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redriver

Lady Stoneheart-looking ahead.

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Yes I would think LSH will make an important resurrection, otherwise the set up will be a let down. Who? Brienne, Jaime, Jon, Arya, Sansa? She could demand her kids be rescued if she has found some news about them by now. Sandor has some info. Or she could demand the deaths of some top villains like Roose, Walter or LF. She has been spared for some serious narrative reason besides horror, although her being a Hel character was a great idea. She is also there to show how grotesque pure vengeance is, even though the Frey’s are not sympathetic.

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11 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

even though the Frey’s are not sympathetic.

You forget Olyvar, Perwyn and Alessander.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/16/2018 at 9:23 PM, Howlin' Howland said:

The last time Cat had Jaime as a prisoner she was prepared to exchange him for her family members even after learning that he had thrown Bran out the window.  As far as LSH knows she only has two remaining living family members and one of them, Edmure, is a prisoner at Casterly Rock.  If Cat's still more human than vengeance zombie I think there's a very good chance she'd be interested in trading Jaime for her brother and his pregnant wife.

I'd quite forgot about that. So, Jaime, painfully honest and truthful, flat out told Catelyn he tried to kill her favourite son. She knew this when she set him free, in hopes of getting her daugthers back.

Should we blame Catelyn or Jaime? Jaime has, after all, kept his promises and oaths to her. It's not his fault neither of the Stark girls were there when he finally got back to KL.

Afterwards, he does his best to protect Sansa. ("Hey, wench, here's a Valyrian steel Stark sword, and I hope I've got your measurements right for this amazing armour because I looked at your naked body so haaar....uhm... nevermind . And there's a horse as ugly as you, so just get out!") (It's actually a very pretty horse.)

Edited by talvikorppi
nevermind, bifocals amd stupidity

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I think we'll see a very conflicted Brienne in tWoW. She's now found herself in one of those unwinnable situations where she'll make a pivotal decision. I think she'll elope with Jaime. She's clearly enamored and Jaime has treated her better than most. And Jaime doesn't want KL or CR.

I think it'll be tough for her to weigh up Jaime's life/freedom against that of Ser Hyle and Pod, but if Brienne is to ever make a selfish decision in her life I think it'll be this one. Again, Brienne has demonstrated deep feelings toward Jaime. Admiration, even. Not so for Hyle whom she's flat out rejected in terms of suitor at least. And as for Pod, he's not long for their world. 

I just don't imagine  Brienne actually luring Jaime towards death like that. He didn't betray her, or even try to hurt her, like so many others have done. Brienne has trust issues. Her time with Dick Crabb told the reader this. So I believe that Brienne has identified Jaime as a person she could trust. It's that or serve LSH indefinitely. What does Brienne value most? And Jaime, for that matter.

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5 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I think we'll see a very conflicted Brienne in tWoW. She's now found herself in one of those unwinnable situations where she'll make a pivotal decision. I think she'll elope with Jaime. She's clearly enamored and Jaime has treated her better than most. And Jaime doesn't want KL or CR.

I think it'll be tough for her to weigh up Jaime's life/freedom against that of Ser Hyle and Pod, but if Brienne is to ever make a selfish decision in her life I think it'll be this one. Again, Brienne has demonstrated deep feelings toward Jaime. Admiration, even. Not so for Hyle whom she's flat out rejected in terms of suitor at least. And as for Pod, he's not long for their world. 

I just don't imagine  Brienne actually luring Jaime towards death like that. He didn't betray her, or even try to hurt her, like so many others have done. Brienne has trust issues. Her time with Dick Crabb told the reader this. So I believe that Brienne has identified Jaime as a person she could trust. It's that or serve LSH indefinitely. What does Brienne value most? And Jaime, for that matter.

She chose...

Quote

Lady Catelyn's fingers dug deep into her throat, and the words came rattling out, choked and broken, a stream as cold as ice. The northman said, "She says that you must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose, she says. Choose, she says. Choose."

Brienne remembered her dream, waiting in her father's hall for the boy she was to marry. In the dream she had bitten off her tongue. My mouth was full of blood. She took a ragged breath and said, "I will not make that choice."

There was a long silence. Then Lady Stoneheart spoke again. This time Brienne understood her words. There were only two. "Hang them," she croaked.

"As you command, m'lady," said the big man.

They bound Brienne's wrists with rope again and led her from the cavern, up a twisting stony path to the surface. It was morning outside, she was surprised to see. Shafts of pale dawn light were slanting through the trees. So many trees to choose from, she thought. They will not need to take us far.

Nor did they. Beneath a crooked willow, the outlaws slipped a noose about her neck, jerked it tight, and tossed the other end of the rope over a limb. Hyle Hunt and Podrick Payne were given elms. Ser Hyle was shouting that he would kill Jaime Lannister, but the Hound cuffed him across the face and shut him up. He had donned the helm again. "If you got crimes to confess to your gods, this would be the time to say them."

"Podrick has never harmed you. My father will ransom him. Tarth is called the sapphire isle. Send Podrick with my bones to Evenfall, and you'll have sapphires, silver, whatever you want."

"I want my wife and daughter back," said the Hound. "Can your father give me that? If not, he can get buggered. The boy will rot beside you. Wolves will gnaw your bones."

"Do you mean to hang her, Lem?" asked the one-eyed man. "Or do you figure to talk the bitch to death?"

The Hound snatched the end of the rope from the man holding it. "Let's see if she can dance," he said, and gave a yank.

Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.

She screamed a word.

Brienne VIII, Feast 42

She chose sword to save Podrick. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/6425/

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Stoneheart has to stick around long enough for Sansa and Arya to get back to King's Landing and for Arya to find a reason to hear word about and decide to head out to join the BWB. Probably because Sansa orders her to, with the intention of saving Jaime or ending the BWB. Probably she will keep both Brienne and Jaime captive long enough for them to miss the dance between Aegon and Dany.

As Aerys was(is) to Jaime, Stoneheart is to Brienne. To Jaime she is the consequences of the smallfolk losing faith in the king's justice, an important less for a future hand of the king. And to Arya she is where her own path of vengeance leads, which Arya will recognise and reject, and that rejection will be the death of Stoneheart.

The BWB can only end in either slaughter or surrender. Jaime's presence is a blessing, as he will be the reason that it will be a surrender rather than slaughter.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/15/2018 at 4:30 PM, The Chains of Heaven said:

 

Catelyn and Arya are the instruments of Stark vengeance.  They will do a great deal of harm to Westeros.  Their feelings are valid but their choice to get justice for losing the war is hard to sympathize with.  War is hell and they came out on the losing end.  It's best for everyone if they suck it up and let go.  I don't think they will but we can hope they will not be around too long to create much mayhem.

Arya and unCat are vengeance-driven, but they operate on a small scale, unlike the raiding Tywin ordered Gregor Clegane Amory Lorch to do, or what Euron is engaged in. I hardly see how their actions can do a "great deal of harm". 

Lady Stoneheart is basically killing Freys, and there is an oversupply of those, even if they weren't a tribe of treacherous snakes. I don't see any great harm to Westeros coming from thinning that herd. All it accomplishes is to move Freys up in the chain of succession. There are probably a bunch of them who actually welcome having the ones ahead of them eliminated. We see this mentality in the conversation of Big Walder and Little Walder.

I'd like to see one name on Arya's to-kill list who Westeros wouldn't be better off without. Just one name, please. She's personally killed, what, a dozen people? Compare that the the number Lord Walder had killed at the Red Wedding, just for starters. Several thousand, just because he felt he'd been slighted. Arya's list is of those who've killed her family and friends.

Suck it up and let it go? Tell Tywin (oops, too late). Tell Lord Walder. Tell Danaerys. Tell Cersei. 

Edited by Light a wight tonight
clarity

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Stoneheart is hard to guess, i'm not a big fan of her, so i wouldn't mind if she just ends with a sword in her back. but i guess that will not happen so quickly.

As for Jaime and Brienne, I highly doubt jaime's story will end there, an brienne is also unlikely to be killed there imo.

i hope Cat's vow to brienne "pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new." will become relevant in this scene

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

She chose...

She's yet to go through with it though. Let her look at Jaime, face to face. I'm willing to bet she hasn't truly committed herself to this course of action. It was merely a means to prevent Pod and Hyle's immediate deaths. As well as her own.

I'm thinking she'll wind up in a not too dissimilar position to Jaime's when he swore to protect Aerys V. 

Edited by TheThreeEyedCow

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3 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

She's yet to go through with it though. Let her look at Jaime, face to face. I'm willing to bet she hasn't truly committed herself to this course of action. It was merely a means to prevent Pod and Hyle's immediate deaths. As well as her own.

I'm thinking she'll wind up in a not too dissimilar position to Jaime's when he swore to protect Aerys V. 

I believe Jaime is Cersei's valonqar, so I expect him to survive the coming encounter. My best guess is that Jaime will win a trial by battle against the Hound, and Thoros and Brienne will compel Lady Stoneheart to accept the outcome. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/16/2018 at 1:51 AM, redriver said:

Just let it go.That's fucking brilliant.

So her son was stabbed to death (under guest rights) then beheaded and his direwolf's head was sown onto his body,as witnessed by her daughter who's already seen her father beheaded, then she has been dragged through the worst atrocities the war has to offer.This is shortly after she learns that her your two youngest sons have been killed by Theon Greyjoy.

Suck it up?I don't think so.

I've actually thought one of the best ways for both LSH and Arya to......let it go is the possibility that Arya may have to be the one to put LSH, and therefore her mother, at rest.  LSH would know that at least one of Cat's children live (if not the rest of them), and she would willingly go (maybe)  Arya would learn the true idea of death being  The Gift because LSH's existence would be a horror for someone who loved Cat, I would think.  It may take facing such, giving her mother the true gift of a peaceful rest, for Arya to turn her own corner as well. 

ETA:  Arya didn't witness the mutilation of Robb and Greywind, that was the show.  Right?  LOL  I've reread plenty, but I'm only 99% sure of that. 

 

Edited by Lady Fevre Dream

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35 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I believe Jaime is Cersei's valonqar, so I expect him to survive the coming encounter. My best guess is that Jaime will win a trial by battle against the Hound, and Thoros and Brienne will compel Lady Stoneheart to accept the outcome. 

I always imagined Jaime fighting "the Hound" but not Sandor, if you know what I mean? 

The Thoros situation throws me, a bit. He's undoubtedly high up in their hierarchy but isn't exactly fully on-side with LS' sweeping vengeance. The man's a healer, there must be somewhere better in the story for him to fit.  

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On 4/14/2018 at 5:59 AM, redriver said:

GRRM has revealed that he regrets the show ditched this character and that he is writing her extensively in the Winds of Winter.

So how do you think this will play out?

What happens to Jaime and Brienne if they ever get there?

Can she move beyond hanging just Freys?

Is this good news or bad?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I did read the linked article, previously and now, further down the thread, but I'm having trouble confirming one piece of information.  I'm not sure I see GRRM saying that the next novel will contain extensive views or visits with LSH?  Yes, I expect to see her, I concur with lots in the OP here, but I don't see where it's said that LSH will be extensively featured next book?  Not trying to nitpick, just wondering if that idea of extensive use of the character came from a different source. Thanks 

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I definitely think we're gonna get a Red Wedding 2.0 from LSH.  We have the pieces in place- the upcoming Lannister-Frey wedding at Riverrun and Tom O' Sevens being a spy there (as well as the hilarious LOTR shoutout from Emmon Frey with "no man shall ever take this castle from me.")  That to me would be a good payoff for the stuff going on with LSH.

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1 hour ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I've actually thought one of the best ways for both LSH and Arya to......let it go is the possibility that Arya may have to be the one to put LSH, and therefore her mother, at rest.  LSH would know that at least one of Cat's children live (if not the rest of them), and she would willingly go (maybe)  Arya would learn the true idea of death being  The Gift because LSH's existence would be a horror for someone who loved Cat, I would think.  It may take facing such, giving her mother the true gift of a peaceful rest, for Arya to turn her own corner as well. 

ETA:  Arya didn't witness the mutilation of Robb and Greywind, that was the show.  Right?  LOL  I've reread plenty, but I'm only 99% sure of that. 

 

Arya didn't witness the mutilation of Robb and Grey Wind. 

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1 hour ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I always imagined Jaime fighting "the Hound" but not Sandor, if you know what I mean? 

The Thoros situation throws me, a bit. He's undoubtedly high up in their hierarchy but isn't exactly fully on-side with LS' sweeping vengeance. The man's a healer, there must be somewhere better in the story for him to fit.  

Sandor is now an acolyte on the Quiet Isle. Lem is now the Hound. 

Thoros acting as a check on Lady Stoneheart's thirst for vengeance would be a good role for him given where his character was when he served Beric. 

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18 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Arya didn't witness the mutilation of Robb and Grey Wind. 

LOL  That was my thought as well.  I was 99% sure to trust my memory.......but it has been awhile since I've reread that section, I suppose. 

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On 4/16/2018 at 9:40 PM, HoodedCrow said:

Yes I would think LSH will make an important resurrection, otherwise the set up will be a let down. Who? Brienne, Jaime, Jon, Arya, Sansa? She could demand her kids be rescued if she has found some news about them by now. Sandor has some info. Or she could demand the deaths of some top villains like Roose, Walter or LF. She has been spared for some serious narrative reason besides horror, although her being a Hel character was a great idea. She is also there to show how grotesque pure vengeance is, even though the Frey’s are not sympathetic.

This idea of LSH's ending being for a serious narrative reason is why one of my ideas for it is Arya having to do the deed, so she may actually see, truly, the idea of death being The Gift.  It would also tie into the idea that yes, everyone must die as the HoB&W taught her. 

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22 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

She chose...

Brienne VIII, Feast 42

She chose sword to save Podrick. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/6425/

 

7 hours ago, Euron Lannister said:

Stoneheart is hard to guess, i'm not a big fan of her, so i wouldn't mind if she just ends with a sword in her back. but i guess that will not happen so quickly.

As for Jaime and Brienne, I highly doubt jaime's story will end there, an brienne is also unlikely to be killed there imo.

i hope Cat's vow to brienne "pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new." will become relevant in this scene

 

5 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

She's yet to go through with it though. Let her look at Jaime, face to face. I'm willing to bet she hasn't truly committed herself to this course of action. It was merely a means to prevent Pod and Hyle's immediate deaths. As well as her own.

I'm thinking she'll wind up in a not too dissimilar position to Jaime's when he swore to protect Aerys V. 

These are my thoughts, as well as hopes I suppose LOL, when it comes to these three.  I just cannot imagine Brienne walking Jaime to his possible death without a word.  The actual OG vows that Cat CHOSE for Brienne seem to matter, they should, as well as the tapestry blackmail that Cat used with Hunt and Pod. 

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