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Dany’s sins verse Stannis’

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Spoilers ahead up to Season 6

It is interesting how people can forget Dany’s Sins but fail to forgive Stannis for his.

Example 1- They are both Kinslayers

Stannis is infamous for his assasssination of Renly. Yet people seem to forget that Dany estential killed her brother. Yes many do claim that this was Drogo and yes I most certainly agree but Dany didn’t even try to stop it despite her brother’s pleas, so she is at least accountable in some shape or form.

Some may claim that Danny had no choice because Visaerys broke the law by carrying his weapon in the city. This is the same circumstance for Stannis. Evenly was breaking the law of succession and estentially destroying any form of a peace in Westeros. 

Then it comes down to Shireen. Yes this is dreadful and I can’t deny it but the intentions were good. Stannis’ intentions was to sacrifice Shireen so that he could become Assor Ahai and save the world. In my book any man who would be willing to kill their child to save the rest of the world deserves to be king. 

Example 2 - Justice

Stannis burns people and so does Dany so this is a fun one to compare. The first proper example we have of Stannis burning someone is the burning of his brother by law. Now the show doesn’t explain this but in the books Stannis’ BIL went behind Stannis’ back in the attempt to make peace with the Lannisters. This is treason and lawfully Stannis executes him. Up at the wall Stannis executes Mande Rayder after offering him mercy. MR refused and as an enemy Stannis had a right to Kill him. 

Dany on the other hand crucified the masters of Mareen and burns a couple alive (potential murdering some innocent masters). She fails to give Justice or mercy and yet this flaw is over looked.

 

This isn’t a post to admire Stannis or to hate Dany. I like both characters and find them foils of each other. I just don’t like the hypocrisy when looking at these characters but hey everyone’s got their favourites.

 

I would like to hear about other people’s view on the matter.

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Posted (edited)

Ok. Yes. Big difference here. I'll go point by point.

1. Kinslayer

Stannis killed his brother. True. But, people forget that Renly committed treason by stealing his brother's banner men and advancing his inferior claim to the throne. Stannis gave him the opportunity to surrender, and even offered to name Renly his heir. He refused. The punishment for treason is death. Stannis was within his rights by all the laws of gods and men to kill Renly and take back his banner men. Not only that it was his duty to do so. Not just in service to the war and the liberation of the kingdom from tyrannical Lannister rule, but to protect the lives of the Baratheon bannermen on both sides. He executed one traitor and saved both sides from a needles bloody conflict.

 

Stannis sacrificed Shireen. He also saved the world. He sacrificed the one person he ever truly loved to postpone winter. This allowed the Starks to take back and unify the North and it gave the realm time to prepare a defense strategy against the White Walkers. Had Stannis not taken this action winter would only have gotten worse. His army was completely unable to move. His men froze and starved. Yet a season later the Starks made the same trip unimpeded by snow. Jon Snow fought at Winterfell in the MUD when Stannis fought in the ICE. Stannis was selfless. He sacrificed everything he had to protect the realm at the expense of his life, his men's life, his family and his house. He did so not because he wanted to but because he was King and it was his duty to do so. No other single character is that important. Without King Stannis, everybody would have died. The dead would have run over an undefended and divided North (the first best defense) and by the time anyone in the south understood what was happening they would be under siege. King Stannis Baratheon is a hero.

As far as Daenerys goes she watched her brother die as a bystandard. She isn't really responsible for his death but she didn't stand in the way either. Visaerys and Drogo are far more responsible for this event transpiring. 

 

2. Justice 

Oh boy. Let's take two examples here. Stannis defeating Mance Raider's army and Daenerys defeating the Lannister army. Both Stannis and Daenerys won decisive victorys and wanted the defeated army to join their cause. 

Stannis offered the free folk full pardons and land titles south of the wall in exchange for their help in taking Winterfell. Mance Rayder refused. Mance Rayder was a deserter from the Night's Watch and was sentenced to death as is the law in Westeros. Stannis executed him. One man. He then went on to save the lives of every wildling North of the wall. His ships and sailors were used to evacuate Hardholm. They refused to fight for him and he still saved all of their lives and their family's lives and executed ONE man condemned by law.

Danerys gave her prisoners a single ultimatum. "Join me or Die." And proceeded to burn everyone who refused to join her ranks even wiping out an entire Noble house.

I'll leave you to decide which is more Just. 

Beyond this one very fair comparison, we have Daenerys crusifying hundreds of people in response to an equal attrocity. What is the old adage? Two wrongs don't make a right. Some of the people she crusified even fought against the initial action. Stannis has nothing like this in his past to compare. That says it all right there.

Edited by Lord Stannis-The True King
Grammar

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2 hours ago, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

Stannis sacrificed Shireen. He also saved the world. He sacrificed the one person he ever truly loved to postpone winter. This allowed the Starks to take back and unify the North and it gave the realm time to prepare a defense strategy against the White Walkers. Had Stannis not taken this action winter would only have gotten worse. His army was completely unable to move. His men froze and starved. Yet a season later the Starks made the same trip unimpeded by snow. Jon Snow fought at Winterfell in the MUD when Stannis fought in the ICE. Stannis was selfless. He sacrificed everything he had to protect the realm at the expense of his life, his men's life, his family and his house. He did so not because he wanted to but because he was King and it was his duty to do so. No other single character is that important. Without King Stannis, everybody would have died. The dead would have run over an undefended and divided North (the first best defense) and by the time anyone in the south understood what was happening they would be under siege. King Stannis Baratheon is a hero.

 

 

LMFAO !!!!! 

Congrats. This might be the most incredible piece of head cannon totally at odds with the intention of the narrative ever. I am fucking impressed.

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2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

 

 

LMFAO !!!!! 

Congrats. This might be the most incredible piece of head cannon totally at odds with the intention of the narrative ever. I am fucking impressed.

People just aren't very observant. It's cause and effect. I always saw Stannis as the foil for Ned Stark. One of my favorite scenes that describes this perfectly is in the season 1 episode Bealor. The conversation between Aemon Targarian and Jon Snow. Maester Aemon asks Jon if he knows why the Night's Watch can have no wives and father no children. "So they will not love. LOVE IS THE DEATH OF DUTY." He says that given the choice most men would prioritize their family over their duty to the realm. He then asks what Jon thinks his father would do. Jon replies that his father would always do what is right. No matter what. Aemon says that his father is "one man in ten thousand". "Most of us are not so strong. What is honor campared to a woman's love? What is duty compared to the feel of a newborn son in your arms? Or a brother's smile?" "We're all human. And we all do our duty when there's no cost to it. Honor comes easy then. Yet, sooner or later, in every man's life there comes a day when it is not easy. A day when he must choose!"

As we all know Ned Stark was considered an honorable man. He supported Stannis as the heir to the Iron Throne because he WAS the heir. But when he had to choose between his duty and his family he chose his family. He falsely confessed to treason and proclaimed Joffry the true King plunging the seven kingdoms into a civil war that still hasn't ended. All to save his two daughters. All the lives lost in this conflict to save two people. In the end his love was the death of his duty. 

Stannis had a similar choice to make. To spare his daughter at the expense of the kingdom or to sacrifice her to ensure it's future and save countless lives in the process. He chose Duty. Stannis Baratheon was that one man in ten thousand Measter Aemon referenced. He loved Shireen. She was possibly the only person he ever loved and he still chose his duty. Why? Because he was King. And a King has a greater responsibility to his people than to his family. A King must be selfless to be effective. And Stannis is the only truly selfless character in the whole series. 

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8 hours ago, Admeral said:

Spoilers ahead up to Season 6

Example 1- They are both Kinslayers

Stannis is infamous for his assasssination of Renly. Yet people seem to forget that Dany estential killed her brother. Yes many do claim that this was Drogo and yes I most certainly agree but Dany didn’t even try to stop it despite her brother’s pleas, so she is at least accountable in some shape or form.

Some may claim that Danny had no choice because Visaerys broke the law by carrying his weapon in the city. This is the same circumstance for Stannis. Evenly was breaking the law of succession and estentially destroying any form of a peace in Westeros. 

Some would claim that and they'd be wrong. Viserys breaks the law by carrying a weapon in the sacred city and then threatens to kill the Khal's wife and unborn child  in front of Drogo and the entire feast.  Sacred city or no, everyone present knew Viserys was a dead man, Dany included.  As you mentioned, Drogo killed him, with no encouragement or command from Dany. There is no parallel here.

9 hours ago, Admeral said:

Example 2 - Justice

Stannis burns people and so does Dany so this is a fun one to compare. The first proper example we have of Stannis burning someone is the burning of his brother by law. Now the show doesn’t explain this but in the books Stannis’ BIL went behind Stannis’ back in the attempt to make peace with the Lannisters. This is treason and lawfully Stannis executes him. Up at the wall Stannis executes Mande Rayder after offering him mercy. MR refused and as an enemy Stannis had a right to Kill him. 

Dany on the other hand crucified the masters of Mareen and burns a couple alive (potential murdering some innocent masters). She fails to give Justice or mercy and yet this flaw is over looked.

Yeah, and her advisors are telling her to take even more extreme actions.  What's the context for these actions?  Given the same circumstances, would Stannis have shown more restraint?

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48 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Some would claim that and they'd be wrong. Viserys breaks the law by carrying a weapon in the sacred city and then threatens to kill the Khal's wife and unborn child  in front of Drogo and the entire feast.  Sacred city or no, everyone present knew Viserys was a dead man, Dany included.  As you mentioned, Drogo killed him, with no encouragement or command from Dany. There is no parallel here.

Exactly.  Viserys threatened Drogo's unborn son. Once he did that, Viserys sealed his fate.

I think its interesting that the Tully's house words are Family.Duty.Honor in that order.  But we should also see the consequences for Stannis actions.  While Ned lost his head, his daughters both eventually came home.  He was trying to give them a chance.  Stannis lost his daughter AND his life AND his house is no more (I doubt that he counts Gendry as being part of his house).  I think Ned and the Starks ended up with a better bargain than Stannis and the Baratheons.  Also Stannis failed in his duty to his daughter.  Most people think especially in Westeros that Stannis has a duty to his daughter and that she has a duty to him in turn.  I doubt that anybody would think that a person who failed in his duty as a father would make a good king.  Also what he did to Shireen was dishonorable (and reprehensible).  And I doubt that anybody would follow a king that is dishonorable.  Stannis failed to heed the Tully house words of Family.Duty.Honor. 

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12 minutes ago, goldenmaps said:

Exactly.  Viserys threatened Drogo's unborn son. Once he did that, Viserys sealed his fate.

I think its interesting that the Tully's house words are Family.Duty.Honor in that order.  But we should also see the consequences for Stannis actions.  While Ned lost his head, his daughters both eventually came home.  He was trying to give them a chance.  Stannis lost his daughter AND his life AND his house is no more (I doubt that he counts Gendry as being part of his house).  I think Ned and the Starks ended up with a better bargain than Stannis and the Baratheons.  Also Stannis failed in his duty to his daughter.  Most people think especially in Westeros that Stannis has a duty to his daughter and that she has a duty to him in turn.  I doubt that anybody would think that a person who failed in his duty as a father would make a good king.  Also what he did to Shireen was dishonorable (and reprehensible).  And I doubt that anybody would follow a king that is dishonorable.  Stannis failed to heed the Tully house words of Family.Duty.Honor. 

It is true that Stannis had a duty to his daughter. He also had a duty to his people. As King he had to consider the bigger picture and take his own feelings out of the equation. If he hadn't, literally all of Westeros would have died. I don't think you understand the strength that took. Stannis lost his daughter, and his life and his house (until Gendry is revealed to be the true born son of Robert and Cersei). He sacrificed it all for his people. So they might live. So Westeros could have a chance at defeating the White Walkers. He was noble and strong. He did what had to be done. What no one else could do. He protected the realm. It only cost him everything he had to give. Selfless.

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22 minutes ago, goldenmaps said:

Exactly.  Viserys threatened Drogo's unborn son. Once he did that, Viserys sealed his fate.

I think its interesting that the Tully's house words are Family.Duty.Honor in that order.  But we should also see the consequences for Stannis actions.  While Ned lost his head, his daughters both eventually came home.  He was trying to give them a chance.  Stannis lost his daughter AND his life AND his house is no more (I doubt that he counts Gendry as being part of his house).  I think Ned and the Starks ended up with a better bargain than Stannis and the Baratheons.  Also Stannis failed in his duty to his daughter.  Most people think especially in Westeros that Stannis has a duty to his daughter and that she has a duty to him in turn.  I doubt that anybody would think that a person who failed in his duty as a father would make a good king.  Also what he did to Shireen was dishonorable (and reprehensible).  And I doubt that anybody would follow a king that is dishonorable.  Stannis failed to heed the Tully house words of Family.Duty.Honor. 

Interesting analyzing it in terms of the Tully House words. Very cool. 

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1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

Interesting analyzing it in terms of the Tully House words. Very cool. 

I think that the Tully motto will become important since we have three Tullys in the North (Sansa, Arya and bran) :)

I think GRMM was using the story of agamemnon (father) and iphigenia (daughter) in relation to stannis amd shireen.  Father sacrificed daughter for favorable winds to go fight the Trojan war.  But when father came home, Clytemnesta (mother of iphi, wife of aga) was so angry she took a lover and they killed father.  Orestes  (son) was conflicted about his duties to both his parents but ended up killing mom anyway and being hounded by furies.  I think GRMM wanted to point out the consequences of killing shireen.

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20 hours ago, goldenmaps said:

Exactly.  Viserys threatened Drogo's unborn son. Once he did that, Viserys sealed his fate.

 

That’s the point I’m making. Renly sealed his fate when he rebelled against Stannis and ignored the line of success. Just as Visaerys sealed his fate with the threat. Yet Stannis is constantly atrackec for being a kinslayer

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Just now, Admeral said:

That’s the point I’m making. Renly sealed his fate when he rebelled against Stannis and ignored the line of success. Just as Visaerys sealed his fate with the threat. Yet Stannis is constantly atrackec for being a kinslayer

I think the two situations were different.  Viserys threatened to harm Dany and Drogo's son.  And I doubt that Dany could of done anything in that situation.  I doubt Dany really had the power to change Drogo's mind. 

With Stannis, Renly was just in the way.  He might have threatened his power, but Renly did not threaten Stannis's life. It was always under Stannis's control to not use a shadow baby against him. 

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26 minutes ago, Admeral said:

That’s the point I’m making. Renly sealed his fate when he rebelled against Stannis and ignored the line of success. Just as Visaerys sealed his fate with the threat. Yet Stannis is constantly atrackec for being a kinslayer

I think most people consider a direct personal threat to someone’s personal self and child a worse affront than what Renly did. 

 

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18 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I think most people consider a direct personal threat to someone’s personal self and child a worse affront than what Renly did. 

 

Renly was a traitor about to wage war on his own people just because he didn't like his brother and wanted his crown. Treason is worthy of execution. He got what he deserved same as Visaerys. Their own actions led them to their deaths. If only he had joined Stannis they could have liberated the Kingdom together. Truly a shame.

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23 hours ago, Admeral said:

That’s the point I’m making. Renly sealed his fate when he rebelled against Stannis and ignored the line of success. Just as Visaerys sealed his fate with the threat. Yet Stannis is constantly atrackec for being a kinslayer

Renly didn't "seal" anything.  It was inevitable that Renly and Stannis would clash and it was entirely possible Renly would come out on top.  There was even a tiny probability that they would join forces, if Renly accepted Stannis' terms and Catlyn had been successful in mediating the dispute between them.  It was not predictable that Stannis would assassinate him with a magic shadow.  Plus, I think you might be overstating the extent to which Stannis is "attacked".

Viserys is a different story. And, again, Drogo killed him, Not Dany.

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50 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Renly didn't "seal" anything.  It was inevitable that Renly and Stannis would clash and it was entirely possible Renly would come out on top.  There was even a tiny probability that they would join forces, if Renly accepted Stannis' terms and Catlyn had been successful in mediating the dispute between them.  It was not predictable that Stannis would assassinate him with a magic shadow.  Plus, I think you might be overstating the extent to which Stannis is "attacked".

Viserys is a different story. And, again, Drogo killed him, Not Dany.

I agree.  One of the consequences of Robert's Rebellion was that anybody with an army or armies can become king.  Especially if they have the right bloodline.  Robert became king over Jon Arryn or Ned because he has Targ blood in his veins.  So does Stannis and Renly.  They both have the right bloodline.  The laws of rightful succession went out the window when they deposed the former king.  Renly was just another claimant to the throne.  So was Stannis.  And what Stannis did to Renly wasn't for the realm.  He personally benefited from it because the Stormland houses had to support him.  And isn't there some sort of taboo against kinslaying in the books?

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Posted (edited)
On 4/11/2018 at 10:17 PM, goldenmaps said:

I agree.  One of the consequences of Robert's Rebellion was that anybody with an army or armies can become king.  Especially if they have the right bloodline.  Robert became king over Jon Arryn or Ned because he has Targ blood in his veins.  So does Stannis and Renly.  They both have the right bloodline.  The laws of rightful succession went out the window when they deposed the former king.  Renly was just another claimant to the throne.  So was Stannis.  And what Stannis did to Renly wasn't for the realm.  He personally benefited from it because the Stormland houses had to support him.  And isn't there some sort of taboo against kinslaying in the books?

Kinslaying means diddly-squat in the show. Just look at Cersei killing her cousin Lancel and uncle Kevan without backlash. Same goes for Obara shish-kabobing Trystane’s head.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Kinslaying means diddly-squat in the show. Just look at Cersei killing her cousin Lancel and uncle Kevan without backlash. Same goes for Obara shish-kabobing Trystane’s head.

And king of all this is Euron admiting to be one who killed Balon to whole Kingsmoot.

And while we are speaking about things that are considered sacred in the books, it's strange that none said anything to Jon about leaving NW.

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6 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

And king of all this is Euron admiting to be one who killed Balon to whole Kingsmoot.

And while we are speaking about things that are considered sacred in the books, it's strange that none said anything to Jon about leaving NW.

Well, bringing a Night's Watchman back from the dead is unprecedented, is it not? 

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10 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, bringing a Night's Watchman back from the dead is unprecedented, is it not? 

Yes, but none know about that.

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