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Who will get to rule Dorne and the Reach in the end?

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9 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

Is there a noble family that has done right by their people in the show? Maybe the Arryns until Littlefinger tookover, and even that was for selfish reasons.

I'm quite partial to the Baratheons.

Stannis Baratheon is the only truly selfless person on the whole show. He saved the world at the expense of everything he cared about.

I do feel Gendry has that potential as well. But I will admit we haven't seen him in a leadership role to know just yet. 

Robert Baratheon was indeed a selfish man, but he did liberate the people from the tyranny of the Targarian bloodline. And he did safeguard the Kingdom for almost 20 years after. Sure, the kingdom was in debt, but people were happy and without war or strife. I find it hard to condemn him on those grounds. His selfishness did not inexorably translate to the suffering of his people.

Shireen thought more of others than herself. She attempted to understand the human condition through litterature and philosophy and possessed great insight and compassion.

 

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23 hours ago, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

I really can't speak to the books, but in the show this is certainly true. Eddard, Rob, and Catelyn failed their people in major ways to benefit their family and Jon has made some selfish and stupid decisions in keeping with that tradition.

Nothing the Starks did within the show was to benefit their family. Eddard went to Kingslanding to discover the truth about Jon Arryn's death, Catelyn only went south after someone tried to kill Bran, Robb only went south after the Lannisters captured and held his father and sisters hostage. To their knowledge everything they did was just and they did not want a war. They were forced to make war because of the machinations of those within the Royal Capital. Ned and Catelyn were content to raise their family in the North in peace. It was the doing of others that forced their hands. 

Saying the Starks made their decisions to benefit House Stark is wrong on so many levels.  

10 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

Is there a noble family that has done right by their people in the show? Maybe the Arryns until Littlefinger tookover, and even that was for selfish reasons.

If you strictly mean great houses then House Stark, House Martell, and House Tully. House Arryn does not count because it was an Lyssa Tully-Arryn who started everything under Littlefinger's orders. 

Houses Baratheon, Greyjoy, Lannister, and Tyrell all make their moves to benefit themselves. 

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6 hours ago, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

I'm quite partial to the Baratheons.

Stannis Baratheon is the only truly selfless person on the whole show. He saved the world at the expense of everything he cared about.

I do feel Gendry has that potential as well. But I will admit we haven't seen him in a leadership role to know just yet. 

Robert Baratheon was indeed a selfish man, but he did liberate the people from the tyranny of the Targarian bloodline. And he did safeguard the Kingdom for almost 20 years after. Sure, the kingdom was in debt, but people were happy and without war or strife. I find it hard to condemn him on those grounds. His selfishness did not inexorably translate to the suffering of his people.

Shireen thought more of others than herself. She attempted to understand the human condition through litterature and philosophy and possessed great insight and compassion.

 

Stannis was only selfless in his decision to ride north rather than south because of something Melisandre said and certainly his belief that it would all work out in the end. He also rode North in hopes that Northmen would rally behind him, something that might have been foolhardy. Of course his murder of his daughter could be seen as thinking of his people rather than himself and family, but let's not pretend that was a good thing. His using of dark magic to kill Renly was certainly selfish. General burning of those that don't follow his religion for sacrifice certainly isn't selfless. Claiming his right to the throne in general is a selfish act. 

As other Baratheon's go, sure Shireen in her limited time was selfless. Renly was very selfish in stealing his brother's bannermen. Robert was selfish in his claiming of the throne and then not actually ruling. He was also selfish in his starting of the war. All accounts point to Rhaegar being a good heir. And while your opinion that Targaryens couldn't be trusted to rule because of their tainted bloodline is reasonable, it wasn't his goal. He did it to win back his future wife despite her not wanting him. Furthermore, Targaryens, while having tainted bloodlines due to incest, were about to be ruled by a good king and one that married outside of the Targaryen bloodline, making the genetics better. 

I think there is more evidence of Eddard being selfless. He saved baby Jon despite the hit against his honor and the possible wrath that he could have gotten from Robert. He rode south to root out the Capital conspiracy despite the fact that he wanted to stay home. He then tried to make peace by naming Joffery the king at the end to save the realm from war as well as his family.

Jon has many selfless acts as well. Joining the wildlings by killing Qorin Half-hand understanding that it could have ended in his death. Confronting Mance at the battle at the wall understanding that it could have ended in his death. Letting the wildlings through the wall understanding that it could have ended in his death, which it did. Going to find the wight understanding it could have ended in his death. Letting Dany leave on the back of Drogon knowing it was likely to end in his death. His one major selfish act was trying to save Rickon instead of sticking to the battle plan.

Catelyn is basically selfish throughout. Robb was selfish in taking his wife.

Every family has their selfish moments. Some also have selfless moments. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

If you strictly mean great houses then House Stark, House Martell, and House Tully. House Arryn does not count because it was an Lyssa Tully-Arryn who started everything under Littlefinger's orders. 

Houses Baratheon, Greyjoy, Lannister, and Tyrell all make their moves to benefit themselves. 

Doran Martell might have been selfless but there isn't much evidence to go off of there. Once the ladies tookover, it was all selfish from there on out.

House Tully is an enigma of sorts. While you can say they joined the war because Hoster's grandson was Robb and he led the warring party, making it selfish and hurting his people, the Lannisters kind of forced their hands with the Mountain killing people in the Riverlands. Lysa and Catelyn were both Tully's and they showed a lot of selfishness though.

All of the families are selfish. That is a major theme of the show and books. The lords and ladies play their Game of Thrones and the smallfolk are the ones left to suffer.

Edited by Valyrian Lance

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Valyrian Lance said:

Stannis was only selfless in his decision to ride north rather than south because of something Melisandre said and certainly his belief that it would all work out in the end. He also rode North in hopes that Northmen would rally behind him, something that might have been foolhardy. Of course his murder of his daughter could be seen as thinking of his people rather than himself and family, but let's not pretend that was a good thing. His using of dark magic to kill Renly was certainly selfish. General burning of those that don't follow his religion for sacrifice certainly isn't selfless. Claiming his right to the throne in general is a selfish act. 

...

I think there is more evidence of Eddard being selfless. He saved baby Jon despite the hit against his honor and the possible wrath that he could have gotten from Robert. He rode south to root out the Capital conspiracy despite the fact that he wanted to stay home. He then tried to make peace by naming Joffery the king at the end to save the realm from war as well as his family.

People just aren't very observant. It's cause and effect. I always saw Stannis as the foil for Ned Stark. One of my favorite scenes that describes this perfectly is in the season 1 episode Bealor. The conversation between Aemon Targarian and Jon Snow. Maester Aemon asks Jon if he knows why the Night's Watch can have no wives and father no children. "So they will not love. LOVE IS THE DEATH OF DUTY." He says that given the choice most men would prioritize their family over their duty to the realm. He then asks what Jon thinks his father would do. Jon replies that his father would always do what is right. No matter what. Aemon says that his father is "one man in ten thousand". "Most of us are not so strong. What is honor campared to a woman's love? What is duty compared to the feel of a newborn son in your arms? Or a brother's smile?" "We're all human. And we all do our duty when there's no cost to it. Honor comes easy then. Yet, sooner or later, in every man's life there comes a day when it is not easy. A day when he must choose!"

As we all know Ned Stark was considered an honorable man. He supported Stannis as the heir to the Iron Throne because he WAS the heir. But when he had to choose between his duty and his family he chose his family. He falsely confessed to treason and proclaimed Joffry the true King plunging the seven kingdoms into a civil war that still hasn't ended. All to save his two daughters. All the lives lost in this conflict to save two people. In the end his love was the death of his duty. 

Stannis had a similar choice to make. To spare his daughter at the expense of the kingdom or to sacrifice her to ensure it's future and save countless lives in the process. He chose Duty. Stannis Baratheon was that one man in ten thousand Measter Aemon referenced. He loved Shireen. She was possibly the only person he ever loved and he still chose his duty. Why? Because he was King. And a King has a greater responsibility to his people than to his family. A King must be selfless to be effective. And Stannis is the only truly selfless character in the whole series. 

Edited by Lord Stannis-The True King

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2 hours ago, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

<snip>

Stannis had a similar choice to make. To spare his daughter at the expense of the kingdom or to sacrifice her to ensure it's future and save countless lives in the process. He chose Duty. Stannis Baratheon was that one man in ten thousand Measter Aemon referenced. He loved Shireen. She was possibly the only person he ever loved and he still chose his duty. Why? Because he was King. And a King has a greater responsibility to his people than to his family. A King must be selfless to be effective. And Stannis is the only truly selfless character in the whole series. 

Interesting motive given to a foolish decision. Stannis did not allow his daughter to be killed out of a since of duty to the kingdom. He was persuaded by the Red Witch that it would bring him a chance for victory - a complete act of selfishness. In addition he simply did not get that the "visions" Melisandre saw in the flames were just her interpretations of mysteries neither she nor he could understand. Stannis made his decision based on her prompting, and that of his crazy wife, in order to gain a tactical advantage in battle - not even a final battle for the seven kingdoms, but a battle to try to take out Ramsay, a far cry from uniting Westeros. Killing Shireen caused more than half of his men and all the sellswords to desert dooming his cause before the battle could take place. 

In addition had Stannis lived, his closest supporter, most loyal of followers - Davos Seaworth would probably have abandoned him completely - the one man who cared more about Stannis' child than her Father did!

In my opinion, which of course is bound to be challenged, Davos was the most selfless person in the entire hbo adaptation. For example, he let his fingers be chopped off by a man he had literally saved from starvation, the siege of Storm's End would have succeeded if not for Davos' selfless act.

 

To the topic at hand - who will rule in Dorne and the Reach - I agree the Reach will probably go to Sam, I am sure something can be done to release him from his vows. As for Dorne, I expect the show to reveal a Dornish heir previously unknown.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

He falsely confessed to treason and proclaimed Joffry the true King plunging the seven kingdoms into a civil war that still hasn't ended. All to save his two daughters. All the lives lost in this conflict to save two people. In the end his love was the death of his duty. 

I don't know if he saw it as only saving his daughters. And let's be honest, the conflict was going to happen anyway. It was already happening. The only thing he did there was to try and save his daughters in sacrifice of his honor. Had it succeeded and he was allowed to take the black, the north may not have ever entered the fight (best for his people) and the fight would have been over the legitimacy of Joffery against Stannis and the selfish Renly, which was always going to happen.

Edited by Valyrian Lance

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In all honesty Stannis and the Northern plotline got decimated royally in the last two/three seasons. Show!Stannis in particular was turned into Satannis by the actions he committed on the show. No one involved in the North looked good. NO. ONE. The Northern Lords were absent, Sansa looked to be conniving, Arya..., Bran..., Jon was just going through the motions, and moments that should have made us love the North and the Starks and the Manderlys even more were absent or misused. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

In all honesty Stannis and the Northern plotline got decimated royally in the last two/three seasons. Show!Stannis in particular was turned into Satannis by the actions he committed on the show. No one involved in the North looked good. NO. ONE. The Northern Lords were absent, Sansa looked to be conniving, Arya..., Bran..., Jon was just going through the motions, and moments that should have made us love the North and the Starks and the Manderlys even more were absent or misused. 

So only the Faceless Men looked good? :) 

I’ve been complaining about this for a while, from Stannis’ plot line and Sansa’s plot line in particular. In my opinion, the showrunners don’t like either character, but I’ll go into detail with how they’ve hamstrung Sansa:

Handing her over to Ramsay. She’s back to being a helpless victim, back to square one per se, and she doesn’t try to manipulate events there.

Jon and Sansa’s interactions with the Northern Lords is like Don Quixote and a stubborn horse. And I thought the North Remembers. I guess I should have seen this coming, what with none of the lords protesting’s Sansa’s treatment at Ramsay’s hands in Season 5.

Littlefinger’s demise is Bran’s victory, not Sansa’s. From the deleted scene, Sansa just realizes she has a CCTV on her hands and decides to use it. She and Arya were just butting heads and Arya threatening to take Sansa’s face.

If she wants to execute Littlefinger, she should do it personally, not rely on Arya. She passes the sentence, she swings the sword, end of story. Besides, it’s more meaningful if she does it.

 

 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

I don't know if he saw it as only saving his daughters. And let's be honest, the conflict was going to happen anyway. It was already happening. The only thing he did there was to try and save his daughters in sacrifice of his honor. Had it succeeded and he was allowed to take the black, the north may not have ever entered the fight (best for his people) and the fight would have been over the legitimacy of Joffery against Stannis and the selfish Renly, which was always going to happen.

So if Ned had taken the black, Robb would have packed up and gone home with Jaime in tow? Or did the Whispering Wood happen after Ned’s execution. On the other hand, Robb would still have trouble from Rickard Karstark getting angry about his dead sons.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So if Ned had taken the black, Robb would have packed up and gone home with Jaime in tow? Or did the Whispering Wood happen after Ned’s execution. On the other hand, Robb would still have trouble from Rickard Karstark getting angry about his dead sons.

Whispering Wood happened before the execution. Yes, I'd think they would sue for peace in this case, try to trade Jamie for Sansa and Arya (hard to tell what would happen if they didn't get Arya). Ned would probably have a say in what happened at least as the North goes, as long as he survives long enough from his leg.

Edited by Valyrian Lance

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On 5/17/2018 at 1:36 AM, Lord Stannis-The True King said:

I'm quite partial to the Baratheons.

Stannis Baratheon is the only truly selfless person on the whole show. He saved the world at the expense of everything he cared about.

I do feel Gendry has that potential as well. But I will admit we haven't seen him in a leadership role to know just yet. 

Robert Baratheon was indeed a selfish man, but he did liberate the people from the tyranny of the Targarian bloodline. And he did safeguard the Kingdom for almost 20 years after. Sure, the kingdom was in debt, but people were happy and without war or strife. I find it hard to condemn him on those grounds. His selfishness did not inexorably translate to the suffering of his people.

Shireen thought more of others than herself. She attempted to understand the human condition through litterature and philosophy and possessed great insight and compassion.

 

I stopped reading the thread after this post, and I'm sure you got a lot of disagreeing responses.  But I am a Baratheon man through and through, and I support these statements.

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