at anyone else, that were also gawking at him.

And Dunk also felt something, when he met Egg, and Prince Daeron, and Prince Baelor, and John the Fiddler.

What do you think? ^_^

I think this is excellent! I think I have to drop that Darklyn theory and return to an earlier theory about Dunk as a Blackfyre bastard. You have filled in a lot detail that escaped me. Looking back through old posts, I find only a few small observations about Dunk's potential Targ connection:

Earlier in this thread.

On 11/28/2018 at 12:25 PM, Seams said:

Links to the two things I posted in the "Wow, I never noticed" thread (volume 17):

Ser Lucas Longinch fits the description of Dunk's expectations about his unknown father.

Daemon Blackfyre at the Redgrass Field has elements in common with Littlefinger at the Vale.

Here's a new question for your consideration and discussion: does GRRM want us to infer a possible father / son relationship between Daemon Blackfyre and Dunk? Daemon lived from 170 to 196. Dunk was born in 191, 192 or 193 at King's Landing.

Daemon stood straight and proud, and his stomach was flat and hard as an oaken shield. And he could fight. With axe or lance or flail, he was as good as any knight I ever saw, but with the sword he was the Warrior himself.

(Ser Eustace Osgrey in The Sworn Sword)

From a tangent in another discussion:

On 2/20/2019 at 8:59 AM, Seams said:

This is pretty far off the Illyrio / Barristan topic but I also suspect that Barristan is a dragonseed. I have almost zero evidence for this except links among the character arcs, and a possible pattern that is slowly emerging, in the stories of Ser Duncan the Tall, Brienne and Barristan. I suspect Dunk may be the illegitimate son of Daemon Blackfyre and that successful Targaryen kings need both the Blackfyre and Dark Sister "sides" of the family to maintain balance and to rule effectively. So the departure of Ser Barristan destabilizes the monarchy in a way that has little or nothing to do with his political loyalties but something to do with his bloodline. As far as we know, Joffrey and the Lannisters have no Targaryen blood so the other part of the Targ balance may have been lost with the departure of the Hound or Tyrion himself - Tyrion pouring the last wine out of Joff's goblet is not a move to hide the dregs of poison, but may be symbolic of letting Joff die. Joffrey wanted Tyrion to be his champion when he told him to get on the pig during the wedding feast.

I am firmly persuaded that Tyrion is also a hidden Targ, and I think that GRRM gives us a number of useful clues comparing Tyrion and Dunk during Tyrion's time with Griff and Young Griff and the others aboard The Shy Maid.

I love the connection to Quentyn Ball as well. Months Years ago, I had noticed that Glendon and Quentyn Ball seemed significant, and wondered about the connection to Quentyn Martell, who seems to die in a fireball. But I didn't know how to make all of the connections relevant. If Ball was the guardian of Daemon's baby, however, this adds meaningful layers to the key role played by Glendon Ball at Whitewalls - accused of stealing a dragon egg ( =  symbolic baby Targ) he didn't actually steal, but he is later vindicated in a trial by combat.

The real thief of the dragon egg (Bloodraven, with the help of mummer dwarfs) also seems to be a mentor for both Dunk and Egg at the same time. The reader assumes he is overseeing the growth and education of Egg, who we know will eventually become Aegon V, but he may be watching over both Dunk and Egg for similar reasons - they are both Targ princes; they are both dragon eggs. (And that leads us to another "Aha! moment" because that would mean that there are three dragon eggs at Whitewalls - the literal egg given to Lord Butterwell by Aegon IV and Dunk and Egg. It feels more normal to me when dragon eggs exist in groups of three.)

So helpful, your observation that Darry played the same guardian role for Dany and Viserys that you theorize for Quentyn Ball in overseeing the hiding / safekeeping of Daemon's son / Dunk. I knew there had to be a connection between all the dairy references with the surname Darry: Butterwell, Whitewalls (describing an egg shell) and the dream about a hatching at Whitewalls. If I recall correctly, there was even discussion at some point that Lord Butterwell's young Frey bride might end up being a wetnurse - more dairy imagery - after her husband is disgraced and impoverished. Lots of little threads starting to come together if you are right about Quentyn Ball as a "nursemaid". I bet he had nipples on his breastplate.

In yet another tangent, I wondered last year whether there is a wordplay connection between Bael and Ball. King Baelor and Prince Baelor have strong connections to Dorne, the first Quentyn was named Ball and Quentyn Martell is Dornish. (One of those "ringmail" wordplay associations I perceive in GRRM's thought patterns, where one link leads to the next.) @Lost Melnibonean pulled up some excerpts that pointed to a connection between "selling one's manhood" and obtaining a dragon egg. This reminded me of the boast by Petyr Baelish that he holds Varys's balls in the palm of his hand. So again, a good connection to bolster this idea that Quentyn Ball was the guardian of Daemon's son / dragon egg. He wanted to join the King's Guard (which requires him to forego future fatherhood; perhaps the equivalent of selling one's manhood) but Aegon IV and Daeron denied him that path, leading him to provoke the Blackfyre rebellion by whispering in Daemon's ear.

There is a lot of logic in your analysis! Well done! And lots to build on.

Edited by Seams

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Posted (edited)

There's more elements, that could be possible clues.

1. For example, it is known that in 233, when Egg became King, Duncan escorted maester Aemon and Bloodraven to the Wall. At that time he wasn't yet a Kingsguard. Many readers assume, that Duncan went to The North, because he and maester Aemon were friends. But I think, that he went to The North because of a different reason, not because he wanted to accompany Aemon.

It is known, that in fourth novel of the series Dunk and Egg visited Winterfell. According to some rumors, Hodor is a descendant of Duncan the Tall, same as Brienne. And in one of Bran's tree-visions of the past-Winterfell, he saw a brown-haired girl kissing with a knight, as tall as Hodor. So my guess, is that the knight is Duncan, and the girl is "Old Nan".

She could actually be fifth child of Beron Stark and Lorra Royce, and younger sister of Willam Stark, Alysanne. Willam's first wife was Lyanne Glover. Lyanne died in childbirth. Her son, Brandon, died at age three of a summer chill. Old Nan was his wet nurse. It is possible, that Willam asked his sister to become wet nurse for his newborn son, if shortly prior his birth, Alysanne herself became a mother (possibly of Duncan's baby). If that's the case, then there could be several options of what happened. Duncan and Alysanne/Nan could have been married, or not. Maybe, her family was against Nan getting married with some hedge knight, so instead, when she got pregnant, they forced her to marry with someone else (with one of Starks' bannerman or with a Stark-cousin). So she was sent away from Winterfell. Though some time later her husband died, and when Willam's wife also died, he asked his sister to return to Winterfell, and to become wet nurse for Brandon Stark.

So if Duncan had a child and a lover (or wife) in The North, then there was a reason for him to go there, and he used an opportunity of escorting maester Aemon to The Wall, as a means to get closer to Winterfell.

Dunk and Egg went to Winterfell sometime after Whitewalls, in 212. At that time Dunk was 19-21. So it's likely, that that's when he hooked up with Nan. So by the time of Third Blackfyre Rebellion, in 219, Duncan already had someone back at The North. So it's possible, that when Bittersteel was captured, and sent to the Wall, Duncan was escorting him there, same as he was escorting maester Aemon in 233. Both times Duncan went to The North as an escort, because his real goal was to visit someone at Winterfell (or maybe at some point in time Nan was evicted from Winterfell, and was living in The Gift, which is close to the Wall, so that's why Duncan went there).

It is known, that Blackfyre sword was confiscated from Haegon I Blackfyre, Daemon's fourth son, in 219. In the World book there was info about some sort of courageous deed of Maekar's fourth son, Egg. So, maybe, after that the Blackfyre sword was given as a reward to Egg (or to Duncan, or Egg gave the sword to Duncan). So Bittersteel and Dunk were sailing towards Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, and Blackfyre sword was also there (with Egg, or without Egg). And that's when Dunk noticed, that in that sword is missing a piece of garnet gemstone on it's pommel. And he had that missing piece among his posessions. And Bittersteel was one of those people, to whom Daemon had entrusted a secret about his bastard-child, born by Princess Daenerys. So Bittersteel revealed to Duncan, who his father was. And Duncan helped Bittersteel to escape. Or it all happened while they all were still at King's Landing, where Bittersteel was brought in chains after the battle. So it was then, that Dunk found out who he is. Or something like that.

When exactly Dunk found out, about who his father was, is based on who revealed it to him. In 219 Bittersteel could have seen, that Dunk has that chipped garnet, but at that time, he said nothing. It could have been Bloodraven, the one who revealed that secret to Dunk, in 233, when Dunk was escorting him to the Wall. Or it could have happened even later. First time Dunk was mentioned as a Kingsguard, was in 236, in span of Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion, in The Year of the Red Spring, when Duncan killed Daemon III. So it could be, that when Blackfyres were preparing to invade 7K, it was either Bloodraven or Bittesteel, who revealed to Dunk (in 236), who was his father. Because they wanted him to chose side.

And because Dunk was loyal to Targaryens, and because him being Daemon's son was treatening for Targaryens, and damaging for his relationship with them, that's when he gave an oath of a Kingsguard, to renounce all of his rights as Daemon's heir, and thus stopped being a threat for Targaryens. And to prove to them, that he is on their side, he even killed his own nephew.

2. There's a possible parallel between Dunk's important women, from his childhood and from his adulthood.

For example, Dunk's first love was a girl from Dorne, Tanselle-too-tall. And he compared her with a tall drink of water. Love = water, water = love. Dornishman's wife, Princess Daenerys Targaryen, Water Gardens (possibly the real place of Dunk's birth) = mother, love.

Both Tanselle and Daenerys were from Dorne.

Second important woman in Dunk's adult life was Rohanne Webber.

There was something between them, but in the end she had chosen another man. A man who gave his cloak to Dunk, and named him son. And Dunk cut off Rohanne's braid.

I think, that some time after Duncan was born, Maron Martell demanded from Daenerys to send the baby away, to his father, Daemon. So that's what they did, when the baby was weaned out/became old enough to eat real food and not breast milk. And Maron has figured out, that the child is not his, because his other children were dark-eyed and dark-haired, while this boy was blue-eyed blond. Same thing, as with Robert Baratheon, his multiple bastards, and his three Lannister-children.

On Daemon's wedding day, King Daeron gave him a tract of land near the Blackwater, with the right to raise a castle. Maybe that land was near Duskendale. On the map of Crownlands in the World Book, Duskendale is a part of Crownlands, and it is near Blackwater. So I think, that that's where Daemon has build his castle/mansion (near or in Duskendale), where later lived his family. And where Dunk was brought from Dorne. And because at that time he was just a little baby, in his memory Duskendale was replaced with Dunk. This isn't his real name, that was the place, to which he was brought, after he was separated from his mother.

At that time (in 196, shortly prior Rebellion) Dunk was approximately 3 years old. I think, that he was conceived and born in 193. His parents were reunited during Tournament at King's Landing in 193, the same Tournament in which participated Ser Arlan of Pennytree. I think, that it was some sort of BIG tournament, thus even Daenerys went all the way from Dorne, to attend it. My guess, is that it was tournament in celebration of King Daeron's 40th birthday. He was born in 153 at King's Landing, so in 193 he turned 40 years old, and his birthday was celebrated with tournament, that was held at King's Landing.

So Dunk was brought to Duskendale, to his father's mansion, where lived his children and his wife Rohanne of Tyrosh. Rohanne refused to accept that baby into her household, and demanded from Daemon to sent him away. She didn't wanted a bastard to live in her house, and to be raised with her children (same as Catelyn Stark didn't wanted Jon to stay in Winterfell). So, same as Rohanne Webber refused Dunk in his adult life, in his childhood a different Rohanne (of Tyrosh) also refused him. But a man, who was Rohanne's husband (Eustas Osgrey/Daemon Blackfyre), placed his cloak on Dunk's shoulders, and named him son. Daemon agreed with Rohanne's demands, and temporarily settled Dunk in a different place, and gave him under care of Quentyn Ball. But he didn't refused to accept Dunk as his son, and wanted to legitimize him. So he went to King Daeron, and asked him to legitimize his bastard-son (maybe even without revealing who was that child's mother), but the King refused. This refusal was the real cause of Rebellion.

GRRM said in SSM - Daemon Blackfyre rebelled so many years after Aegon the Unworthy's death for several reasons. One was his growing resentment at having the status of a bastard, and what it meant.

The final straw for Daemon was, that his son was also a bastard, and Daemon could do nothing about it. Because his King refused to legitimize his baby, and even his wife Rohanne refused to accept Dunk as a Blackfyre.

Dunk cut off Rohanne's hair. In some cultures long hair is a symbol of fertility. So the meaning of that gesture, in a parallel of Rohanne Webber to Rohanne of Tyrosh, is that, when Eustas Osgrey has put his cloak on Dunk and called him son, and Dunk cut off his wife's long hair, it means, that, when Daemon accepted Dunk as his son, and rebelled against his King, to make his baby legitimate, in the end it costed him his life, and cut off fertility of Rohanne of Tyrosh. Her husband died, on the same battlefield died her two oldest sons, later Dunk took part in the fall of Rohanne's third son, and personally killed her grandson, Daemon III Blackfyre (the last "numbered" Daemon). Cut off hair - cut off bloodline.

So Tanselle is a parallel to Duncan's mother, and there's two Rohanne's, that are parallels to each other.

On 4/27/2019 at 7:01 PM, Seams said:

I think there are symbolic parents for Dunk in the story I have been reading over and over - The Sworn Sword. Oddly, they are Ser Lucas Longinch and Lady Rohanne Webber.

I think, that your idea is correct, just a bit off.

If Rohanne Webber is a parallel to Rohanne of Tyrosh, who could have became Duncan's step-mother, then Lucas Longinch is a parallel to Duncan's step-father - Maron Martell. Lucas Longinch - LL, Maron Martell - MM. How about this? :)

 

And more.   

Like, maybe, when Quentyn Ball was killed by an unknown archer, that was actually either Bloodraven's agent, or even Bloodraven himself (in shadow-glamor, like his Maynard Plumm persona), Dunk was also there. That's because Quentyn was transporting Dunk, from the place he was temporarily living, to his father. But because Quentyn was killed, Dunk got lost, and it happened close to King's Landing, so eventually Dunk ended up there. Or the archer, whoever he was, took the baby, and brought him to King's Landing, and left him at the Flea Bottom, among orphans and street urchins, to give him a chance to survive. So Bloodraven knows who Dunk is. And it's a parallel to Bloodraven's dwarfs stealing dragon egg at Whitewalls. And in F&B book there was also a similar situation, when someone took a Targaryen Prince, and was killed, while he was transporting that baby, so the baby got lost. Dunk is connected to water, for example his horses were named Thunder and Rain, and about Daemon it was said, that he died under the rain of arrows. So my guess, is that, when Quentyn got off his horse, near a stream to take water, the one who wanted to drink, was little Duncan, not Quentyn himself.

And Dunk's conversation with Daemon, about their fathers, that was actually the same person - " "Was your father large as well?" "I never knew my father, ser." "I am sad to hear it. Mine own sire was taken from me too soon." "

And Dunk's observations in The Hedge Knight about dragonfly among the reeds, whether he is a dragon or a dragonfly - "Another dragonfly was moving across the water, or perhaps it was the same one. What shall it be, Dunk? he asked himself. Dragonflies or dragons? A few days ago he would have answered at once. It was all he had ever dreamed, but now that the prospect was at hand it frightened him."

When Maekar has offered Dunk to join his household at Summerhall, Dunk refused. He has chosen dragonflies instead of dragons. And later, when he joined Kingsguards, he renounced his rights as Daemon's heir, and again has chosen dragonflies. And later Egg named his son Duncan, and that Duncan became the Prince of Dragonflies. Three times dragonflies were chosen above dragons. GRRM does like to use sets of three in his books.

And Maekar offered to Dunk to be trained by his master-at-arms at Summerhall. Masters-at-arms in royal castles train only princes, either legitimate like future Maegor the Cruel, or illegitimate like Daemon I Blackfyre. So Maekar's suggestion could be another clue, that Dunk is actually a "dragon prince".

And in The Sworn Sword there was this scene - " "Our smallfolk need that water for their crops." "Our smallfolk?" Ser Bennis brayed his laughter. "Was I off having a squat when Ser Useless made you his heir? How many smallfolk you figure you got?" " :lmao:

Ser Useless/Eustas Osgrey, if he is a parallel to Daemon, and if Daemon became King of 7K, and did made Dunk his heir, then all smallfolk of 7K would have been Dunk's smallfolk.

Possibly, there are even more clues and hints, but those from above, is what comes to mind first of all.

 

And I totally agree with you, that Barristan Selmy is also a dragonseed, and a parallel to Duncan's story.

I think, that Barristan is a grandson of Aenys Blackfyre. And that he is the father of fAegon, while the boy's mother, septa Lemore, is Lady Jeyne Swann. And the septa, that was escorting Jeyne, when they were attacked by Kingswood Brotherhood, and saved by Barristan, was Shiera Seastar in shadow-glamour (same as Maynard Plumm/Bloodraven). It was actually her magic, not Bloodraven's. That moonstone brooch was her gift to Bloodraven. That septa/Shiera gave to Barristan a love potion, and Jeyne seduced him. And it happened in 281, on the same night, as the real Aegon was conceived at King's Landing, when a comet was passing above. Shiera knew about the comet-prophecy, so she was trying to orchestrate events in her favour, and to artificially create the Promised Prince. In The Sword Sword Egg said, that his sister gave him love potion, and he nearly drunk it. So who prepared that love potion? My guess, is that it was Shiera. Because in the same book Egg said about her, that she is using dark arts, dances with demons, and bathes in blood. And it's a parallel to what happened between Robb Stark, Jeyne Westerling, and Sybell Spicer. Only instead of Robb Stark there was Barristan Selmy, and instead of Jeyne Westerling - Jeyne Swann, and instead of Sybell Spicer - Shiera Seastar.

It's all so vague, and is based on clues from books out of the main series, so no one has figured it out. Except me :smug: Or I'm totally wrong about this :dunce:

Though, whether I'm right or wrong with those theories, there's one thing in which I am absolutely sure - in Dunk&Egg books GRRM is giving clues and foreshadowings important, for what will happen later in the main series.

Edited by Megorova

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Posted (edited)

@Megorova , bravo! Some fun ideas and some of them sound quite plausible.

I have wondered about the symbolism of Dunk cutting Rohanne's hair. As you may have noticed, I am a wordplay maven and the pun on "hair" and "heir" was one of the discoveries that helped me realize that GRRM uses puns as clues for readers. We are told that Rohanne Webber was the matriarch of the modern Lannister family. So I couldn't figure out what it meant that Dunk cut her hair - she went on to have many heirs after that haircut. Maybe your theory is correct, that this is a symbolic cutting of the hair / heirs of Rohanne of Tyrosh, and foreshadows Dunk's role in helping to defeat the Blackfyre rebellions.

I also recently started to wonder whether the braided hair is significant. Dunk didn't just cut her hair (we see Yoren cut Arya's hair; the septas cut Cersei's hair; fire burn off Dany's hair) he cut a long braid. The other character I associate with a long braid is the wildling Val. My speculation is that a long braid represents a serpent, and a serpent is part of the dragon symbolism. (But also related to the sand snakes, the red viper, etc.) If braid = serpent, that could strengthen your Rohanne Webber = Rohanne of Tyrosh parallel, with the latter Rohanne having blood-of-the-dragon children.

I love your theory about the chipped garnet. For the eyes of the wolf-head hilt on Jon Snow's Long Claw, the chipped garnets were obtained by Sam Tarly at Molestown. One anagram of Molestown is "two lemons" and I think lemons are a clue about Targaryens and hidden Targaryens (yes, including Sansa). But your theory about Ser Arlan's chipped garnet coming from the sword Blackfyre would be reinforced by the use of chipped garnets for the new hilt on Long Claw as it is remade for presentation to a bastard Targaryen (Jon Snow).

Edit: This is getting away from Dunk, but now I'm wondering whether Long Claw was really the Mormont family sword. It has a Valyrian steel blade, of course, but Mormont says the bear hilt was damaged so he had the new hilt custom-made for Jon Snow in the shape of a white wolf. But what if the blade was from a different Valyrian steel sword? Such as Blackfyre? Or Dark Sister? Maybe it was entrusted to Mormont based on some prophecy about the rightful heir some day showing up at Castle Black.

I've heard speculation about Old Nan as the lover of Dunk. That may be right but I haven't seen a lot of foreshadowing. I know that @Ran has said that GRRM hadn't completely worked out the Blackfyre backstory until after ACoK. I believe the author must have had parts of the Blackfyre story in mind while he was writing or revising ACoK, even if he didn't have the whole thing written. Old Nan doesn't have as big of a role by ACoK, though, so maybe the author couldn't plant the seeds of her romance because he hadn't fully imagined her past during her big scenes in the first book.

On 4/28/2019 at 11:17 AM, Megorova said:

And Dunk's conversation with Daemon, about their fathers, that was actually the same person - " "Was your father large as well?" "I never knew my father, ser." "I am sad to hear it. Mine own sire was taken from me too soon." "

Love this. Love it. This seems like exactly the kind of thing GRRM would do. Nice catch!

I also suspect that giants are symbolic Targaryens. (Consistent with Ygritte singing The Last of the Giants song to Jon Snow). So Daemon asking whether Dunk's father was large could allude to that symbolism of the family line.

Edited by Seams

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@Seams great thread and thank you for the anagram website, I was thinking of what Mance Rayder stands for and one of the results were A Merry Dance, which reminds me Ashara since she is known for her dance partners at Harrenhall, but dance could be sword fighting too. Dayne Mac Err is another possibility, which would point to a Dayne son who is a bastard? I have hard time believing Egg when it comes to Aerion visiting him because Aerion doesn't have that many brothers. Daeron is older and Aemon is a Maester. Aerion also doesn't lack sisters to marry and indeed doesn't have any desire to marry them since she is married to his cousin. 

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I reread this thread with the intention of recovering my train of thought and getting on with the Dunk & Egg analysis. As is often the case, a tangent caught my attention. But maybe it's an important tangent. So here are some more thoughts on Prince Baelor and King Baelor.

On 5/3/2018 at 9:24 PM, Seams said:

Why does GRRM give us Baelor Breakspear and Baelor the Blessed?

There are only two Baelors in the Targaryen family history and perhaps in all of highborn Westeros, if I've done the search correctly on the wiki. Since they were both beloved, it seems surprising that the name wasn't used to name subsequent Targaryen babies. That GRRM gives us two characters by that name leads me to think that he wants us to compare them.

The following thoughts would require that two earlier inferences are correct. First, that both men are trying to fulfill a predetermined destiny or fate:

On 5/3/2018 at 9:24 PM, Seams said:

I suspect that both men are instrumental in trying to make peace and - my intuition tells me - to circumvent a curse or prophecy.

And, second, that both Baelors deliberately put themselves at risk of death in order that descendants of a relative will ascend to the throne. It seems likely, to me, that the curse or prophecy they anticipate is related to this preferred idea of succession. GRRM doesn't state this directly, so inference is all I have to go on, I admit. Some parallels might support the idea:

We know that the woods witch known as the Ghost of High Heart will make a later prediction about the Prince that was Promised. Maybe there was a similar prediction in previous generations and the two Baelors were keen to arrange circumstances to create favorable odds.

Baelor I

King Baelor avoids having children and tries to prevent his sisters from having children. He seems very upset when 1) his cousin, Naerys Targaryen, the future queen, gives birth to stillborn twins; and 2) his sister, Daena Targaryen, gives birth to a bastard who will be known as Daemon Blackfyre and will become a pretender to the throne. Does Baelor favor the descendants of Naerys but anticipate problems from descendants of himself and his immediate family? Daena's son was fathered by another cousin of Baelor. Aegon, who is the husband of Naerys and the future king Aegon IV. Is King Baelor anxious to prevent Aegon IV from fathering children? Or anxious to prevent potential challengers to Daeron II, the recognized heir to the Iron Throne?

King Baelor deliberately undergoes physical hardship, walking barefoot to Dorne to make peace after the war waged during the reign of his brother, Daeron I Targaryen. While there, he walks through a pit of vipers to free his cousin (I said it was a brother in my earlier post on this thread, but the relationship was actually cousin), Aemon the Dragonknight, who had been taken prisoner while trying to prevent the assassination of Daeron I. Baelor manages to free Aemon but becomes comatose after crossing the viper pit (perhaps due to being bitten by snakes) and Aemon ends up carrying him to Blackhaven (seat of House Durrandon) and then Storm's End (seat of House Baratheon) where he is treated and convalesces for some time before returning to King's Landing.

Why is this cousin Aemon the Dragonknight important to King Baelor? I believe that this Aemon is the real father of Daeron II, first-born son of Queen Naerys who is married to her brother, Aegon IV. Aemon and Naerys loved each other while Aegon clashed with both of his siblings. Daeron II was not like Aegon IV and rumors circulated that the crown prince had been fathered by Aemon, not Aegon. The Dragonknight fought a duel to defend the honor of Queen Naerys and defied the king to enter and win a tournament as a mystery knight, preventing the king from crowning one of his mistresses as the Queen of Love and Beauty and to ensuring that the honor was instead bestowed on Naerys.

GRRM goes to a little bit of trouble to give The Dragonknight a second nickname associated with this mystery knight effort: the Knight of Tears. When I see a single-use name or nickname in ASOIAF, I have learned to suspect an anagram. This is the hidden meaning I suspect is behind Aemon's second nickname:

Knight of Tears = Father to Kings

If this is confirmation of the rumor that Aemon fathered Daeron II, then King Baelor's sacrifices to save Aemon are likely connected to Baelor's other efforts to manipulate or control the lines of Targaryen offspring. Perhaps he was specifically interested in promoting a royal line of descent from Aemon and Naerys.

Prince Baelor

Is is possible that Prince Baelor, oldest son of Daeron II, undertook life and death measures, similar to King Baelor, sacrificing himself and manipulating the pool of heirs to help an "unlikely" heir ascend to the Iron Throne? If so, is he working with Bloodraven to achieve a particular outcome?

On 5/3/2018 at 9:24 PM, Seams said:

Prince Baelor puts his life at risk by participating in the Trial of Seven on behalf of Dunk. Is this like the rescue of Aemon, brother of Baelor the Blessed? If you consider snakes and dragons to be rough equivalents, then Baelor is certainly entering a nest of vipers when he participates in the Trial of Seven. Four princes are involved and each bears dragon armor, helmet or shield, some with sigils having multiple serpentine necks.

Two and three generations after King Baelor, Prince Baelor has two sons. Both sons die in the Great Spring Sickness along with Daeron II. (Has there been a thread to discuss the Great Spring Sickness? I am inclined to believe that Bloodraven really did use the plague to winnow out inconvenient Targaryens in keeping with the accusations made by the septon at Stoney Sept who we will see in The Mystery Knight. That septon also accuses Bloodraven of having poisoned the grandchildren of Prince Baelor in utero. The septon is executed for treason, which raises my suspicions that he was telling the truth. In ASOIAF, Joffrey and Tyrion arrange to silence or kill singers who speak truths that they would rather leave unspoken.)

I'll have to come back to this later, but I want to note some details that are recurring in this Baelor comparison:

  • The Smith (stonemason appointed High Septon, Pate the armorer in The Hedge Knight, Pennytree located between a duck pond and a a blacksmith's forge);
  • An eight-year-old-boy (appointed as High Septon, Egg's age in The Hedge Knight). King Baelor chooses the boy because he thinks the kid can perform miracles. Is the same faith invested in Aegon V? Do Baelor and/or Bloodraven think that Egg will perform miracles if he becomes king?
  • The nest of serpents (already touched upon in an earlier post). I want to add the observation that Pennytree is named after a tree covered with copper pennies, each of which would be embossed with the head of a monarch.  But there is a type of snake called a copperhead. So the wordplay around pennies and serpents (see also Ser Ilyfer the Penniless) could be strengthened if there is a "copperhead" and copper penny connection.
  • The Warrior in a suspended in a cage (Aemon at Wyl, Dunk in the dungeon at Ashford, possibly Brienne being hung before meeting Jaime at Pennytree). Or are we seeing dueling cages, with Baelor locking his sisters in the Maiden Vault while working to free Aemon from the cage at Wyl?

I think we also need to discuss Petyr Baelish. If King Baelor and Prince Baelor both sacrificed themselves to put someone else on the throne, is Baelish part of the same pattern? I suspect that Petry Baelish is descended from Elaena Targaryen, one of the sisters of King Baelor, which would give him an additional connection to this weird self-sacrifice theme associated with Baelor the Blessed. Is Baelish working to put someone else on the Iron Throne? If so, who will be the beneficiary of his efforts?

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@Seams why do you think Aemon is father of Daeron and Aegon is father of Daemon? This will be something I will never understand since Daemon and Daeron don't take after their supposed fathers. Daemon is the Warrior himself and fathered by a glutton, while the other pot bellied one is fathered by THE Dragonknight? I think Daemon isn't son of Aegon and Daeron is trueborn, I may question legitimacy of Daenerys though. 

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@Seams I have a question, it was mentioned cutting braid is connected to Eleana, is it possible GRRM will retcon Blackfyre family tree in F&B and it will be revealed he actually married daughter of Eleana? Is it possible Dunk isn't illegimate but legimate son of Daemon? Do you have any candidate for Daemon's father if he wasn't Aegon IV? I think a Velaryon or Dragonknight are always possible. 

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On 7/26/2019 at 3:35 PM, Jova Snow said:

@Seams why do you think Aemon is father of Daeron and Aegon is father of Daemon? This will be something I will never understand since Daemon and Daeron don't take after their supposed fathers. Daemon is the Warrior himself and fathered by a glutton, while the other pot bellied one is fathered by THE Dragonknight? I think Daemon isn't son of Aegon and Daeron is trueborn, I may question legitimacy of Daenerys though. 

GRRM is obviously setting up a guessing situation about the paternity of these key players in the Targaryen succession. Aside from the rumors about Aemon and Naerys, my best clue for Aemon as the father of Daeron is the anagram I provided: Knight of Tears = Father to Kings. I realize a lot of people don't like anagrams as clues and I sometimes go overboard, so you can disregard this if you like. GRRM went to some trouble to create this second nickname for Aemon the Dragonknight, so I think he wanted to put the clue in front of us. There are also references to tears shed on the night that Naerys was bedded by Aegon. I think that reference to tears alludes to Aemon again, the (k)night of tears.

As for Aegon as the father of Daemon, I think Aegon believed it and we know that he was a prolific father. I can't prove anything, but the story is much better if Daeron and Daemon were both Targaryen heirs but both illegitimate.

I think GRRM definitely wants to fool us with all of the (supposedly) strict formulas about how to recognize whether a child is legitimate or a genetic descendant or not. We know that nature and nurture both play a role, that genes can come from either parent - he even plays around with the possibility of Tyrion as a chimera. I think he is more interested in playing around with the idea of how two people with different strengths or weaknesses can come together to create a "whole" than he is in proving that sons always resemble fathers. In fact, I think he also likes to surprise us with irony. So a son who does not look like his father but instead seems more like his uncle would be exactly the kind of twist GRRM would use to surprise us.

Sam Tarly is not like Randall Tarly (so far, at least). Quentyn and Arianne have the same parents but are not much alike. Arya doesn't look like Sansa, even though they (supposedly) have the same parents. A few examples where GRRM is telling us that we can't take physical similarities as definite evidence of close biological relationships.

6 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@Seams I have a question, it was mentioned cutting braid is connected to Eleana, is it possible GRRM will retcon Blackfyre family tree in F&B and it will be revealed he actually married daughter of Eleana? Is it possible Dunk isn't illegimate but legimate son of Daemon? Do you have any candidate for Daemon's father if he wasn't Aegon IV? I think a Velaryon or Dragonknight are always possible. 

Again, I have only guesses and theories about Dunk's paternity (as explained earlier in this thread and including interesting points from Megorova). If he is a son of Daemon, it fits with other hints and themes I am seeing around the unified "whole" created when he teams up with Egg: Blackfyre + Targaryen, Big + Little, Strong + Smart, Diplomatic + Wicked (I think Egg is going to have a strong tendency toward dark magic, poisoning and subterfuge as the stories evolve).

I doubt GRRM will ever retcon or clarify the Targaryen family tree, more than he already has. He likes to leave things ambiguous - on the surface, at least. If we can put together indirect clues that prove a theory, that is something else.

Eleana's descendants are Plumms, Waters (and Longwaters) and Penroses. I suspect Littlefinger is also a descendant of Eleana. Are you saying you think Dunk married a daughter of Eleana? That would be very cool.

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@Seams

Just because Daeron had a different personality than Aegon, doesn't mean, that Aegon wasn't his father. Because children are made of genes from both of their parents. It's likely, that Daeron II was more like his mother, Queen Naerys, than like his father.

And about Daemon Blackfyre and Aegon's gluttony - Aegon became fat and ugly, only when he was in his late 30s-early 40s. When Aegon was young, he was slim, and he was a good warrior, not as good as Dragonknight, but not a weakling. Thus, just because Daemon was a renowned knight, while his father at that time was fat and ill, doesn't mean, that Aegon wasn't Daemon's father.

While it's a possibility, that Daeron was Dragonknight's child, the option, that Daemon also wasn't Aegon's, is close to zero. Because it's very unlikely, that Daena not only managed to escape from Maidenvault and hook up with Aegon, but that she also, at about that same time, had found a different man, with whom she also had a fling, and that man, same as Aegon, had Valyrian genes, because Daena's resulting child had 100% Valyrian looks.

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@Seams I meant to ask if it is possible when Blackfyres escaped they couldn't save one child though we don't know if lady Blackfyre gave birth to post mortem child and how many children she had before the rebellion. 

@Megorova I am questioning the fact Daena had a thing with Aegon in the first place, not assuming she had relationship with the different Valyrian men

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3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

I am questioning the fact Daena had a thing with Aegon in the first place

Maybe, they didn't had a thing, in a romantical sense, or that she couldn't find some other man to have sex with. Maybe, she had specifically chosen him to give him her virginity, and in exchange for that, they made an agreement, that if she will get pregnant, and will give birth to a boy, then later, when/if Aegon will become King (which was highly likely, because Baelor wasn't going to leave an heir, and Viserys was already old at that time), he will legitimize their son, and thus eventually this child of theirs was supposed to become the King of 7K. And Daena had this idea because of what happened years earlier - Aegon had sex with three maiden-daughters of Lord Butterwell, and when one of them got pregnant, he gave dragon's egg for her son (Ambrose Butterwell). That girl was just a Lord's daughter, and Butterwell wasn't even a Lord of a Kingdom. If Aegon was willing to give a dragon's egg for that girl's son, then what would he have been willing to give to a son of a Targaryen Princess? Possibly, a promise to give him the crown of Targaryens?

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@Megorova I don't think Daena needed a Promise from Aegon, he seemed to prefer his family members close to him wether or not the relationship was strained, we can see that with Manfred Lothson as well whom I suspect could be his son, but really a child will only ruin Daena's chances of support for ruling, she has no allies for being locked in Maidenvault and has a bastard she chose to keep, even though a virtuous queen would be liked more, I think for whatever reason Daena loved this man. 

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