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Theon Durden


Lost Melnibonean

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It's been a while since we've had a good hooded man thread. The Theon Durden theory is the one that I like the best. Of course, it was around well before I started spouting off mumbo jumbo on these forums. 

For any noobs who might not know what it is, it suggests that the hooded man seen by Reek in The Ghost of Winterfell was a vision of his alter ego, Theon, similar to Tyler Durden in the movie Fight Club. 

The author didn't name the so-called Hooded Man in the text because Theon was seeing the ghost of his former self. And I expect the identity will never be revealed unless The George does so in an SSM. The Hooded Man, who might or might not have been wearing a hood, was the ghost of Reek's former self.

It is known.

First, reread the first Theon chapter in Clash. Consider the vibe about Theon at the beginning of that chapter and the vibe about the Hooded Man. By the end of that chapter his father had taken him down a peg and set him on the path of betrayal.

From A Ghost in Winterfell, Dance:

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger.

"Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer."

"I'm not. I never I was ironborn."

"False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?"

"The gods are not done with me," Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick's cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell's groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. "Lord Ramsay is not done with me."

The man looked, and laughed. "I leave you to him, then."

Would a recognizable Glover, Mollen, or other Stark loyalist be striding around occupied Winterfell if he were striking folks down from the shadows? No, this is a brave and haughty man confronting Reek face-to-face. He was wearing a hooded cloak just like Theon was at the beginning of Theon I in Clash.

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Obedient to his wishes, the Myraham beat her way past the point with her sails snapping and her captain cursing the wind and his crew and the follies of highborn lordlings. Theon drew the hood of his cloak up against the spray, and looked for home.

Theon I, Clash 11

Second, Mance's spearwives tacitly admitted to the killings except for Little Walder so there is no Stark loyalist sneaking around and killing Boltons and Freys.

Third, the Hooded Man is walking in the opposite direction of Reek. This is the ghost of Theon's former self. Reek's character is completely opposite to Theon's.

Fourth, Theon had sworn his allegiance to Robb and thought of Robb as a brother making Robb's brothers his own. He dreamed of wedding Sansa, becoming their brother and Ned's son in truth. Of course he betrayed Robb and held out that he had murdered his brothers. (False is all he ever was.) Accordingly, his former self named him Turncloak and Kinslayer. Theon, who had been chastised by his father for naming Robb a brother, meekly denied the kinslaying title not because he didn't actually kill the Stark boys, but because he was not actually a Stark. The ghost of his former self knew better. 

Fifth, Reek's lack of fear was odd because he had been afraid of everyone ever since he had become Reek. But he had no reason to fear his own ghost. 

Sixth, he always took care to conceal his maimed hands, but to the ghost of his former self he displayed the proof that he was no longer who he had been.

Finally, consider Theon's ark and the progression of the titles of his POV chapters from Clash and through Dance. He was Theon and became Reek, until something awakened in The Prince of Winterfell. Then he was the Turncloak just as his former self accused him in the next chapter, A Ghost in Winterfell. And then he was Theon again. 

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This looks like a subtle hint that Theon was not wholly Ironman when he returned to Pyke, just as his father assumed...

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A longship would have made the crossing in half the time as well. The Myraham was a wallowing tub, if truth be told, and he would not care to be aboard her in a storm. Still, Theon could not be too unhappy. He was here, undrowned, and the voyage had offered certain other amusements. He put an arm around the captain's daughter. "Summon me when we make Lordsport," he told her father. "We'll be below, in my cabin." He led the girl away aft, while her father watched them go in sullen silence.

Theon I, Clash 11.

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I am not sure if this theory is true, but it is a good one and I think it is plausible. As so, I am going to write the rest of this post in support of such the idea.

If the Theon Durden theory is true, I suspect that GRRM may possibly be applying the "through the looking glass" inner reflection idea. The Wall is the largest looking glass on Westeros as a whole, but many characters in the story are going through and identity crisis of sorts, including our Iron Man, Theon. Theon is looking through the surface glass, maybe his ego, and is getting to the silver (healing) below. That can be a bitch and a half to face, but necessary for character development. Also, with the looking glass in literature means to view the opposite side, the twilight side. Just ask Patchface.

And I totes agree with the chapter naming scheme and how the next chapter is "Theon" once again. I am going to add the paragraph to this Theon/Ghost chapter that starts just before what was quoted in the OP 'cuz I feel it adds to the details.

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

He fled quickly, before they changed their minds. His tormentors would not follow him outside. Not so long as there was food and drink within, willing women and warm fires. As he left the hall, Abel was singing "The Maids That Bloom in Spring."
Outside the snow was coming down so heavily that Theon could not see more than three feet ahead of him. He found himself alone in a white wilderness, walls of snow looming up to either side of him chest high. When he raised his head, the snowflakes brushed his cheeks like cold soft kisses. He could hear the sound of music from the hall behind him. A soft song now, and sad. For a moment he felt almost at peace.
Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer."

The scene with Theon and the hooded man somewhat reflects what we see with Brienne as well.

A Feast for Crows - Brienne IV

"You leave me down here alone, I could bloody well steal your horses," Crabb called up from below. "Best you get them up the ladder too, m'lady." When she ignored him, he went on to say, "It's going to rain tonight. A cold hard rain. You and Pods will sleep all snug and warm, and poor old Dick will be shivering down here by myself." He shook his head, muttering, as he made a bed on a pile of hay. "I never knew such a mistrustful maid as you."
Brienne curled up beneath her cloak, with Podrick yawning at her side. I was not always wary, she might have shouted down at Crabb. When I was a little girl I believed that all men were as noble as my father. Even the men who told her what a pretty girl she was, how tall and bright and clever, how graceful when she danced. It was Septa Roelle who had lifted the scales from her eyes. "They only say those things to win your lord father's favor," the woman had said. "You'll find truth in your looking glass, not on the tongues of men." It was a harsh lesson, one that left her weeping, but it had stood her in good stead at Harrenhal when Ser Hyle and his friends had played their game. A maid has to be mistrustful in this world, or she will not be a maid for long, she was thinking, as the rain began to fall.
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3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It's been a while since we've had a good hooded man thread. The Theon Durden theory is the one that I like the best. Of course, it was around well before I started spouting off mumbo jumbo on these forums. 

For any noobs who might not know what it is, it suggests that the hooded man seen by Reek in The Ghost of Winterfell was a vision of his alter ego, Theon, similar to Tyler Durden in the movie Fight Club. 

The author didn't name the so-called Hooded Man in the text because Theon was seeing the ghost of his former self. And I expect the identity will never be revealed unless The George does so in an SSM. The Hooded Man, who might or might not have been wearing a hood, was the ghost of Reek's former self.

It is known.

First, reread the first Theon chapter in Clash. Consider the vibe about Theon at the beginning of that chapter and the vibe about the Hooded Man. By the end of that chapter his father had taken him down a peg and set him on the path of betrayal.

From A Ghost in Winterfell, Dance:

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger.

"Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer."

"I'm not. I never I was ironborn."

"False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?"

"The gods are not done with me," Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick's cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell's groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. "Lord Ramsay is not done with me."

The man looked, and laughed. "I leave you to him, then."

Would a recognizable Glover, Mollen, or other Stark loyalist be striding around occupied Winterfell if he were striking folks down from the shadows? No, this is a brave and haughty man confronting Reek face-to-face. He was wearing a hooded cloak just like Theon was at the beginning of Theon I in Clash.

Theon I, Clash 11

Second, Mance's spearwives tacitly admitted to the killings except for Little Walder so there is no Stark loyalist sneaking around and killing Boltons and Freys.

Third, the Hooded Man is walking in the opposite direction of Reek. This is the ghost of Theon's former self. Reek's character is completely opposite to Theon's.

Fourth, Theon had sworn his allegiance to Robb and thought of Robb as a brother making Robb's brothers his own. He dreamed of wedding Sansa, becoming their brother and Ned's son in truth. Of course he betrayed Robb and held out that he had murdered his brothers. (False is all he ever was.) Accordingly, his former self named him Turncloak and Kinslayer. Theon, who had been chastised by his father for naming Robb a brother, meekly denied the kinslaying title not because he didn't actually kill the Stark boys, but because he was not actually a Stark. The ghost of his former self knew better. 

Fifth, Reek's lack of fear was odd because he had been afraid of everyone ever since he had become Reek. But he had no reason to fear his own ghost. 

Sixth, he always took care to conceal his maimed hands, but to the ghost of his former self he displayed the proof that he was no longer who he had been.

Finally, consider Theon's ark and the progression of the titles of his POV chapters from Clash and through Dance. He was Theon and became Reek, until something awakened in The Prince of Winterfell. Then he was the Turncloak just as his former self accused him in the next chapter, A Ghost in Winterfell. And then he was Theon again. 

I would add a 7th, the man with the hooded cloak wore no sigil of any house he served. Any man in winterfell would be able to be identified by the house he served. Tensions are very high in the castle, and I do not think a man would wish to be misidentified as a potential infiltrator 

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I guess the Theon Durden theory is as probable as any concerning the hooded man, though it comes across as unsatisfactory, IMO.  I agree that I don’t think it will ever be revealed by the author.  

However, there are a couple lines that give me doubts.  First, when they come face-to-face, their eyes meet briefly, as in Theon was surprised by the HM and quickly looked away, and possibly didn’t recognize him.  Then, the man put a hand on his dagger, as if he were ready to silence Theon should he try to raise an alarm.  At least, that was how I took it on my initial read.  

I had/have no idea who the HM is, and Theon Durden perhaps works as well as any other, but that initial surprise of the HM running into Theon, and him seemingly (to me) worried that Theon may recognize him, or raise an alarm, doesn’t seem to fit.

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I don't see it. I know I may be proven wrong in the future, because I think it is possible. So, it's not like some insane crackpot that is impossible. Still, I really don't see it. :dunno:

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3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Another point in favour of this theory, is that Theon was always smiling and laughing, particularly at others' misfortunes. 

Or it's ironic comeuppance. 

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In favor:

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The sky was a gloom of cloud, the woods dead and frozen. Roots grabbed at Theon's feet as he ran, and bare branches lashed his face, leaving thin stripes of blood across his cheeks. He crashed through heedless, breathless, icicles flying to pieces before him. Mercy, he sobbed. From behind came a shuddering howl that curdled his blood. Mercy, mercy. When he glanced back over his shoulder he saw them coming, great wolves the size of horses with the heads of small children. Oh, mercy, mercy. Blood dripped from their mouths black as pitch, burning holes in the snow where it fell. Every stridebrought them closer. Theon tried to run faster, but his legs would not obey. The trees all had faces, and they were laughing at him, laughing, and the howl came again. He could smell the hot breath of the beasts behind him, a stink of brimstone and corruption. They're dead, dead, I saw them killed, he tried to shout, I saw their heads dipped in tar, but when he opened his mouth only a moan emerged, and then something touched him and he whirled, shouting . . . 
. . . flailing for the dagger he kept by his bedside and managing only to knock it to the floor. Wex danced away from him. Reek stood behind the mute, his face lit from below by the candle he carried. "What?" Theon cried. Mercy. "What do you want? Why are you in my bedchamber? Why?"

 

And just another option:
 
Quote

Brynden thought a moment, then nodded a brusque agreement. "As you say. It's the long way home, but I'm more like to get there. I'll wait for you below." He went striding off, his cloak swirling behind him.

 
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2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

In favor:

And just another option:
 
 

The idea that it's the Blackfish makes the least sense to me. He would be very easy to recognise, for the Freys especially. Even if he did manage to conceal himself, which is conceivable, I don't really understand why he would go north. His nephew and his queen are heading west, and the key people to take revenge on, the Freys and the Lannisters are in the south. He would be a bit of a fish out of water (hilarious pun intended and not at all regretted) in the North, while he would have plenty of willing allies in the Riverlands, and would know the terrain.

Like all these theories, it is of course possible, but I don't think very likely. 

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3 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The idea that it's the Blackfish makes the least sense to me. He would be very easy to recognise, for the Freys especially. Even if he did manage to conceal himself, which is conceivable, I don't really understand why he would go north. His nephew and his queen are heading west, and the key people to take revenge on, the Freys and the Lannisters are in the south. He would be a bit of a fish out of water (hilarious pun intended and not at all regretted) in the North, while he would have plenty of willing allies in the Riverlands, and would know the terrain.

Like all these theories, it is of course possible, but I don't think very likely. 

I’m not gonna argue with you, I’m not sure exactly why Brynden would be there, unless he got wind of (f)Arya and was there to try and save his princess (queen?)... just throwing the option out there since he is missing, wears a cloak while striding, and has an odd semi familiar relation to Theon. He also helped raise Petyr, who was another adopted semi-sibling like Theon.

Honestly, not sure who I even want or believe it is...

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On 4/8/2018 at 11:11 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

It's been a while since we've had a good hooded man thread. The Theon Durden theory is the one that I like the best. Of course, it was around well before I started spouting off mumbo jumbo on these forums. 

I used to really focus on the HM thing. Read the threads.  People came up with good candidates.  I was constantly changing my mind. The only one I didn’t agreed with was Theon Durden

This next part was not an original idea on my part. Another poster mentioned it. I found it interesting. Without going into detail, the HM is Howland Reed.

Striding across the yard implies confidence. At night all cloaks look black. It says “they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly”       I may be taller or shorter than you.  When we meet, come face to face, I can look you in the eye. Problem with the Howland idea is other people would notice a man short in stature wearing a green cloak.

How would a man get into WF?      Adjusting my antennae.      Theon takes Dustin to the crypts in The Turncloak. The HM scene takes place in Ghost of WF. In Theon, the drums stop and a war horn blows. In that same Theon chapter Mance decides the time is ready to rescue fArya. I'm insinuating the HM came from outside WF to meet with Mance or one of the Starkies.

The shiny attractive tinfoil is that there is a back entrance to the crypts that seem to be a rather large cave.

The boring thought is that most likely the HM scene was thrown in to muddy the waters as to who is doing the killings.  I do like a good HM thread.

Thanks.

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Well Theon always had identity issues, even well before Ramsay got his hands on him. His mind projecting his alter personality into physical form would be a fitting form of bringing the issue to a climax. Durden does the things Reek/Theon can't and maybe he'll find himself in the process.

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I used to really focus on the HM thing. Read the threads.  People came up with good candidates.  I was constantly changing my mind. The only one I didn’t agreed with was Theon Durden

This next part was not an original idea on my part. Another poster mentioned it. I found it interesting. Without going into detail, the HM is Howland Reed.

Striding across the yard implies confidence. At night all cloaks look black. It says “they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly”       I may be taller or shorter than you.  When we meet, come face to face, I can look you in the eye. Problem with the Howland idea is other people would notice a man short in stature wearing a green cloak.

How would a man get into WF?      Adjusting my antennae.      Theon takes Dustin to the crypts in The Turncloak. The HM scene takes place in Ghost of WF. In Theon, the drums stop and a war horn blows. In that same Theon chapter Mance decides the time is ready to rescue fArya. I'm insinuating the HM came from outside WF to meet with Mance or one of the Starkies.

The shiny attractive tinfoil is that there is a back entrance to the crypts that seem to be a rather large cave.

The boring thought is that most likely the HM scene was thrown in to muddy the waters as to who is doing the killings.  I do like a good HM thread.

Thanks.

Other than the obvious reason (people, even people in ASOIAF, don't usually have conversations with, and describe, their alter egos), the only reason for the reader to assume it's not Reek's alter ego as the reader reads the text (rather than those of us who have taken these books apart piece by piece): Theon suggests that he could be the man striking down Bolton's men from the shadows. But we laAnd the problem you cite above is a problem for any other character. Any Stark loyalist like Robett Glover or the Blackfish or Hal Mollen would be recognized and taken into custody or killed. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Well Theon always had identity issues, even well before Ramsay got his hands on him. His mind projecting his alter personality into physical form would be a fitting form of bringing the issue to a climax. Durden does the things Reek/Theon can't and maybe he'll find himself in the process.

Yes! I think that's the most important part of this theory. 

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12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Other than the obvious reason (people, even people in ASOIAF, don't usually have conversations with, and describe, their alter egos), the only reason for the reader to assume it's not Reek's alter ego as the reader reads the text (rather than those of us who have taken these books apart piece by piece): Theon suggests that he could be the man striking down Bolton's men from the shadows. But we laAnd the problem you cite above is a problem for any other character. Any Stark loyalist like Robett Glover or the Blackfish or Hal Mollen would be recognized and taken into custody or killed. 

Unless it was someone not many would recognize. That's personally why I always thought it was Howland. The issue with that of course is how Howland would recognize Theon.

Anyway, I'm not convinced by Theon Durden. It's a great theory, and very likely if I'm being honest, but I just don't see it. I personally find it about as likely as any other and I agree that we'll probably never find out.

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47 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Unless it was someone not many would recognize. That's personally why I always thought it was Howland. The issue with that of course is how Howland would recognize Theon.

Anyway, I'm not convinced by Theon Durden. It's a great theory, and very likely if I'm being honest, but I just don't see it. I personally find it about as likely as any other and I agree that we'll probably never find out.

If it were Howland Reed, shouldn't his slight stature have been noted? And the vibe from that figure--it doesn't sound very crannogmanesque to me...

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On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 11:11 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

snip

I was firmly in the Hallis Mollen camp until I read this:

https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/the-hooded-man-uncloaked/

I'm usually not one to buy into a glamour theory, but this is one of the better ones. It would also explain how he could walk around so openly within the castle walls.

Another little side theory deals with that little trip to the crypts. There was a good couple of feet of snow on the ground by that time, so if someone did want to enter the castle through a secret passage in the crypts they would first have to have someone remove all the debris on the entrance and then they would need to provide cover for their footprints leading back to the areas where footprints are common. Dragging a team of men out to the crypts to check on Ned's bones serves both purposes nicely -- and it was right after that that the murders began.

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