Lady Stoneheart-looking ahead.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

On 30/04/2018 at 9:02 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sandor is now an acolyte on the Quiet Isle. Lem is now the Hound. 

Thoros acting as a check on Lady Stoneheart's thirst for vengeance would be a good role for him given where his character was when he served Beric. 

I'd be disappointed if Sandor remained an acolyte. 

The problem I have with Thoros remaining is that he never really had a huge amount invested in the BWB. He loved RB so it makes sense he'd follow Ned's orders to enforce the king's justice. Plus he has first hand experience of the Mountain's butchery from the sack of KL. He had his own motives, it wasn't just orders.

Thoros' powers have grown and he doesn't even understand why. RB is dead, and for all he knows the Mountain is too. I can't think of why he would stick around, he clearly doesn't have the stomach for vengeful butchery. It seems like his group have become the very thing he set out to defeat. Furthermore, I don't see any evidence that Thoros has any sway over LS and it looks like the BWB's ranks have had an influx of Northmen from the RW who'll happily facilitate her revenge. It just doesn't look good for him. 

I'm half expecting him to turn his cloak quite soon in tWoW. I have no idea whether he'd try anything on LS. I think he'll want to help Brienne somehow. He does seem to confide in her. 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

On 30/04/2018 at 9:33 PM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

 

 

These are my thoughts, as well as hopes I suppose LOL, when it comes to these three.  I just cannot imagine Brienne walking Jaime to his possible death without a word.  The actual OG vows that Cat CHOSE for Brienne seem to matter, they should, as well as the tapestry blackmail that Cat used with Hunt and Pod. 

Quote

"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.” 

Quote by Jaime to Cat. I think there's a subtle irony in Brienne breaking her vow to cat for the very reason Jaime listed. It's a small hope, but I would like to see the pair scream "F the world!" and just do their own thing. It would mean Jaime giving up on his White Book ambitions. But then again, perhaps Lem is a version of the Hound a left handed Jaime could realistically defeat? 

I think there's lots of reasons to remain hopeful that Jaime isn't going to hang early in tWoW. Jaime is too awesome to die. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

19 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I'd be disappointed if Sandor remained an acolyte. 

The problem I have with Thoros remaining is that he never really had a huge amount invested in the BWB. He loved RB so it makes sense he'd follow Ned's orders to enforce the king's justice. Plus he has first hand experience of the Mountain's butchery from the sack of KL. He had his own motives, it wasn't just orders.

Thoros' powers have grown and he doesn't even understand why. RB is dead, and for all he knows the Mountain is too. I can't think of why he would stick around, he clearly doesn't have the stomach for vengeful butchery. It seems like his group have become the very thing he set out to defeat. Furthermore, I don't see any evidence that Thoros has any sway over LS and it looks like the BWB's ranks have had an influx of Northmen from the RW who'll happily facilitate her revenge. It just doesn't look good for him. 

I'm half expecting him to turn his cloak quite soon in tWoW. I have no idea whether he'd try anything on LS. I think he'll want to help Brienne somehow. He does seem to confide in her. 

I think I would be happy for the figment of the George's imagination known as Sandor Clegane if he simply remained at peace on the Quiet Isle. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

4 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Quote by Jaime to Cat. I think there's a subtle irony in Brienne breaking her vow to cat for the very reason Jaime listed. It's a small hope, but I would like to see the pair scream "F the world!" and just do their own thing. It would mean Jaime giving up on his White Book ambitions. But then again, perhaps Lem is a version of the Hound a left handed Jaime could realistically defeat? 

I think there's lots of reasons to remain hopeful that Jaime isn't going to hang early in tWoW. Jaime is too awesome to die. 

Oh yes, I agree, Brienne's predicament is that little monologue come to life.  That is one of my favorite scenes in the books, Jaime and Cat, period.  It was a whopping hint that there was a lot more to Jaime than we might have thought, and looking at it now, I couldn't imagine these books without the Jaime POV that came in book 3.

[Arthur Peres]

Personaly I like the idea of LSH killing Jaime. A lot of that is because that I really don't like Jaime, but also because it close an great arc for him, brienne and cat.

Brienne standing there seeing him being hanged in silence and understanding what Jaime told her.

Cat finally gets her revenge against Jaime for throwing Bran from the tower, but now this revenge is pointless now and gives her nothing she still will never see her children again. 

Jaime arc would be complete, sour for sure but complete.

He was a idealist young boy that became a cynical knight that lived for his sister/lover, but now he saw the monster that this sister/lover was he tried to make amends to his mistakes by releasing his brother just to cause his father's death and now he has no path to follow. He dies trying to fulfil his last oath after being betrayed by the first person he opened up and probably the last one he trusted.

[Lord Lannister]

19 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Quote by Jaime to Cat. I think there's a subtle irony in Brienne breaking her vow to cat for the very reason Jaime listed. It's a small hope, but I would like to see the pair scream "F the world!" and just do their own thing. It would mean Jaime giving up on his White Book ambitions. But then again, perhaps Lem is a version of the Hound a left handed Jaime could realistically defeat? 

I think there's lots of reasons to remain hopeful that Jaime isn't going to hang early in tWoW. Jaime is too awesome to die. 

Personally, I think the whole Lady Stoneheart plot is just hollow and empty. Maybe some people will say that's the point, but other than a WTF moment, her involvement literally seems to ruin everything it's touched so far. Catelyn, a polarizing and very interesting character no matter what you think of her and her actions, is now reduced to a mindless "Freeeeeeeys" zombie. You have Beric giving up his life to animate a zombie avenger for... reasons. He was interesting and tragic enough in of itself and could've touched on the pointlessness of war, revenge in a much more human way, but he just sacrificed himself for a dead corpse for.. reasons. The Brotherhood, one of the most compelling and interesting organizations in the story is now reduced to a petty band of brigands whose only redeeming feature is they are (mostly) going after other assholes. Podrick gets to hang, nearly hang or whatever just because he's so evil to be in cahoots with those Lannisters. You have Brienne lying to Jaime for the mindless zombie. And Jaime's going into the mouth of the interest eating monster so it doesn't look like he'll escape untainted, if at all. Those I guess there's the sliver of hope, Brienne was going to Jaime for help rather than to sell him out to Stoneheart. Personally I think her oath was to Catelyn and not whatever Stoneheart is.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

On 02/05/2018 at 7:40 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think I would be happy for the figment of the George's imagination known as Sandor Clegane if he simply remained at peace on the Quiet Isle. 

Which is understandable. The man has been through a nightmare. It's just the whole 'fear of fire' and the possible implication that he'll need to learn to love fire if he wants to survive the LN. It's thin, but I'd love to see Sandor overcome this fear in order to survive. And when I think of winter coming, I imagine the Others won't be far behind. Any man or woman who can swing a sword or loose and arrow will be useful. How many people can fight like he does/could? I also love his dialogue and interactions with the Stark Girls. He really left his print on them so maybe that's enough. 

 

On 02/05/2018 at 11:36 PM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Oh yes, I agree, Brienne's predicament is that little monologue come to life.  That is one of my favorite scenes in the books, Jaime and Cat, period.  It was a whopping hint that there was a lot more to Jaime than we might have thought, and looking at it now, I couldn't imagine these books without the Jaime POV that came in book 3.

Me too, I could watch those two go at it all day long. I think the memory of Cat will haunt both Lannister boys throughout the series. 

 

20 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Personally, I think the whole Lady Stoneheart plot is just hollow and empty. Maybe some people will say that's the point, but other than a WTF moment, her involvement literally seems to ruin everything it's touched so far. Catelyn, a polarizing and very interesting character no matter what you think of her and her actions, is now reduced to a mindless "Freeeeeeeys" zombie. You have Beric giving up his life to animate a zombie avenger for... reasons. He was interesting and tragic enough in of itself and could've touched on the pointlessness of war, revenge in a much more human way, but he just sacrificed himself for a dead corpse for.. reasons. The Brotherhood, one of the most compelling and interesting organizations in the story is now reduced to a petty band of brigands whose only redeeming feature is they are (mostly) going after other assholes. Podrick gets to hang, nearly hang or whatever just because he's so evil to be in cahoots with those Lannisters. You have Brienne lying to Jaime for the mindless zombie. And Jaime's going into the mouth of the interest eating monster so it doesn't look like he'll escape untainted, if at all. Those I guess there's the sliver of hope, Brienne was going to Jaime for help rather than to sell him out to Stoneheart. Personally I think her oath was to Catelyn and not whatever Stoneheart is.

You could be right. Although it doesn't fit George's MO to write one-dimensional characters, LS may well be our story's Nissa Nissa? It's not too difficult to imagine Brienne plunging Ned's VS into a fiery heart LS and forging Lightbringer by mistake. It would reunite Cat & Ned and hopefully transfer some of that fire magic to the blade itself. 

I don't blame Beric for resurrecting Cat. He had lost all motivation with the deaths of RB and The Mountain and it was clear that Catelyn was the one with unresolved issues. In fairness to Beric, he couldn't of known Cat would return the way she did. Nobody could. 

And I completely agree with your last statement. At no point did Brienne swear to watch children hang. This behavior is the polar opposite to Brienne. We know that certain characters are happy to kill kids. Sandor blindly followed his orders. Bronn suggests to Tyrion that it would be a question of how much gold. Cersei would kill anyone in her path and Stannis was absolutely prepared to do it. By contrast, Brienne is the closest thing our story has to a 'good guy', for lack of a better term. 

 

On 02/05/2018 at 11:48 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Personaly I like the idea of LSH killing Jaime. A lot of that is because that I really don't like Jaime, but also because it close an great arc for him, brienne and cat.

Brienne standing there seeing him being hanged in silence and understanding what Jaime told her.

Cat finally gets her revenge against Jaime for throwing Bran from the tower, but now this revenge is pointless now and gives her nothing she still will never see her children again. 

Jaime arc would be complete, sour for sure but complete.

The problem is that Brienne has already witnessed innocents hang toward the end of aFfC and she couldn't bare it. And why couldn't LS see her children again? Only Robb has died. Sansa's just up the King's road. Bran and Rickon are far in the North but alive. Arya isn't finished in Westeros. 

Also,
 

Quote

'the thought of failing him made her weep'

said by the narrator in regards to Jaime in Brienne's final chapter in aFfC. 

 When Brienne wakes from her fever dream after getting her ass kicked by biter, her very first thought was of Jaime. She shouts his name at least twice before mentioning the maid of 3 and 10. I think Lem makes a comment like, 'if I had a silver stag for every time you said his name I'd be as rich as the Lannisters'. I don't even remember Brienne thinking of Catelyn until the big show down. But I do recall her thinking of Renly when she see's Gendry. 

Brienne will need to forsake one for the other and I think she'll pick the guy she's attracted to and is learning to trust. She chose the sword, Oathkeeper, and she will keep her oath. To Jaime.


Man, Roose really threw Jamie under the bus with his parting words. There's no way of proving him innocent, plus it's the behavior people expect of Jaime. The BWB is basically just a Stark/Tully resistance.