Jump to content
Black Crow

Heresy 208 Winter is Coming

Recommended Posts

My apologies if this has been pointed out already here, I did not see it, but in a 2014 interview, GRRM had this to say about Daenerys and Tyrion.

Not sure if this four year old interview is considered a spoiler, but I don't want the scary crow to pluck me eyes out :blink:

 

  • Spoiler

     

    As he’s noted before, Martin says the Dothraki are coming back into the story (“in a big way”), and he says “a lot of stuff is happening at The Wall.”

    I also asked Martin about one extremely eagerly anticipated character pairing: Tyrion and Daenerys. What will their interaction be like?

    “Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.”

    That “coming home” should get fans excited—unless Martin was merely speaking metaphorically. (The Targaryen words are “Fire and Blood.”)  http://www.ew.com/article/2014/06/26/george-r-r-martin-winds-winter-tease/

     

    [me speaking] Of course, this could be open to discussion on what "home" is.

     

     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Not sure if this four year old interview is considered a spoiler, but I don't want the scary crow to pluck me eyes out :blink:

Oh, I know that interview! And I have an easy answer...

 

I think "home" refers to Braavos. The house with the red door is mentioned almost in every book, and we've been told several times that this is the closest thing to home for Dany. Westeros would be as alien to her as Qarth. She may not go back with the best intentions, though. As for Tyrion, if you subscribe to the theory that the Sailor's Wife is Tysha and Lana is Tyrion's daughter, well... home is where the heart is, and Dany is due a betrayal for love.

Edited by The Coconut God

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

Oh, I know that interview! And I have an easy answer...

 

  Hide contents

I think "home" refers to Braavos. The house with the red door is mentioned almost in every book, and we've been told several times that this is the closest thing to home for Dany. Westeros would be as alien to her as Qarth. She may not go back with the best intentions, though. As for Tyrion, if you ascribe to the theory that the Sailor's Wife is Tysha and Lana is Tyrion's daughter, well... home is where the heart is, and Dany is due a betrayal for love.

 

Hmmm, could be. I think she will go there not matter what at some point. I tend to think...

Spoiler

that the red door is Drogon and Dany second lifeing herself into Drogon for whatever reason or situation. Aside from the many possible hints to this in ASOAIF, GRRM has done this with every other Dany protoype and their respective ship/vessel in his other stories. Yes ^_^, of course he could change his mind, but so far he seems to be following the same plot points in each iteration. 

Dany's red door is Bran's black gate. These two are the ice and fire of the story.

Or not :dunno:

 

p.s.

Do we need to use the secret eye in this thread because of this interview information? I know it can be tedious for others trying to read along... and I kind of hate it. <_<

Edited by The Fattest Leech

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

My apologies if this has been pointed out already here, I did not see it, but in a 2014 interview, GRRM had this to say about Daenerys and Tyrion.

Not sure if this four year old interview is considered a spoiler, but I don't want the scary crow to pluck me eyes out :blink:

 

  •   Hide contents

     

    As he’s noted before, Martin says the Dothraki are coming back into the story (“in a big way”), and he says “a lot of stuff is happening at The Wall.”

    I also asked Martin about one extremely eagerly anticipated character pairing: Tyrion and Daenerys. What will their interaction be like?

    “Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.”

    That “coming home” should get fans excited—unless Martin was merely speaking metaphorically. (The Targaryen words are “Fire and Blood.”)  http://www.ew.com/article/2014/06/26/george-r-r-martin-winds-winter-tease/

     

    [me speaking] Of course, this could be open to discussion on what "home" is.

     

    I doubt that its metaphorical given that Valyria has been expressly ruled out.

  • As to what "home" is, the phrase used is "coming home", ie; to Westeros. If it was to be somewhere else it would be "going home".

  •  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hmmm, could be. I think she will go there not matter what at some point. I tend to think...

  Hide contents

that the red door is Drogon and Dany second lifeing herself into Drogon for whatever reason or situation. Aside from the many possible hints to this in ASOAIF, GRRM has done this with every other Dany protoype and their respective ship/vessel in his other stories. Yes ^_^, of course he could change his mind, but so far he seems to be following the same plot points in each iteration. 

Dany's red door is Bran's black gate. These two are the ice and fire of the story.

Or not :dunno:

 

I'm not familiar with that theory... who knows? Although I think the dragons are more likely to bite the bucket than Dany after they served their narrative purpose.

As for Braavos (I'm not going to hide it, it's several speculative jumps removed from the actual interview), I do think it will play a part no matter what, but it would be more interesting if the stakes were higher for it than "who will pay back the Iron Bank" and "should we kill the dragons on principle?".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

If you still want to believe he's following the outline, that is your choice, but you can't use it as an argument against other interpretations of the text when George himself categorically dismissed it.

Nobody thinks he's following the series summary (not an outline) exactly.   Of course there have been many changes. 

The point is that, beyond any possible debate, yes... GRRM has repeatedly said, both in 1993 and later, that he intended Dany to come to Westeros.  Certainly he has, and he's never said differently at any time.

Your argument, as I understand it, is that it doesn't matter what he said.  You propose that he's changed his mind since.  And your take is that we know he has because he parked Dany in Meereen for most of ADWD.

Problematic for this position is that GRRM has flat-out told us... over and over, for eighteen years now in interviews... why he parked her in Meereen.  It was:

• To give her, and other characters, time to age and become more plausible in executing their future roles

• To give her dragons time to get bigger and more formidable too

• To explore Aragorn's tax policy, which is to say, the complexities of governing (though he knows this bores us)

Now, he failed to age his characters in this way -- either with a simple five-year gap or by writing out the gap -- because he never came close to writing five years of story in the last two books.   So now he's giving up and just giving us characters he sees as too young for their roles (which is another thing he's said outright at various times).

But at no time does he say he means to leave Dany in Essos for the rest of the series.   If you think you can find an interview in which he does say that -- thus contradicting the multiple times GRRM has told us she is coming to Westeros with her dragons -- by all means, bring it to our attention, and viel Glück to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

the core story was and still is about Westeros

Another all-but-irrefutable point IMO.   It's just not possible for the Popsicles to conquer all Westeros in only two more books, which would be necessary for Essos to become the main stage.  

In fact, I would be surprised if GRRM can even get the Popsicles south of the Neck by the end of the series.  It's just not in him to speed things up.

This, of course, assumes the end of the series will even exist, a concept of ever-diminishing probability.  

It's notable that GRRM seriously thought in August of 2015 that he could finish TWOW by NYE of that same year... but as of yesterday we find that in April 2018, three years down the road, he is assuring us he can't possibly finish TWOW by NYE 2018.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

 

  •   Reveal hidden contents

     

    As he’s noted before, Martin says the Dothraki are coming back into the story (“in a big way”), and he says “a lot of stuff is happening at The Wall.”

    I also asked Martin about one extremely eagerly anticipated character pairing: Tyrion and Daenerys. What will their interaction be like?

    “Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.”

    That “coming home” should get fans excited—unless Martin was merely speaking metaphorically. (The Targaryen words are “Fire and Blood.”)  http://www.ew.com/article/2014/06/26/george-r-r-martin-winds-winter-tease/

     

    [me speaking] Of course, this could be open to discussion on what "home" is.

     

    I doubt that its metaphorical given that Valyria has been expressly ruled out.

  •  
  • As to what "home" is, the phrase used is "coming home", ie; to Westeros. If it was to be somewhere else it would be "going home".

I do agree with this. GRRM has been clear about Valyria for a while now. I am not holding my breath for that, except maybe a flashback-flame vision thing, and IF that.

Good point on "coming home". That reads as though GRRM has his feet planted in Westeros, and he thinks of Dany and Tyrion as coming back to where he is. My suspicions about what the red door is to Dany happens after she arrives back in Westeros, and after she makes her stops along the way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JNR said:

The point is that, beyond any possible debate, yes... GRRM has repeatedly said, both in 1993 and later, that he intended Dany to come to Westeros.  Certainly he has, and he's never said differently at any time.

The most recent interview I found where he explicitly said that was from December 2000, which I quoted. After he started working on Feast/Dance, he stopped being so blunt, and it is highly likely that his goals changed. Certainly the difficulties in writing these two books, as well as Winds, hint that he is doing a lot of iterative work and experimentation with the story.

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Problematic for this position is that GRRM has flat-out told us... over and over, for eighteen years now in interviews... why he parked her in Meereen.  It was:

To give her, and other characters, time to age and become more plausible in executing their future roles

• To give her dragons time to get bigger and more formidable too

• To explore Aragorn's tax policy, which is to say, the complexities of governing (though he knows this bores us)

Now, he failed to age his characters in this way -- either with a simple five-year gap or by writing out the gap -- because he never came close to writing five years of story in the last two books.   So now he's giving up and just giving us characters he sees as too young for their roles (which is another thing he's said outright at various times).

Careful that we don't slip into a circular argument. You brought up the bolded part before, and the link you provided showed that it applied to some of the younger characters, yes, but not to Dany. A lot of what you're saying here are personal assumptions that you are treating as facts.

And this isn't just about Meereen. You can explain Meereen away with Aragorn's tax policy and a need to show Dany's growth as a leader. Maybe. But George also introduces a few other plot points that really aren't needed unless he plans to do something with them:

  • The Volantene army, Benerro's preaching, the Widow of the Waterfront and the potential slave rebellion in Volantis.
  • Qarth reentering the story and turning against Dany.

George could have avoided these by deliberately keeping the conflict regional. Especially after abandoning the 5 years gap, he could have argued that it was too soon for the the other Free Cities to truly feel the impact Dany made on the slave trade. A regional conflict could have been easily resolved with the introduction of the Dothraki, allowing Dany to leave for Westeros immediately.

He didn't do that, though. He built up all those plot points about Volantis that need to pay off now. Sure, you can say this is a result of excessive world building and a lack of proper editing, and you may be right, but it's still a weak argument, because until TWoW is released you don't have any proof, only assumptions.

  • Establishing the Tattered Prince character and the fact that he wants Pentos.

This stands out even more, because it's something he could have easily avoided. It would have been easy to create a scenario in which Quentin didn't need the Tattered Prince, or the Tattered Prince wanted something else, or he used Brown Ben's men instead. But he not only established this plot point, he made it into a big shocker, the last line of a chapter.

Because of this single line, we know that the Tattered Prince must get an expanded role in TWoW (he will at least give us information about Illyrio's plots), and potentially that there may be some political drama or military action around Pentos. Again, if the goal was to barrel down towards Westeros, he could have saved himself a lot of trouble by striking down this single line.

  • Placing Mellario Martell in Norvos and using Areo Hotah as an indirect means to introduce us to the city.

This one is very interesting. First of all, in my newer edition of AGoT, Mellario Martell and even Areo Hotah are mentioned in the list of houses at the end. I know the books get updated with every version in order to maintain consistency, so I'd be curious to know if earlier editions (pre AFFC) still mention that Mellario is from Norvos (I sincerely doubt they mention Hotah, but I might be surprised).

In the actual story, this is only established in AFFC, and it is particularly puzzling, because Hotah, being somewhat of a throwaway character whose only purpose is to be in the same room as Doran, could have been from literally anywhere on the planet. He could have been an old Targaryen loyalist, a Summer Islander, a Dornishman from the mountains, a Volantene, a Ghiscari... anything. He could have offered us a window into more prominent places and more interesting cultures. But George chose Norvos, and made Hotah an ex slave, so we can tell that Norvos is a slaver city.

And he chose to place Mellario there, when she could have easily been in Sunspear, or out of the way at the Water Gardens, or six feet under, and to show us hints of how emotional she can get about her son. While most people probably ignored her completely, I can't help but be reminded about the small, oblique mentions of Stannis we got in AGoT, before he actually showed up as a character.

Edited by The Coconut God

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Good point on "coming home". That reads as though GRRM has his feet planted in Westeros, and he thinks of Dany and Tyrion as coming back to where he is. My suspicions about what the red door is to Dany happens after she arrives back in Westeros, and after she makes her stops along the way.

It could also be metaphorical in the sense of "accepting who they are/what they want". I'm not sure how "coming home" is more likely to mean Westeros than "going home". The latter seems more straight-forward regardless of where the speaker sees himself, while the former is open to interpretation.

And I don't know why you both seem to think Essos can't be important without Valyria. Valyria is to Essos what the Lands of Always Winter are to Westeros, a desolate land where humans can't survive for long. Why would George focus on them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forgot to address this point (again):

2 hours ago, JNR said:

But at no time does he say he means to leave Dany in Essos for the rest of the series.   If you think you can find an interview in which he does say that -- thus contradicting the multiple times GRRM has told us she is coming to Westeros with her dragons -- by all means, bring it to our attention, and viel Glück to you.

It is absurd to expect George to reveal potential major plot twists in interviews, especially on his own accord. Even your precious summary was revealed as a leak.

We make deductions based on the text, we debate them, and maybe someone who has the chance to meet with George will ask him a question, and he will either deny the theory or make a cryptic, potentially revealing comment that we can talk about.

Just because George didn't go on record to confirm it doesn't mean the theory is wrong... and considering how much he likes to rewrite stuff, the reverse is also true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

We make deductions based on the text...

 

Here's a good place to start, on the question of Dany's "home":

Quote

Dany had never known a home. In Braavos, there had been a house with a red door, but that was all... 

Westeros. Home. But if she left, what would happen to her city? Meereen was never your city, her brother's voice seemed to whisper. Your cities are across the sea. Your Seven Kingdoms, where your enemies await you. You were born to serve them blood and fire...

The next morning Dany woke as full of hope as she had been since first she came to Slaver's Bay. Daario would soon be at her side once more, and together they would sail for Westeros. For home.    [5.16 — DAENERYS]

 

Edited by The Snowfyre Chorus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Here's a good place to start, on the question of Dany's "home":

Quote

 

Dany had never known a home. In Braavos, there had been a house with a red door, but that was all... 

Westeros. Home. But if she left, what would happen to her city? Meereen was never your city, her brother's voice seemed to whisper. Your cities are across the sea. Your Seven Kingdoms, where your enemies await you. You were born to serve them blood and fire...

The next morning Dany woke as full of hope as she had been since first she came to Slaver's Bay. Daario would soon be at her side once more, and together they would sail for Westeros. For home.    [5.16 — DAENERYS

 

 

Yes, and the whole point of that chapter was that she refused the temptation, assumed responsibility for the people whose lives she changed, and stayed in Meereen, where she had become queen through her own strength rather than birthright. Classic character growth.

The way you and others see it, Xaro, who is trying to get rid of her for the sake of his own profits, Viserys, who was always a clueless lunatic, and Jorah, who is torn between using her because he wants to go home and staying loyal because he lusts after her, are all voices of reason pushing stubborn, dumb Dany on the right, plot-ordained path, because the Gods know that bitch doesn't know what she's supposed to do on her own!

If she just up and abandons her character development and her self-imposed goals because she had a plot-induced Jorah hallucination, her "going home" will end up looking more like this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nevertheless, what it also establishes very clearly is that Danaerys regards Westeros as home and going home is going home to Westeros.

No matter how much you might want to believe otherwise this story is about Westeros and its peoples

Edited by Black Crow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

The way you and others see it, Xaro, who is trying to get rid of her for the sake of his own profits, Viserys, who was always a clueless lunatic, and Jorah, who is torn between using her because he wants to go home and staying loyal because he lusts after her, are all voices of reason pushing stubborn, dumb Dany on the right, plot-ordained path, because the Gods know that bitch doesn't know what she's supposed to do on her own!

 

Lol. Okay. How about this one? This is the moment Dany realizes her brother was such a loser, and the moment immediately before she grows up and begins taking charge of her life:

Quote

"What do you pray for, Ser Jorah?" she asked him.

"Home," he said. His voice was thick with longing.

"I pray for home too," she told him, believing it.

Ser Jorah laughed. "Look around you then, Khaleesi."

But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King's Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind's eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind's eye, all the doors were red.

"My brother will never take back the Seven Kingdoms," Dany said. She had known that for a long time, she realized. She had known it all her life. Only she had never let herself say the words, even in a whisper, but now she said them for Jorah Mormont and all the world to hear.

Ser Jorah gave her a measuring look. "You think not."

"He could not lead an army even if my lord husband gave him one," Dany said. "He has no coin and the only knight who follows him reviles him as less than a snake. The Dothraki make mock of his weakness. He will never take us home."

"Wise child." The knight smiled.

"I am no child," she told him fiercely. Her heels pressed into the sides of her mount, rousing the silver to a gallop. Faster and faster she raced, leaving Jorah and Irri and the others far behind, the warm wind in her hair and the setting sun red on her face. By the time she reached the khalasar, it was dusk...   [AGOT 1.23 — DAENERYS]

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or this passage, which is near the very end of the last Daenerys POV in ADWD:

Quote

...The stream will take me to the river, and the river will take me home.

Except it wouldn't, not truly.

Meereen was not her home, and never would be. It was a city of strange men with strange gods and stranger hair, of slavers wrapped in fringed tokars, where grace was earned through whoring, butchery was art, and dog was a delicacy. Meereen would always be the Harpy's city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy.

Never, said the grass, in the gruff tones of Jorah Mormont. You were warned, Your Grace. Let this city be, I said. Your war is in Westeros, I told you.

The voice was no more than a whisper, yet somehow Danny felt that he was walking just behind her. My bear, she thought, my old sweet bear, who loved me and betrayed me. She had missed him so. She wanted to see his ugly face, to wrap her arms around him and press herself against his chest, but she knew that if she turned around Ser Jorah would be gone. "I am dreaming," she said. "A waking dream, a walking dream. I am alone and lost."

Lost, because you lingered, in a place that you were never meant to be, murmured Ser Jorah, as softly as the wind. Alone, because you sent me from your side.

"You betrayed me. You informed on me, for gold."

For home. Home was all I ever wanted.

...I gave you good counsel. Save your spears and swords for the Seven Kingdoms, I told you. Leave Meereen to the Meereenese and go west, I said. You would not listen.

"I had to take Meereen or see my children starve along the march." Dany could still see the trail of corpses she had left behind her crossing the Red Waste. It was not a sight she wished to see again. "I had to take Meereen to feed my people."

You took Meereen, he told her, yet still you lingered.

"To be a queen."

You are a queen, her bear said. In Westeros.

"It is such a long way," she complained. "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees.  Remember that.  Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.  [5.71 - DAENERYS]

 

Edited by The Snowfyre Chorus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Nevertheless, what it also establishes very clearly is that Danaerys regards Westeros as home and going home is going home to Westeros.

40 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Lol. Okay. How about this one? This is the moment Dany realizes her brother was such a loser, and the moment immediately before she grows up and begins taking charge of her life:

You are both conveniently ignoring the fact that Dany has no personal memories of Westeros, only glorified fantasies her brother fed into her head. She dreams of Westeros because she was taught she was supposed to. Various characters who do remember Westeros and have a personal desire to return, like Viserys, Jorah, Barristan, keep pushing her and telling her that is her destiny for their own reasons. Don't confuse what they say with what she thinks, that's just poor interpretation of the text. In fact, in both of the quotes you presented, the underlying symbol for home is precisely the house with the red door:

Quote

It was King's Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind's eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind's eye, all the doors were red.

Here you see a subconscious overlap of what she was taught "home" means - KIng's Landing and Dragonstone - and what she accepts as "home" in her heart, the house with the red door.

Learning to dissociate herself from other people's dreams and live her own life is a sign of character growth and maturity, so when Dany decides to stay in Meereen, it is a great moment for her, even though some readers may cry "her plot slowed down". And a good decision too, because the reality is that Westeros isn't really the dream home Viserys talked about, but a place where most people don't even remember her name, and those who do are likely to see her as the Mad King's daughter.

Quote

Or this passage, which is near the very end of the last Daenerys POV in ADWD:

That is exactly the passage I referred to in the previous post. Dany is at her weakest moment there, and she is haunted by visions of doubt that ultimately make her embrace her family words (for better or for worse).

That doesn't mean the visions are 100% correct. If they are meant to be 100% correct, that means Dany's character development in the whole book is piss, and the message is she should have just listened to Jorah. I hope that's not where George was going with that chapter, because it would be the epitome of misogyny and would reflect very poorly on her arc as a whole as well as the way her relationship with Jorah is portrayed.

A much better outcome would be that she overcomes her doubts and guilt and applies her revelation to the goal she set for herself. That she will stop trying to pander to the Ghiscari and seek peace with the slavers and simply make them accept her demands with fire and blood.

It is astonishing really that people would want a character to be awfully written just to move the plot ahead into a preconceived direction.

Edited by The Coconut God

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

It is astonishing really that people would want a character to be awfully written just to move the plot ahead into a preconceived direction.

The problem, as always, is that it's GRRM's preconception, not ours, as you have repeatedly agreed.

If Dany conquering Westeros is (as you say) a pipe dream, then it's a pipe dream that governed GRRM's mind as he wrote the bulk of the canon from 1993-2000.

Your position: That he realized, after 2000, that two-thirds of his original story was bad writing and changed his mind to do radically different stuff.

Well, it's possible, of course.  Let's assume for now that you're right.

Tell us how you picture GRRM plausibly concluding all the Westeros storylines and shifting the tale to Essos as the primary stage.  Tell us how he does that in the less-than-two-books he has left.

Bear in mind we've already read a seventh of TWOW, and it shows no sign of such a stupendous narrative reorchestration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

You are both conveniently ignoring the fact that Dany has no personal memories of Westeros, only glorified fantasies her brother fed into her head. She dreams of Westeros because she was taught she was supposed to. Various characters who do remember Westeros and have a personal desire to return, like Viserys, Jorah, Barristan, keep pushing her and telling her that is her destiny for their own reasons. Don't confuse what they say with what she thinks, that's just poor interpretation of the text. In fact, in both of the quotes you presented, the underlying symbol for home is precisely the house with the red door...

It is astonishing really that people would want a character to be awfully written just to move the plot ahead into a preconceived direction.

Whether there are doubts about the red door or not both GRRM's statements and Danaerys' beliefs establish Westeros as her home.

You are entitled to your belief and your're entitled to argue for it. We've cheerfully discussed it, but with no-one lining up behind you it needs a far more convincingly evidenced argument as to why a story which is and always has been about Westeros should shift so radically at this stage in the game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Furthermore, as I pointed out earlier an exodus to Essos makes absolutely no sense in relation to Jon. He is a son of Winterfell; that is his gift and his curse. It is what defines him and his part in this story and his part in resolving this will be played out in or around Winterfell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×