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Beware the perfumed seneschal


fire&blood

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I think the prophecies spelled out in Dany's POV chapters apply equally for Tyrion, and possibly for more major characters. In other words, there are several perfumed seneschals, each one someone to beware of, depending which character that seneschal is threatening.

The conversation between Moqorro and Tyrion makes it clear that the ship is the huge, central clue for figuring out the perfumed seneschal in Tyrion's arc.

..."Tell me, was Selaesori Qhoran a triarch or a turtle?”

The red priest chuckled. “Neither. Qhoran is … not a ruler, but one who serves and counsels such, and helps conduct his business. You of Westeros might say steward or magister.”

King’s Hand? That amused him. “And selaesori?”

Moqorro touched his nose. “Imbued with a pleasant aroma. Fragrant, would you say? Flowery?”

“So Selaesori Qhoran means Stinky Steward, more or less?”

Fragrant Steward, rather.”

(ADwD, Chapter 33)

So the ship itself is worth examining.

The Selaesori Qhoran was a wallowing tub of five hundred tons, with a deep hold, high castles fore and aft, a single mast between. At her forecastle stood a grotesque figurehead, some worm-eaten wooden eminence with a constipated look and a scroll tucked up under one arm. Tyrion had never seen an uglier ship.

(ADwD, Chapter 33)

By the time the storm abated and the surviving passengers and crew came crawling back on deck, like pale pink worms wriggling to the surface fter a rain, the Selaesori Qhoran was a broken thing, floating low in the water and listing ten degrees to port, her hull sprung in half a hundred places, her hold awash in seawater, her mast a splintered ruin no taller than a dwarf. Even her figurehead had not escaped; one of his arms had broken off, the one with all his scrolls. Nine men had been lost, including a mate, two of the fiery fingers, and Moqorro himself.

(ADwD, Chapter 40)

Tyrion likes the idea that the ship represents the King's Hand. Tywin is the most prominent King's Hand during the period of the books, although Tyrion was acting King's Hand during a critical moment. But Tywin is notably stinky: when he dies, his body gives off an inexplicable and overpowering stench. There are also a number of references to smell associated with Tywin before he dies. My reading of Tywin's aroma is that he was "dead" before Tyrion shot him with the crossbow. The literal death on the toilet in the Tower of the Hand caused a change in whatever state of living death he had been in (I don't know if it was literal, such as the deaths of Mandon Moore or Ser Robert Strong, or figural) and caused him to be really dead, ending the measures that had been in place to disguise the stench of decaying flesh that had already been under way for some time.

The figurehead on the ship also resembles Tywin: he is famously constipated and dies on a toilet. When the ship is wrecked, the figurehead loses an arm - like Lannister son, like Lannister father. There are other details about the Selaesori Qhoran experience that allude to Tywin: sailors rub Tyrion's dwarf head for luck when he comes aboard, and Tyrion remarks that it's a wonder he doesn't go bald (like Tywin but also like Aegon V in the Dunk & Egg stories).

To make a long story short, I think the cracking of the hull of the Selaesori Qhoran represents Tyrion hatching. The stinky Hand of the King has been disarmed (died), the rain (associated with Tywin and the Rains of Castamere) is over, and Tyrion is now reborn - the mast is like a dwarf. Tyrion may have become the perfumed seneschal. (If you believe he is a secret Targ, he may have also become a mummer's dragon on the same voyage when he finally joined Penny's fake mummer jousting act.)

But I love this:

9 hours ago, Lynesse said:

More of a crackpot – how about the Tyrells? The are upjumped stewards, their sigil is a rose, they are associated with pleasant smells. Off the top of my my head, when Sansa meets Olenna for the first time, Olenna “smelled of rosewater.” (ASOS Sansa I)

Moqorro does try to tell Tyrion that the smell is a "flowery" smell. I can't seem to find it, but I recently noticed some parallels between Tywin and Mace Tyrell that went beyond Mace's ambitions to marry into the royal family (although that's also an important parallel). I think Mace could very well be one of the several perfumed seneschals in the books.

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I don’t necessarily think it is Reznak, but just because Dany thinks it might be him doesn’t mean it isn’t. She also thinks of Quentyn as the Sun’s Son, and identifies the coming Pale Mare. So she isn’t all that bad at reading signs 

I agree. I have made a similar argument in the past in favor of Reznak, but the scales have fallen from eyes. 

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11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Marwyn is a good candidate, but his rough description does not jibe with the perfumed part, does it? 

Perfumed part could be added later. Between him departing from Citadel, and him arriving to Meereen and seeing Dany, lots of things could happen. Also perfumed doesn't necessary mean good smell, or smell at all.

In medieval and post medieval times in France and England, people rarely bathed. So royalty were using perfumes, to cover stink of their unwashed bodies. And they were wearing wigs, to conceal their unwashed hair. And in Louvre there was lots of flowers everywhere, to cover stink coming from sewage and toilets.

So perfume part could actually be about a cover, not about a smell. Like perfumed lies, to cover stinky truth. Or something like that ^_^

So perfumed seneschal could be a liar, that will come to Dany, and will be telling her, what she wants to hear, while actually he will have different motives, to lead her astray. Maybe Marwyn will be convincing her, that she is the promised Saviour, while actually she's not supposed to be alone, and there should be three of them - three heads of the dragon. Marwyn will convince her, that she is the Saviour, and she will go to fight alone, against the enemy, and thus will lose the war.

Or maybe the warning was about Jorah. He was sailing on the ship with that name. So maybe Jorah's betrayal is still ahead. His betrayal wasn't for gold, it will be for love of Lynesse Hightower. It seems that she will be back soon. Hightowers already sent someone to negotiate with her. So maybe Jorah will betray Dany for the sake of Lynesse's love.

Or maybe maester Marwyn was also amongst passengers of that ship?

Or it could actually be Reznak.

So I already have 8+ possible candidates: Varys, Illyrio, Jon Snow, Sam Tarly, maester Marwyn, Qyburn, Jorah, Reznak, whoever else could have arrived on that ship.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

I think the prophecies spelled out in Dany's POV chapters apply equally for Tyrion, and possibly for more major characters. In other words, there are several perfumed seneschals, each one someone to beware of, depending which character that seneschal is threatening.

~snipped a little~

I agree with this as it seems to be the case with a few shared plot elements among the main characters.

As far as the stinky steward/perfumed seneschal portion goes, Theon could be another stinky steward, as Melisandre is also a perfumed seneschal.

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4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I agree with this as it seems to be the case with a few shared plot elements among the main characters.

So maybe more of a general warning against flatterers and lickspittles with their own agendas? 

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22 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So maybe more of a general warning against flatterers and lickspittles with their own agendas? 

Possibly, and maybe just as much for the readers amusement to find these twisted Carmen Sandiego's.

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17 hours ago, fire&blood said:

So I'm doing the reread of AFFC & ADWD simultaneously (a la All Leather Must Be Boiled) and I'm at the part where Tyrion and Jorah are on the Selaesori Qhoran headed for Dany.  I don't have the book on me right now but I know it's in ADWD 34, Tyrion VIII chapter that Moqorro has a conversation with Tyrion about the name of the ship and what it means.  Basically, one of the words translates to steward or maester in Westerosi (seneschal) and the other means fragrant (perfumed)- hence the Fragrant Steward which Tyrion jokingly refers to as the "Stinky Steward" because it smells. Seneschal definition is "steward".  Is this the perfumed seneschal that Quaithe tried to warn Dany of? We know Moqorro is a red priest sent by Benerro to offer guidance and help Daenerys, but he ends up being rescued by Victarion and the Iron Fleet. Thoughts?

 

It's Reznak mo Reznak.  The man is a Harpy supporter.  He advised Dany not to kill her hostages.  He even goes too far when he claimed the murders were the mischief done by lowborn poor people when it was clearly the work of the Harpy.  

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14 hours ago, Megorova said:

And even Jon Snow.

Jon also was steward. Was he already Lord Commander, by the time Quaithe gave to Dany that warning, or was he still a steward? And perfumed because of this - "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness" <- this is obviously Jon, blue winter roses are symbol of Lyanna's and Rhaegar's love, and thus their child, Jon Snow, is also a symbol of their love, and thus he is that blue rose from Dany's vision.

Haven't seen this idea before, very intriguing B)

"Perfumed Steward" could fit Jon in several ways;

As you mentioned, he was Mormont's chosen apprentice, as well as probably being a secret Targ - his identity is "perfumed/masked" while the rest of the world seems to have "lost the scent" anyway.

How about Arya? She is "perfumed" in the sense that she masks her identity through the use of various FM tricks of the trade, as well as the fact she is pretty much pretending to forget her Stark heritage. Being the office junior around the HOB&W, she could also be described as a steward.

With the FM's apparent anti-dragon stance, one could imagine Arya's handlers having issue with Dany.

Both Jon and Arya are skinchangers, one could also look at the mysterious ability as a form of "perfuming".

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

I think the prophecies spelled out in Dany's POV chapters apply equally for Tyrion, and possibly for more major characters. In other words, there are several perfumed seneschals, each one someone to beware of, depending which character that seneschal is threatening.

I think that the red comet that we were introduced to at the beginning of the series really supports this view. Everyone had their own interpretation.

Ultimately, I tend to think the prophesies are BS and are more of a device to explore characterization than anything. How do they interpret the prophesy? How much importance is it given? What goes into their interpretation? What choice do they make or not make based on the prophesy? Lots of questions. We may never get a true answer to some if not all of them leaving it to the reader to debate.

And not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet, but Littlefinger has minty breath.

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So, the consensus appears to be that EVERYONE is the "perfumed seneschal." Because anybody can add perfume, and valar dohaeris.That clears things up. It's no wonder Dany doesn't let herself get obsessed with "fulfilling" prophesies, like Cersei does.

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I think the message is about beware of that right-hand servant who’s a little too sweet, helpful and obliging.

 

Edit: As I've said elsewhere, I think things mentioned in proximity to each other are often related or will be related somehow. Interesting that right before Dany gets this message, she bonds with Missendei who might be described as a seneschal and she was pining for Daario, figuratively if not literally perfumed. Whether either or both are the perfumed seneschal or not, Dany needed that warning. 

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3 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It's Reznak mo Reznak.  The man is a Harpy supporter.  He advised Dany not to kill her hostages.  He even goes too far when he claimed the murders were the mischief done by lowborn poor people when it was clearly the work of the Harpy.  

And yet... When Daenerys considers bailing, it's Reznaks who wails and begs her to stay...

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2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I think that the red comet that we were introduced to at the beginning of the series really supports this view. Everyone had their own interpretation.

Ultimately, I tend to think the prophesies are BS and are more of a device to explore characterization than anything. How do they interpret the prophesy? How much importance is it given? What goes into their interpretation? What choice do they make or not make based on the prophesy? Lots of questions. We may never get a true answer to some if not all of them leaving it to the reader to debate.

And not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet, but Littlefinger has minty breath.

But haven't too many come to fruition to call the prophecies in ASOIAF bulls&!t? 

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

So, the consensus appears to be that EVERYONE is the "perfumed seneschal." Because anybody can add perfume, and valar dohaeris.That clears things up. It's no wonder Dany doesn't let herself get obsessed with "fulfilling" prophesies, like Cersei does.

Don't you believe them. Illyrio is the perfumed seneschal. He is the one who has been betraying her for blood all along, and she will know his treason when the dragons dance again. It is known. 

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

I think the message is about beware of that right-hand servant who’s a little too sweet, helpful and obliging.

 

Edit: As I've said elsewhere, I think things mentioned in proximity to each other are often related or will be related somehow. Interesting that right before Dany gets this message, she bonds with Missendei who might be described as a seneschal and she was pining for Daario, figuratively if not literally perfumed. Whether either or both are the perfumed seneschal or not, Dany needed that warning. 

Missendai!?! Say it ain't so! Not that sweet little butterfly...

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21 hours ago, fire&blood said:

 Thoughts?

GRRM has a penchant for setting up several possibilities for each prophecy or vision.  He specifically writes that relying on prophecy os like grabbing a sword with no hilt. All the examples given here are all correct and he will never confirm any of it in writing  

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4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

All the examples given here are all correct and he will never confirm any of it in writing  

You're probably right, but it's still fun to overanalyze his words to death :idea:I must say my favorite part is on the rereads when you notice things as if you'd never read it before.  This is my 4th or 5th reread and I never paid attention to the Stinky Steward before until now, triggering the whole "perfumed seneschal" Quaithe comment. To the George, :bowdown: the man has skills!

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4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

And not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet, but Littlefinger has minty breath.

Arrg, as I was scrolling though the thread it hit me that the only servant not mentioned is the most untrustworthy: Littlefinger. I don't recall any mention of him wearing perfume, but he is minty, and who's to say he won't start scenting himself by the time he runs into Dany.

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